What if new moms had to sign a waiver? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-07-2009, 02:37 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie19 View Post
While I understand being worried about other people's feelings, the fact is the misinformations about bfing run rampant and while I don't exactly agree with a waiver like this, I do think more bfing information needs to be presented prenatally, BEFORE the kid is here and the choice is done, a kid has to be fed pretty much right away, so telling people the danger then isn't really effective.
i agree with this on some level. i think the biggest load of crap out there in regards to BF vs FF is that BFing is best but its to hard and since FF is almost as good and much more convenient it is worth it. not only is it silly its wrong. BFing is more convenient ... yeah the first few weeks are hard (obviously it may take longer for some) but after that its way easier then FF.

Formula companies have money breast feeding activists don't have. they can have commercials and send out tons of crap to every woman in country. i think the breast feeding equivalent of a gay pride parade would make a big difference. seeing tons of women as a community proudly and successfully nursing their children would encourage more women to want to be a part of that. it would let them know that they have a community, mothers of all ages and walks of life nurse their babies. it is normal and it is possible. if we could play videos of nurse ins as commercials that might help to.

people need to feel like part of a community. reaching out and making sure women know about the support they have in the breast feeding community would be beneficial. working mom, SAHM mom, single moms, young moms, all need support and community. if the lactivist movement had more visibility and was represented by all different kinds of mothers and fathers i think we would have more success.
1littlebit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-07-2009, 02:40 PM
 
pumpkinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 4,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This waiver thing puts me to mind of those instances where women belonging to LLL were handing out breastfeeding literature in formula aisles of stores.

If someone has already made their choice, why belabour the point? I think asking why they've chosen to ff, asking if they'd like to try BF as well as offering lots of help and support is a better way to go, personally.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
pumpkinhead is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:43 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
This waiver thing puts me to mind of those instances where women belonging to LLL were handing out breastfeeding literature in formula aisles of stores.

If someone has already made their choice, why belabour the point? I think asking why they've chosen to ff, asking if they'd like to try BF as well as offering lots of help and support is a better way to go, personally.
i think talking to women who are pg is one thing. talking to people buying formula looks like your trying to make people feel guilty and lessens our credibility. I think LLL has done amazing things for breast feeding awareness.. i have also noticed that most young moms i have mentioned them to have never heard of them and most non lactivists have negative opinions of them.. not sure why though
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:46 PM
 
claddaghmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
fwiw i think making women feel guilty for FF is what makes many women weary of the Lactivist movement. its just not good marketing. make it strait forward, make it fun, make it well known, and make sure the people who are spreading the word are positive, approachable, and likable. i have never gotten anywhere with anyone talking badly about formula feeding. i make the most headway with people when i talk about whats good about breast feeding.

if your try to talk to another moms about bfing as if you are trying to educate them most of them will just ignore you. no one wants a lecture. i talk to other moms the same way i talk to all of you. why would i rather breast feed? yeah of course its better nutrition but why else? its convenient. it is inexpensive. you don't have to worry about bringing enough food when you leave the house. you don't have to bring much at all when you leave the house. you can feed baby while walking around a store in a sling if you wanted to. you don't have to get up at night to make a bottle if you co sleep. it can be easier to comfort baby with the breast. mostly i try to be up beat and positive and tell them why i personally love it. why i love to breast feed is a much more persuasive argument them why they shouldn't formula feed.

No one can make another person feel guilty. Own the choice. Know the facts. Get the truth.

For those women who have been mistreated by the medical community, it's a tragedy. That doesn't mean we need to hold the party line and let future women and babies become victims.

Why should businesses change? Why should formula companies improve? Why should governments promote human milk? Why should women choose milk over formula?

Unless something changes, they won't. Education is a vital factor, but it is not the only part of the equation.

Think, mamas, think about how entrenched this issue is in our culture. When you go to Target, can you buy a nursing shirt? Millions of women give birth every year, but you can't go to the local store and buy a shirt. The response to women nursing in public is to hide them away in bathroom stalls or special "rooms" right off the bathroom. Baby marketing is saturated with images of bottles. Baby dolls come with bottles.

We have a long way to go. Changing out language is a huge part of this. The language in a society is one of the most important things to a people. The language gives away the value of something...such as how Americans have a million words and phrases for sex and money. Think of the nomadic culture that has over 100 words for "sheep."

Mama to expecting Babe 2
claddaghmom is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:47 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Oh, I definitely agree that accurate information needs to get out there, and I agree that needs to include information on the dangers of elective formula usage. But I vehemently disagree that the time to present that info is right after birth. And I especially disagree with the almost gleeful "gotcha!" tone the scenario in the OP presents.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:48 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
This waiver thing puts me to mind of those instances where women belonging to LLL were handing out breastfeeding literature in formula aisles of stores.

If someone has already made their choice, why belabour the point? I think asking why they've chosen to ff, asking if they'd like to try BF as well as offering lots of help and support is a better way to go, personally.
If they did this, it was absolutely NOT sanctioned by LLL. Just to be clear. La Leche League is not a political group and it's not an anti-formula group. They may have used LLL's name, but this is not a LLL-approved activity. It makes me sick.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:52 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
No one can make another person feel guilty. Own the choice. Know the facts. Get the truth.
I'm sorry, but I think that's patently untrue. I hear that thrown around all the time, probably thanks to that stupid Eleanor Roosevelt quote. The fact of the matter is, people choose their words and actions in such a manner that the goal is to elicit a guilt response all the time. I think it is extremely manipulative to use guilt-inducing language and then say to someone "Well, I didn't make you feel guilty. You chose that!" The waiver, as described in the OP, is designed to elicit guilt and fear.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 03:01 PM
 
claddaghmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
I'm sorry, but I think that's patently untrue. I hear that thrown around all the time, probably thanks to that stupid Eleanor Roosevelt quote. The fact of the matter is, people choose their words and actions in such a manner that the goal is to elicit a guilt response all the time. I think it is extremely manipulative to use guilt-inducing language and then say to someone "Well, I didn't make you feel guilty. You chose that!" The waiver, as described in the OP, is designed to elicit guilt and fear.
I think the assumption with the OP is that at the moment after birth while still in the hospital, the woman is making a choice as opposed to "already made a choice."

But then, many women go on to have more children and they still have to raise those children and pass along values and beliefs to those children. So why is it wrong for someone who has chosen formula to learn about the subject? Again, the focus is still on sacrificing improvement and truth for protecting someone elses self-schema as opposed to making sure human babies get human milk. That is incredibly manipulative; you can't control another individual's feelings and thoughts.

If someone is clearly vulnerable, then yes it makes sense to be compassionate and that might be the biggest weakness to the OP's suggestion. But speaking the truth lovingly does not equal sugar coating it and shaping our culture to deviate from the norm.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
claddaghmom is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 03:04 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Again, I don't disagree that accurate information, including information on the dangers of elective formula feeding, need to be conveyed to pregnant women. But it's the timing--post-birth when it's time for a baby to fed--and the tone of the waiver that I disagree with.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 03:12 PM
 
claddaghmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
Again, I don't disagree that accurate information, including information on the dangers of elective formula feeding, need to be conveyed to pregnant women. But it's the timing--post-birth when it's time for a baby to fed--and the tone of the waiver that I disagree with.

ITA. I like the idea PPs are presenting...about a waiver being required for staff to feed formula. That takes the focus and pressure away from the mother. And IMO it would motivate the staff to make better choices b/c paperwork has legal implications for professionals.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
claddaghmom is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 03:56 PM
 
Bluegoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think maternity hospitals should all be Babyfriendly, I think doctors and midwives should give accurate info on BF, I think there should be support for new moms and appropriate working arrangements for families. All those things are required to have real BF success.

I'm surprised in a way that hospitals don't already have people sign a waiver, given the nature of the others they have to sign. Not so much with regard to things like "lower IQ", but as far as the possibility of contaminated formula or allergic reactions.

But I guess so far no one has been sued over these things, at least not the hospitals. Which makes me wonder - what if people did begin to sue hospitals over pushing formula or sabotaging BF? In cases like tobacco companies, that's when real changes start getting made - when it costs them dear.

That being said, I think living it a litigious society is overall a bad thing.

I do think the waiver idea is an interesting thought experiment - it might be a question to ask people in a pre-natal class - "If the hospital asked you to sign this waiver, what would you think?"

I have noticed so many women, who I know were given at least some BF info, who seem to have no idea of the differences between ff and bf, and also the risks with a manufactured product. They would never give a baby strawberries or honey, but formula is assumed to be always safe. There is a kind of disconnect that is hard to explain.

I'd be more inclined to support formula as a prescription product - I think that could actually make some sense.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
Bluegoat is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 04:55 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 25,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
Think, mamas, think about how entrenched this issue is in our culture. When you go to Target, can you buy a nursing shirt? Millions of women give birth every year, but you can't go to the local store and buy a shirt.
FWIW, I think the idea that you need special clothing to nurse is just fuel for the "it's too hard" fire. I've nursed three children, and the only special items I've ever bought are nursing bras and pads. Nursing in a t-shirt works just fine.

If I'm going to sell someone on the benefits of breastfeeding, one of the things I always pull out is cost. Formula is expensive. If they're being bombarded with ads suggesting they need to invest in a whole new wardrobe to breastfeed, my point is lost. I seriously don't get the point of nursing shirts, to be honest.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 05:32 PM
 
RoadWorkAhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
I'm sorry, but I think that's patently untrue. I hear that thrown around all the time, probably thanks to that stupid Eleanor Roosevelt quote. The fact of the matter is, people choose their words and actions in such a manner that the goal is to elicit a guilt response all the time. I think it is extremely manipulative to use guilt-inducing language and then say to someone "Well, I didn't make you feel guilty. You chose that!" The waiver, as described in the OP, is designed to elicit guilt and fear.
I agree completely.
RoadWorkAhead is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 05:40 PM
 
RoadWorkAhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
FWIW, I think the idea that you need special clothing to nurse is just fuel for the "it's too hard" fire. I've nursed three children, and the only special items I've ever bought are nursing bras and pads. Nursing in a t-shirt works just fine.

If I'm going to sell someone on the benefits of breastfeeding, one of the things I always pull out is cost. Formula is expensive. If they're being bombarded with ads suggesting they need to invest in a whole new wardrobe to breastfeed, my point is lost. I seriously don't get the point of nursing shirts, to be honest.
Very true. I always use the framework that formula feeding isn't nearly as easy as its purported to be now that I've got to do both for different children. I loathe bottle washing, and formula prep, and and and. I point out how little I've bought to breastfeed vs. how much I've bought to formula feed, and how I used to carry a much smaller diaper bag before formula and bottles, etc. DD needs a diaper bag twice the size of her little brother for all that added stuff.
RoadWorkAhead is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 05:51 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
you actually can buy a nursing shirt at target...and nursing bras my target also has breast pumps, moby wraps, nursing covers, BM storage bags, lansinoh lanolin etc. they even have the booby bottles that look like rocket ships.

and as far as getting the information out there... i do agree. ideally people would just here breast is best and immediately breast feed. i mean it makes sense.. and to most of us its a no brainer. but we can work with what should be we have to work with what is. we all know how formula got so prevalent. Drs were telling women their BM was bad for babies... they used fear and guilt and their power as authority figures to push formula... they may have believed it was right.. i don't know. but either way it is roughly two generations later and women still turn to formula. i understand saying we shouldn't worry about feelings.. but when it comes down to it if you don't worry about people's feelings you wont get anywhere. unlike the doctors who pushed formula to begin with we are not authority figures who have that kind of influence.

if you want to make a difference you have to empower women. people respond much more readily to a positive message then a negative one. i think the idea that is the most damaging to breast feeding it is the bizarro idea that you need to distance yourself from your baby so they can be independent. it is very hard to breast feed successfully if you worried about getting to attached.

i think it is especially important to empower breast feeding women because we have to combat the shame that ignorant people cause a nursing mother when they glare at her, make snide comments, or ask her to move. we need to empower women to feed their babies on demand, to not worry about spoiling, scheduling, and babies independence. all of these chip away at a mothers confidence. there are so many things out there completely unrelated to formula that damage breast feeding relationships. don't offer the breast for comfort, only feed every three hours, dont spoil him, dont hold him all the time, dont NIP, dont nurse past a year, dont nurse to sleep, dont comfort baby all the time, if he's nursing more then every 3 hrs wean b/c you have low supply. wean to go on medication, pumping is to difficult wean to go back to work.

all of that chips away at a mothers confidence, her desire to breast feed, it goes against her instincts as a mother. women need to feel empowered, they need to feel confident and proud that they are nursing, they need to have the confidence to follow their instincts in spite of other people's advice.
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 05:53 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kierdan'sMom View Post
Very true. I always use the framework that formula feeding isn't nearly as easy as its purported to be now that I've got to do both for different children. I loathe bottle washing, and formula prep, and and and. I point out how little I've bought to breastfeed vs. how much I've bought to formula feed, and how I used to carry a much smaller diaper bag before formula and bottles, etc. DD needs a diaper bag twice the size of her little brother for all that added stuff.
i do this too. i think lactivists who have also FF for w/e reason are very effective at convincing people who arent sure or who are planning on FF. people don't take it as personally since you have FF so they don't feel like your judging them.
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 05:57 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
the other thing that i think is important is trying to target younger women without children and women who are pg with their first child. of course people can always FF and then BF but i think it is something they need to come to on their own and won't appreciate someone telling them they should have done it differently. especially if they tried BFing and were unsuccessful.

people don't think about BFing until they are pg but they see formula ads, baby bottles, etc their whole lives. it is not just a mother issue it is a women's issue... all women should have faith in themselves to feed and care for their child. women shouldn't have to be bombarded with propaganda that undermines their confidence in themselves and their bodies.
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:03 PM
 
limabean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,431
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
ITA. I like the idea PPs are presenting...about a waiver being required for staff to feed formula. That takes the focus and pressure away from the mother. And IMO it would motivate the staff to make better choices b/c paperwork has legal implications for professionals.
Now this I like. I hear so many stories where it seems like the nursing staff is almost sneaky about getting formula into the babies, even when the mother has verbally told them she's exclusively BFing. It would be wonderful if they were not permitted to give formula unless they had signed consent.

DH+Me 1994 heartbeat.gif DS 2004 heartbeat.gif DD 2008 heartbeat.gif DDog 2014
limabean is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:10 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post
Now this I like. I hear so many stories where it seems like the nursing staff is almost sneaky about getting formula into the babies, even when the mother has verbally told them she's exclusively BFing. It would be wonderful if they were not permitted to give formula unless they had signed consent.
i agree with this. my nurses got all warm and fuzzy about finger feeding DS formula. drove them nuts when i kept saying no... they drove me nuts b/c they kept coming in to wake me up and ask me.

a friend of mine was ticked as heck after her son was born b/c she specifically told them no bottles or formula and they gave him one when they took him to bathe him. she was in recovery after a c section and her DH was with her. she was so mad esp. b/c he hadn't even nursed yet and he didnt need to eat 10 minutes after being born.
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:37 PM
 
gsd1amommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie19 View Post
When did I ever call it poison?

Formula IS a substitute. The vast majority of children can and should survive on breastmilk, for the few that can't, there is formula.
I am saying it is poison to my son and to other children who have the same inborn error of metabolism that he has. And NO, formula was not a substitute for my son. It was the only choice.
gsd1amommy is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
TheLoud's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central NY
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I want to thank everyone who posted much better ideas than mine. The best, of course, are that information be made available long before there's a baby to feed, so that mothers have time to make their choice in a calm, reasoned way, instead of at the last minute. Also, there should be plenty of support in maternity wards so women who want to nurse can.

What I haven't heard from any of the previous posters is how they expect that to happen. Who is going to pay to reeducate virtually every obstetrician, a sadly high proportion of midwives, and a whole lot of nurses? My plan at least is doable, since hospitals already are in the habit of making stressed, drugged people, who are in terrible pain, make decisions and sign paperwork about life-and-death matters. They would take a form like this in stride.

Yes, they would also occasionally give this form to women who've had a double mastectomy, women who aren't pregnant but just came to the hospital to get their broken leg fixed, and men who are in the hospital for prostate surgery. Accidents happen. As hospital accidents go, this would be relatively benign.

It's nice that so many people are coming to the defense of women who can't nurse or babies who can't drink breastmilk, but you have to admit that these are a tiny minority, or at least they would be if there were sufficient knowledge of and support for breastfeeding. Can someone name me one other mammal that has significant problems breastfeeding?

I'm amazed at how many people posted that this form would "make women feel guilty." I sincerely don't understand how one person could make another person feel guilty. If I had no legs, I'd use a wheelchair, and no one could make me feel "guilty" by telling me that walking was better. I'd feel annoyed, maybe angry, but not guilty. If I had no breasts, how would that be any different? I'd feed my baby formula and not feel guilty about it. I'd probably feel angry that donated human milk wasn't readily available, but why would I feel guilty?

I urge everyone to read "The Language of Breastfeeding" cited earlier:
http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/birth/BFLanguage.html
Why are we using the word "guilt" to describe the feelings of women who have been cheated out of one of the great pleasures of life? I'm not denying the experience of women who say they feel guilty, but I have to wonder if their justifiable anger at whatever force denied them this basic human pleasure somehow got turned inward, where it turned to guilt. If the hospital gave you terrible nursing advice, or your job didn't allow you to nurse, or the law didn't make allowances for the needs of nursing mothers, that's a reason to be angry at these external forces (and try to change them), not to feel guilty.

Formula is a necessity for some people. I never said it wasn't. I'm not anti-formula. Wheelchairs are a necessity for some people. I'm not anti-wheelchair. But imagine a situation where, in maternity wards, nurses asked, "How would you like your baby to get around, walking or wheelchair? The choice is yours. Here's a cute little free sample wheelchair." And if you said, "I choose walking" the nurses kept coming around every couple of hours to tell you that your poor baby can't walk yet, so this obviously isn't working, so you'd really better let them strap him into this wheelchair.

"Choice" is a word formula advertisers like to use:
http://massbfc.org/advocacy/makeCase.html
Some people need wheelchairs, but what person who can walk "chooses" life in a wheelchair?

By the way, breastfeeding does not convey any advantages to mother or baby. Breastfeeding is normal. Replacing breastmilk with formula unnecessarily conveys disadvantages. Education campaigns that talk about the "advantages" of breastmilk are accepting the normality of formula.
TheLoud is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 09:16 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLoud View Post
I want to thank everyone who posted much better ideas than mine. The best, of course, are that information be made available long before there's a baby to feed, so that mothers have time to make their choice in a calm, reasoned way, instead of at the last minute. Also, there should be plenty of support in maternity wards so women who want to nurse can.

What I haven't heard from any of the previous posters is how they expect that to happen. Who is going to pay to reeducate virtually every obstetrician, a sadly high proportion of midwives, and a whole lot of nurses? My plan at least is doable, since hospitals already are in the habit of making stressed, drugged people, who are in terrible pain, make decisions and sign paperwork about life-and-death matters. They would take a form like this in stride.

Yes, they would also occasionally give this form to women who've had a double mastectomy, women who aren't pregnant but just came to the hospital to get their broken leg fixed, and men who are in the hospital for prostate surgery. Accidents happen. As hospital accidents go, this would be relatively benign.

It's nice that so many people are coming to the defense of women who can't nurse or babies who can't drink breastmilk, but you have to admit that these are a tiny minority, or at least they would be if there were sufficient knowledge of and support for breastfeeding. Can someone name me one other mammal that has significant problems breastfeeding?

I'm amazed at how many people posted that this form would "make women feel guilty." I sincerely don't understand how one person could make another person feel guilty. If I had no legs, I'd use a wheelchair, and no one could make me feel "guilty" by telling me that walking was better. I'd feel annoyed, maybe angry, but not guilty. If I had no breasts, how would that be any different? I'd feed my baby formula and not feel guilty about it. I'd probably feel angry that donated human milk wasn't readily available, but why would I feel guilty?

I urge everyone to read "The Language of Breastfeeding" cited earlier:
http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/birth/BFLanguage.html
Why are we using the word "guilt" to describe the feelings of women who have been cheated out of one of the great pleasures of life? I'm not denying the experience of women who say they feel guilty, but I have to wonder if their justifiable anger at whatever force denied them this basic human pleasure somehow got turned inward, where it turned to guilt. If the hospital gave you terrible nursing advice, or your job didn't allow you to nurse, or the law didn't make allowances for the needs of nursing mothers, that's a reason to be angry at these external forces (and try to change them), not to feel guilty.
Formula is a necessity for some people. I never said it wasn't. I'm not anti-formula. Wheelchairs are a necessity for some people. I'm not anti-wheelchair. But imagine a situation where, in maternity wards, nurses asked, "How would you like your baby to get around, walking or wheelchair? The choice is yours. Here's a cute little free sample wheelchair." And if you said, "I choose walking" the nurses kept coming around every couple of hours to tell you that your poor baby can't walk yet, so this obviously isn't working, so you'd really better let them strap him into this wheelchair.

"Choice" is a word formula advertisers like to use:
http://massbfc.org/advocacy/makeCase.html
Some people need wheelchairs, but what person who can walk "chooses" life in a wheelchair?

By the way, breastfeeding does not convey any advantages to mother or baby. Breastfeeding is normal. Replacing breastmilk with formula unnecessarily conveys disadvantages. Education campaigns that talk about the "advantages" of breastmilk are accepting the normality of formula.

Point number one: This may make me a horrible lactivist, but breastfeeding isn't one of the great pleasures in my life. That would be chocolate turtle brownies. :

Point number two: About guilt. My dd was born at a very, very, very breastfeeding friendly hospital. She was a preemie that weighed less then two pounds. From the time she was born I was bombarded with drs and nurses telling me that I needed to try avoiding formula and all of the horrible side effects of it especially for preemies. I got tons of great advice and help, and she never got a drop of formula while in the NICU and was nursing at the breast within several months of coming home. But guess what, she wasn't growing, she wasn't developing, she was starving. I had an 8 month old that weighed less then 8 lbs. But I felt guilty giving her formula because I had been told from the beginning what a horrible thing it is. But when I gave in and she started on it, she grew and thrived so much better then when she was ebf. Eventually she did catch up developmentally, and I so wish that people at the beginning had told me that it wouldn't be the end of the world to use formula and that I had done so ealier. If I had to have signed a paper like the one you mentioned, it would have made the guilt 100% worse when I did have to use formula.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 09:23 PM
 
RoadWorkAhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not to mention the growing number of children who are not thriving on breastmilk due to any number of medical issues.

And as for these scores of HCPs, I've only met 2-3 totally misinformed HCPs. And considering the time we spend at Drs./therapies/etc., thats no small statement.
RoadWorkAhead is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 09:25 PM
 
claddaghmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoC View Post
In some cases, and not all that rare, it can take a female rabbit three or four litters to "learn" how to be a mom. Some female rabbits don't know to nurse their babies and will attack them instead, especially younger ones (around two or four months old --- yes, rabbits are sexually mature by two months old). I suppose it could be akin to PPD in humans. The director of the rabbit rescue we work with has seen this occur many times in her twenty years of work with rabbits. As for milk production, it works pretty much the same way as in humans. Nipples require stimulation. Mom requires additional hydration and food. So if she is missing the latter and refusing to engage in the former, there's going to be problems. I can only imagine that IGT is a possibility in rabbits.

Also, aren't the WHO's own statistics 85% in regards to successfully being able to breastfeed? I think one in twenty women having what you would term legitimate breastfeeding problems is still an awful lot of women and not a "tiny minority."
Oh yeah I think hamsters do the same thing. I remember our rabbits doing that a couple times. My dad said it's because they are in capitivity and can't observe other rabbits feeding so they don't know what to do.

Which actually makes you think about female humans lol. Never seen it, never done it, how do you be successful at it? And if you are, how do you know? Pictures aren't exactly the best help. This reminds me of those stories where teen girls had no idea their breasts included working mammary glands. Sad.

To the other topic: *shrug* I guess I don't see why it would be bad to have nursing shirts in regular stores, sold as regular items. We have clothing for every other activity in our lives. We have maternity clothing. We have dress clothing. Career clothing. Exercise clothing. But not feeding clothing. It's not a matter of "ability." I can jog in denim shorts just as well as my striped duo dry thingies

Mama to expecting Babe 2
claddaghmom is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 09:52 PM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLoud View Post
The best, of course, are that information be made available long before there's a baby to feed, so that mothers have time to make their choice in a calm, reasoned way, instead of at the last minute. Also, there should be plenty of support in maternity wards so women who want to nurse can.

What I haven't heard from any of the previous posters is how they expect that to happen. Who is going to pay to reeducate virtually every obstetrician, a sadly high proportion of midwives, and a whole lot of nurses? My plan at least is doable, since hospitals already are in the habit of making stressed, drugged people, who are in terrible pain, make decisions and sign paperwork about life-and-death matters. They would take a form like this in stride.
I don't think anyone is saying that the hospital wouldn't give the form, or that it isn't a cost-effective measure; we're saying it won't work anyway. What's the point of doing it if it isn't going to get women breastfeeding? The only point I can see is to take advantage of women when they are vulnerable and make them feel guilty for not breastfeeding, instead of doing the difficult, slow, but effective work of truly educating them.

If you want to look for alternatives and how to carry them out, look to other countries where breastfeeding rates are higher. I doubt that they have a magic bullet, like a form for women to sign. I mentioned in my post some of the ways I thought breastfeeding was supported in Canada. They all had to do with supporting women who are trying to breastfeed, but that does make a difference. And the more women who chose breastfeeding and are successful there are, the more it makes breastfeeding look doable for women who are deciding. It makes it more normal. But when I was pregnant, all of the literature from the hospital, doctor, etc. was in favour of breastfeeding, and the advice was fairly good. But, honestly, it was seeing other women around me nursing & knowing that my mom nursed us that was the biggest influence. IMO, if you make it easy for the women who want to start to continue, you will get more women choosing it because they see it as the default.

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:08 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hospitals and doctors will become more breast feeding friendly when it is necessary to their business. when patients start complaining and taking their business elsewhere they will change to accommodate.

i realize that this isn't particularly ethical of them but its generally how it works. if women made a point of not delivering at a hospital b/c they gave out formula and had poor lactation support what do you think would happen? if people switch pediatricians b/c they are uneducated about breast feeding and have formula posters in their office they will get educated and take down the posters.

remember when McDonalds updated its menu to include healthier choices? for years and years people knew McDonalds was unhealthy. it was not enough of an issue that it caused them to lose money. as the health food movement got bigger and other businesses started offering healthy options they lost costumers to those places. they could either continue to lose customers or they could adapt. they adapted and added more health food items to their menu, published ingredients etc.

hospitals, doctors, stores etc. will becoming more breast feeding friendly when their is a higher demand for breast feeding friendly. some targets stock tons of natural and organic baby stuff, slings, breast feeding stuff etc. some stock 38 brands of formula and 152 different bottles... it depends on what the people in their area buy. consumers have more control then they realize

if we want all of those places to change you have to change the minds of their customers.
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:18 PM
 
vbactivist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kierdan'sMom View Post
Not to mention the growing number of children who are not thriving on breastmilk due to any number of medical issues.

And as for these scores of HCPs, I've only met 2-3 totally misinformed HCPs. And considering the time we spend at Drs./therapies/etc., thats no small statement.
I've only met 2 or 3 that were informed, or rather , really convinced of the benefits of breastfeeding.. No small statement for me either....
vbactivist is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:20 PM
 
vbactivist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoC View Post
Also, aren't the WHO's own statistics 85% in regards to successfully being able to breastfeed? I think one in twenty women having what you would term legitimate breastfeeding problems is still an awful lot of women and not a "tiny minority."
The statistic I've always seen is less than 3%. But I don't have a link, do you?
vbactivist is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:23 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
this is interesting b/c i have a friend who wants to BF but was afraid she wouldn't be able to because everyone she talks to said they couldn't. she was upset b/c she thought most women could breast feed and didn't understand why so many couldn't. i spent some time reassuring her and promising help... but i think that many people say can't b/c they don't want to say they didn't want to. at least not to someone who wants to BF
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:25 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Again, this is just not the place to criticize women who choose to formula feed, for whatever reason. It's fine to discuss campaigns, promoting breastfeeding, etc, but once we start getting into criticizing individuals, we are outside the purpose of this forum.
Quote:
The Lactivism forum is not intended to be a place where MDCers to bash mothers who are formula feeding. It is understandable that lactivists become frustrated over the mainstream formula feeding culture. Criticizing ideas, campaigns, and actions that negatively impact breastfeeding are all acceptable forms of lactivism. Name calling, criticizing individuals, or attacking women who choose to formula feed as a group are not.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off