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#121 of 143 Old 03-21-2009, 07:54 PM
 
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This is a caustic woman.

ETA: And your response is awesome, Kimya. Thank you for posting it.
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#122 of 143 Old 03-21-2009, 08:29 PM
 
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I'm glad to hear they did change the music promptly upon your request. Interestingly, unless I missed it on my quick 2nd look at the end of the 4th clip just now, the podcast no longer credits anyone for the music used.

Kimya, where can I buy your music? I want to say "thanks for standing up for breastfeeding" in a way that means something.
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#123 of 143 Old 03-21-2009, 08:37 PM
 
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Thank you. I wish I had more time to work on a reply was trying to check my email quickly before having to run out and meet someone, all with my 32mo DD hanging off the breast.

It is an angry scattered response. Oh well.

I think it might be spam to tell you where to buy my stuff, but it isn't so hard to find!

I just hope no one takes this woman seriously. And everyone keeps on nursing!
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#124 of 143 Old 03-23-2009, 05:36 AM
 
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It would probably be a UA violation to post her response to me, but to sum it up. She is right. We're all wrong. I am judgmental. End of story. I have no response. She is horrible.
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#125 of 143 Old 03-23-2009, 10:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
I found another good rebuttal that sort of reiterates some of the good points made in this thread: http://www.momsrising.org/content/ca...g-dirty-secret
Awesome article, thanks for posting this link

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#126 of 143 Old 03-23-2009, 12:22 PM
 
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What a nasty woman. Rosin needs therapy - she's obviously unbalanced, bitter, and suffering from huge self-confidence issues. I haven't posted in this thread before only because I didn't feel there was a point repeating what others were saying. I cannot believe she'd use someone's intellectual property in a public forum and then blame the artist for sticking up for herself and her beliefs? Wow...really...wow.

:
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#127 of 143 Old 03-23-2009, 12:26 PM
 
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Just a reminder- I know this is very frustrating and it makes me angry as well. But we need to keep the User Agreement in mind when posting:
Quote:
Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
A good guideline would be to attack the article, not the author (no matter how deserved it may be).

Thanks, all!

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#128 of 143 Old 03-23-2009, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chs89 View Post
What a nasty woman. Rosin needs therapy - she's obviously unbalanced, bitter, and suffering from huge self-confidence issues. I haven't posted in this thread before only because I didn't feel there was a point repeating what others were saying. I cannot believe she'd use someone's intellectual property in a public forum and then blame the artist for sticking up for herself and her beliefs? Wow...really...wow.
Yeah that.

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#129 of 143 Old 03-24-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
Just a reminder- I know this is very frustrating and it makes me angry as well. But we need to keep the User Agreement in mind when posting:


A good guideline would be to attack the article, not the author (no matter how deserved it may be).

Thanks, all!
I want to thank annettemarie for being an excellent moderator on this explosive post and for her great support over the years.
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#130 of 143 Old 03-25-2009, 09:39 AM
 
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Have you sent this in to the Atlantic yet?
You have written a brilliant critique and deconstruction of the article.

:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursimama View Post
Besides Rosin not clearly articulating the issue of maternity leave and the lack of family and child supports available in the U.S., she also does not really clarify the social context from within which her musings arise. Rosin is part of a wealthy, elite groups of educated moms (I count myself as part of this lucky, privileged group--so I'm not bashing here) who have become aware of the advantages of breastfeeding and have the time and privilege to do so. The women she speaks of who back away from her at the playground when she brings up early weaning and formula are women quite unlike the majority of Americans. Most Americans DO formula feed. Writers like Rosin trump up the argument that women are under terrible pressure to breastfeed, when the reality for most Americans is that they are under pressure to NOT breastfeed. So, Rosin's gloss on the current tenor of the "debate" is completely skewed toward her small social milieu. Her article is really a deconstructing of her own responses to the pressures she feels within this group, but it simply does not reflect the wider American pressure to NOT breastfeed. Another issue that is not addressed in her article and one which I think should be aired here and in other forums is that due to the minority status of breastfeeding mothers, such mothers and parents in general develop a strong and at times hostile stance against formula feeding families. I believe this is a way to stay strong in the face of such hostility toward breastfeeding. The reactions from the other mothers Rosin describes is typical of those of us who have succeeded in breastfeeding our children (my daughter was 4 years and 1 month when we weaned) despite all the difficulties. The media, our neighbors, our fellow citizens, our doctors, our employers, and most importantly the policies that shape our social lives DO NOT support breastfeeding. So, when we do make it through all those challenges and DO breastfeed, it IS disheartening to hear a mother who can breastfeed say that she is not going to. Breastfeeding families do stick together because that is the only way one can do so in an anti-breastfeeding society.
Finally, there is one other thing that I find intriguing about this article and the “mommy wars” it represents. There seems to be, in the popular media, a cry to stop the “mommy wars.” I think this is part of the American notion that everyone should calm down and not take life too seriously. I also think this is part of the peculiar American notion that “life is good” (my new most hated catchphrase). Folks, life is interesting, life is challenging, life is unbelievably strange, but human life is much more complicated then “good.” Mothers and others who are activitists, who are passionate (about breastfeeding for example), who feel strongly, are seen as odd. American popular culture is about ease, instant gratification, and being “chill” (another one of my most hated catchphrases). Heat, intensity, debate, and passion are what make social change. There is a general tone I glean in popular discussion on breast versus formula that says we should take the easy route. I think this is one of Rosin’s core messages. Most breastfeeding families will tell you how hard it is to breastfeed and they are grateful for the complexity, messiness, and learning that they went through. Thus breastfeeding families also have to work against the ideology of ease everyday. This ideology permeates American society and Rosin and others like her don’t penetrate deeply into this layer of the contexts of breastfeeding.
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#131 of 143 Old 03-25-2009, 10:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ursimama View Post
Besides Rosin not clearly articulating the issue of maternity leave and the lack of family and child supports available in the U.S., she also does not really clarify the social context from within which her musings arise.
This post absolutely sums up the fatal flaw in the Rosin article.
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#132 of 143 Old 03-25-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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I'm not going to say much because it's already been said, and probably better than I could have said it.

The article is just madening:! There is more to bfing than just health benefits, she obviously doesn't get this.

wife to DH 6/25/05, mama to DS 5/26/08 & DS2 9/1/10
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#133 of 143 Old 03-31-2009, 02:29 PM
 
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I edited it a little and sent it in. Here is the link to the Letters to the Editor section of their site.
I urge all of us to send letters. Kimya, it would be very cool if you sent one in about the misuse of your music. It is interesting that her blog posting about you is written in the same smug tone as her article. That is upsetting. I think part of being a writer is creating a persona, but when that persona starts to shape your ability to think and how you treat real people, that's a sad thing.
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#134 of 143 Old 04-03-2009, 02:21 AM
 
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In the NY Times today, there is more support of the Atlantic article....
I wrote a comment on the blog.
http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...mped-the-pump/
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#135 of 143 Old 04-03-2009, 12:02 PM
 
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Ursimama, I also love your response.

So, all these long working hours to support bf mothers (very often unpaid) are put in by some members of the "over-achieving circles" whose sole purpose in life is to make ff mothers feel guilty. So much for the "nearest enemy" as one pp called it.

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#136 of 143 Old 04-03-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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This was my response:

Reading the Breastfeeding article written by Ms. Rosin made me sick to my stomach. Breastfeeding is natural, its what is supposed to happen when you have a baby. Seeing as only 17% of women in this country breastfeed past 6 months, we should be APPLAUDING them and not slinging mud at them for making others feel bad for not doing it. This is a sick society we have!

If you don't want to nurse, then don't but making a case against breastfeeding is ridiculous. The case is already against it, no need to point out that its good for baby but not worth all the work. The formula companies did a good job of that already, no need to write more ignorant nonsense to get rid of your own personal guilt.

Next time you want to write an interesting article, make it something worth reading and not put down women who are trying their hardest to do what they think is best for their babies. Better yet, use some common sense and write against the poor culture we have for mothers.
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#137 of 143 Old 04-04-2009, 09:22 AM
 
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I've been reading here and there and talking to folks about the article, and I've uncovered something I think is of interest. I keep hearing parents who are formula feeders talk about how difficult physically to nurse. It was for me, too. We prepare folks poorly to breast feed! If you don't grow up watching all moms do it and you don't really have classes or are determined, then it will be hard. Two of my college students talked about how painful and difficult it was and that they stopped after a day of trying with their newborns. It's like trying to make this huge commitment and physical/emotional/mental switch in a matter of hours, and right after giving birth. We are so anti-bfing as a society! It doesn't surprise me that so many moms and dads give up almost right away. I just feel sad thinking about this right now.
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#138 of 143 Old 04-04-2009, 09:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursimama View Post
I've been reading here and there and talking to folks about the article, and I've uncovered something I think is of interest. I keep hearing parents who are formula feeders talk about how difficult physically to nurse. It was for me, too. We prepare folks poorly to breast feed! If you don't grow up watching all moms do it and you don't really have classes or are determined, then it will be hard. Two of my college students talked about how painful and difficult it was and that they stopped after a day of trying with their newborns. It's like trying to make this huge commitment and physical/emotional/mental switch in a matter of hours, and right after giving birth. We are so anti-bfing as a society! It doesn't surprise me that so many moms and dads give up almost right away. I just feel sad thinking about this right now.
I really don't agree w/ this. Yes, if we saw more mothers breastfeeding, it would be easier, but I don't think it would make it easy.

If people saw the value of breastfeeding, then they would try for longer than a day, they would be more invested in making it work. People seem to see bf'ing as just a little better than ff'ing (which is why I hate the breast is best stuff) so if they can't bf, then well, ff'ing isn't so bad. I'm not negating anyones difficulties, I'm just trying to say that as a society, we want things to be easy or we give up. If it's not, we quit. I think we see this in many areas of our lives: divorce, people wanting to loose weight w/o having to do anything, etc. It's not just bf'ing.

Parenting isn't easy - difficulty w/ bf'ing may just be the first problem that arises for parents but it is the first of many difficulties.

Sus

Baby the babies while they're babies so they don't need babying for a lifetime.
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#139 of 143 Old 04-11-2009, 03:03 PM
 
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I was really disappointed in the article. I went to the Atlantic Monthly site and tried to send a letter to the editor (couldn't find the link on the site).

But it's probably best if I don't send a letter right now because I am so disappointed. Not mad but disappointed, for a few reasons. First, I honestly cannot believe the scenario that Rosin presents and that she tested anecdotally several times--that women breastfeeding would be so judgmental about someone who wants to quit after a month.

I do think it is a personal choice and I wouldn't judge anyone for bottlefeeding their baby with formula or supplementing with formula.

Unfortunately, I've had the experience of being judged FOR breastfeeding or of having people (MIL and mom) try to talk me out of breastfeeding. But--and this is hard to explain--I wouldn't use my experiences as being criticized for breastfeeding as a basis to bash breastfeeding and attempt to write a "literature review" that doesn't really look at the scientific data. Which supports the benefits of breastmilk.

Second, I actually think breastfeeding is, in the long run, easier to manage that bottlefeeding. However, I am a stay at home mom and I wouldn't assume the same for a mom who WOTH.

Finally, I think the purpose of the article is disingenuous. The article just seems like an invective "let's get back at those women who ostracised me for wanting to stop breastfeeding."

Which is fine if the article were clearly designated as a personal opinion piece. That fact that it's a pseudoscience literature review and that the Atlantic is publishing it as such is disappointing.
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#140 of 143 Old 04-12-2009, 08:20 PM
 
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Peggy O' Mara's response to the article:
Case Closed: Breast Is Best

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#141 of 143 Old 04-13-2009, 11:18 PM
 
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I have been thinking about this article, and my response to it, since about the day it came out. I think in some ways it is acting as a mirror, showing us whatever we bring to it.

The posts on here are certainly interesting. I particularly agree with Ursimama's post. My own biggest critique of the article is along the lines of American society and the support it gives/ fails to give.

But I also saw in the article some affirmation of my own opinions. First about the life of a WOH mom and why I BF anyway. Second, getting comfortable with doing what our family had to do in order to stay sane and keep our LO healthy.

I did not have the SAHM option, at least not to maintain a lifestyle similar to what we are accustomed. What made sense to us financially was to have a SAHD. There are times I think that a SAHD and BF Mom has given DS the best of both of us.

I wanted to EBF, wanted it very badly. I intended him to only get formula over my dead body… until that nearly happened. I ended up hospitalized in the ICU during DS’s second week. I had to pump-and-dump for two days. I think those four rough days were the start of DS’s nighmares/night terrors and a big reason for his high-needs personality.

I pumped from the day I returned to work at 8 weeks until he was 8 months, and I still BF my 19-mo-old. But no matter whether I took two, 30-minute or three, 20-minute pumping breaks in my ~8 hour days, I always ended up with 6-10 oz of BM, usually 8. DS almost always drank it ALL the very next workday, often finishing it in the morning. Plus 2-4 oz of formula, sometimes more in a growth spurt. If we met to BF over lunch, I would barely get anything at the mid-afternoon pumping session (assuming that my work schedule had room left for pumping after taking the time out to eat/BF)… which meant there was even less BM for DS the next day.

I almost never could pump at home. If I was home, DS needed me. All my sick leave and most of my vacation time went into bringing my pay up to full during my maternity leave. I had precious few days of paid leave to take a “nursing day” at home, and I used them as judiciously as I could.

On top of this, my mother was diagnosed with a rare and deadly cancer during my pregnancy. A few short weeks after my hospitalization, she was hospitalized with pneumonia, and the three of us ended up flying up to visit her.

Oh, and a few months before we got pregnant, my FIL fell off a roof, major head and spinal cord injuries, he’s confined to a wheelchair. FIL and MIL did make the two-day drive for DS’s birth (their first grandchild), but I got the distinct impression he was not going to do that again. Flying is even less accessible.

My job was stressful, the extended family situation was stressful, adjusting to the new baby and our life at home was stressful. The new expenses, the loss of DH’s small income, and the threat of having to fly at a moments notice to address another extended family emergency all were putting pressure on our finances.

We could not afford to lose pay from me working part-time or shorter hours. If I came home early one day to help with a growth spurt, I needed to try and make up that time later in the pay period. I even tried bringing work home to work a few hours over the weekends, but that was as bad as pumping for taking my attention from DS.

I was the only one doing the work I was doing. If I didn’t do it, it didn’t get done. And frequently the program I worked on depended on me getting that work done. (This lack of support/backup was among the reasons I transferred to a different job closer to family.)

When we did not supplement with formula, DH was often stuck with a fussy, hungry, crying baby. ALL AFTERNOON. BM gone before noon. No relatives around to help out, and most of our friends worked days. I would come home from a stressful, busy, run-run-run, “all break time spent pumping” day on the job, to relieve DH from his stressful, busy, day at home alone with infant.

DS' growth was happening, but slowly. When he was born at 95th percentile height and 50th percentile weight, there’s room to change curves. It just felt like he wasn’t on a “normal” growth curve.

All of which goes to say that being a mom is stressful no matter what. To us, supplementing was not about “relaxing that DH can ff while Mom goes shopping.” FF was about keeping LO happy and fed after the expressed BM was all drunk up and Mom couldn’t get home for another 3+ hours. It was about keeping DH sane at home 24/7/365 so that he might actually ENJOY his son. And it stopped me from using “ounces pumped” as a measure of my success or failure as a mom.

Once I realized that it was all about doing my best and not worrying about being perfect, life got easier. That realization came about 3-4 weeks into my return to work, when DS was about 3 months old. That realization is what allowed me to NOT give up on BF completely, but to continue to BF AND PUMP as much as I could. I would even say that THAT is what took the pressure off so that I could enjoy breastfeeding. I did EBF on weekends and holidays, and I am still BFing my toddler.

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#142 of 143 Old 05-01-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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Well, this article sure seems to get attention. I just found a link on a German feminist website. Just what many women have been waiting to hear it seems.

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#143 of 143 Old 05-02-2009, 02:02 AM
 
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Have you all received the new copy of Mothering? Peggy O'Mara wrote the BEST response to this article! So informative... THANK YOU Peggy!!!:
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