What if new moms had to sign a waiver? - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-12-2009, 05:33 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would hope it would be one with unlimited refills!!
1littlebit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-12-2009, 05:44 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 12,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There are so many scary docs too. A mama on my local board just posted that a doc is insisting her 14 lb 3 mos old is over the 100th percentile so she should feed him only every 4 hours, for ten minutes, and what he gets is what he gets. Then fill him up on water. She looked up the stats and he is 50th percentile, for one thing, and my baby was over the hundredth and I sure wasn't about to starve her!!!! I sure don't want them to have more power over how babies are fed.
thismama is offline  
Old 06-12-2009, 09:49 PM
 
pumpkinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 4,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyactsofcharity View Post
*bolding mine*

I have thus far decided to stay out of this conversation as I haven't really formulated an opinion on the original question. When I read this post though I felt I had to respond, especially to the part I've bolded. Most experts that I've heard on the subject state that the reason this happens in zoos and other captivity situations is because the natural order has been interrupted and the animal mothers haven't seen other mothers caring for their offspring and haven't been allowed to develop mothering instincts due to human interventions. This is discussed in at least a few of the shows you are referring to because I've saw some of them awhile ago.
That was exactly my point . We have lost a generation of breastfeeding experience. Many of us do not have mothers who breastfed us. We don't know what it normal and what isn't because they don't. We have very little experience to draw on, hence the lack of support.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
pumpkinhead is offline  
Old 06-13-2009, 12:40 PM
 
shanti1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLoud View Post
Um, which one of us, about what? Pumpkinhead seemed to think that maternity ward nurses would ask a mother who had lost both breasts to cancer if she wanted to breastfeed. I guess clueless nurses might, but I'm not one to engage in such gallows humor.

Some hospitals require a woman to sign a waiver before they'll let her try a VBAC. If one of their patients is choosing to engage in behavior known to be risky, why shouldn't they make her sign a waiver first?
Actually, this happened REPEATEDLY to my dear friend (who underwent a double masectomy at 30 years old. She was hospitalized at 20 wks when she was carrying her quads until they delivered (at 27 wks). Each and every time a new nurse came to work with her they'd ask if she'd plan to breast feed and when she said she couldn't or simply "no" she'd get a long lecture about the benefits of bfing (of which I can ASSURE you she knows). How her babies were already disadvantaged and she was doing them great harm in not bfing. They brought her to tears over and over again. She even had them put in big bold letters on her chart that she was a breast cancer survivor and still the dim wits couldn't stop harrassing her.
shanti1 is offline  
Old 06-13-2009, 12:48 PM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
my hospital LCs did that too... but i am fairly sure they would have put it on their little sheet and left her alone after she said she couldn't. I cannot believe they kept asking her. what part of i CANT did they not comprehend? that poor mama. :
1littlebit is offline  
Old 06-13-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 25,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
So, how DO we decide when something should require, say, a perscription? Is it about the danger? Individual freedoms? What will give the best results for the most people or for society?

I know I've been told if Tylenol came on the market today, it would be a prescription medication.
I'm working through a complicated thought pattern with a fuzzy head, so I apologize in advance if this is totally incomprehensible.

I feel that we shouldn't move towards more prescription medications, but away from that. The root of having things be prescription-based is/was in knowledge, imo. Doctors studied, and learned about what drugs and medications were appropriate for what conditions. They learned, and so did/do pharmacists, about side effects, dangers of combining drugs, etc. So, in theory, they're more qualified to determine what medication is required in any given circumstance, and to issue prescriptions accordingly. Prescriptions are about ensuring that the most appropriate, safest drug is administered in any given circumstance. That's the idea, anyway.

In practice? I go into a clinic, because I'm really sick. Doctor gives me a 5 minutes checkup (including the discussion of my symptoms) and says, "there's a bug going around - here's your prescription for your antibiotic". He doesn't know for a fact that I have the bug that's going around - just that my symptoms are similar. He often doesn't know if it's viral or bacterial. He doesn't know bacteria is causing it, if there is one (no cultures done). He just hands me a prescription sheet. Sure - lots of doctors say that their patients insist on antibiotics, but I've never done that - not ever. I don't want them. I've been strongly pressured to take them a few times, though (and even been given them by IV when I refused). Besides...if doctors are going to write prescriptions for antibiotics, just because the patient wants them...why bother having a prescription system at all? What purpose does it serve? "I want them, so I get them" - might as well be an OTC drug (and, no - I'm no advocating OTC antibiotics). The people issuing the prescriptions aren't living up to the responsibility that comes with that power, anyway.

When it comes specifically to formula, the only real "diagnosis" that could exist for prescribing formula is "baby has no access to breastmilk". As I'm not at all interested in having a doctor tell me how to parent, the reasons for the lack of access are none of his/her business. For a variety of reasons, I toughed it out through some of the most painful weeks of my life (the most painful, until I lost Aaron) to breastfeed ds1. I was capable of it, but it was agony...the pain in my nipples, and the pain of having to be the one to feed him, despite desperately needing rest after the c-section and lack of food in the hospital, were horrible. It was worth it to me to do it...but neither I, nor a doctor (who may only see the woman once a year - or less, if we're talking a clinic or some such) has the right to decide that another woman has to endure that - and maybe she's not producing enough milk to feed triplets, like I was. Maybe she's having supply issues, as well. Maybe she's more sensitive to nipple pain, and what was excruciating for me is completely unbearable for her. It's not up to a doctor, whose training is in the field of medicine, not infant nutrition, not parenting, and not the psychology of breastfeeding, to decide whether her reasons for not breastfeeding are "good enough" to deserve a prescription.

As for the idea that came up later in the thread of having LCs dispense the prescriptions? Over my dead body. After my experiences when ds2 was born, an LC will never touch me again. I see no reason why they should be put into the same kind of demi-god position that the medical profession has taken upon itself. The simple fact that somebody thinks they're qualified to make decisions for other people, doesn't mean that person actually is qualified to do so.

So...no - not a big fan of the idea of formula by prescription.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
Old 06-13-2009, 07:23 PM
 
Bluegoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hparsh View Post
I don't think lactation consultants or nurses are qualified to prescribe meds.

If someone had a prescription for formula, how much of a supply would they get per prescription?
Which isn't to say they couldn't be.

Some nurses actually can prescribe - those that work in isolated places, and nurse practitioners can as well. They can't always prescribe anything, there are usually some restrictions. I wouldn't expect, for example, that LCs would be allowed to prescribe opiates - perhaps in that scenario only formula.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
Bluegoat is offline  
Old 06-13-2009, 07:38 PM
 
Bluegoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I'm working through a complicated thought pattern with a fuzzy head, so I apologize in advance if this is totally incomprehensible.

I feel that we shouldn't move towards more prescription medications, but away from that. The root of having things be prescription-based is/was in knowledge, imo. Doctors studied, and learned about what drugs and medications were appropriate for what conditions. They learned, and so did/do pharmacists, about side effects, dangers of combining drugs, etc. So, in theory, they're more qualified to determine what medication is required in any given circumstance, and to issue prescriptions accordingly. Prescriptions are about ensuring that the most appropriate, safest drug is administered in any given circumstance. That's the idea, anyway.

In practice? I go into a clinic, because I'm really sick. Doctor gives me a 5 minutes checkup (including the discussion of my symptoms) and says, "there's a bug going around - here's your prescription for your antibiotic". He doesn't know for a fact that I have the bug that's going around - just that my symptoms are similar. He often doesn't know if it's viral or bacterial. He doesn't know bacteria is causing it, if there is one (no cultures done). He just hands me a prescription sheet. Sure - lots of doctors say that their patients insist on antibiotics, but I've never done that - not ever. I don't want them. I've been strongly pressured to take them a few times, though (and even been given them by IV when I refused). Besides...if doctors are going to write prescriptions for antibiotics, just because the patient wants them...why bother having a prescription system at all? What purpose does it serve? "I want them, so I get them" - might as well be an OTC drug (and, no - I'm no advocating OTC antibiotics). The people issuing the prescriptions aren't living up to the responsibility that comes with that power, anyway.

W
OT, but that's really only part of the reason doctors prescribe, though - that is, they are the ones making the diagnosis. And colds and flu aren't really the best examples of things you give drugs for. A lot of medical problems are more complicated than that.

In many cases, patients need to be monitored while on meds, to see if they are working, and to see if there are any untoward side effects. In the case of antibiotics and some other drugs, there is the problem of overuse, which it seems many doctors are not serious enough about. (Although in places where TB and malaria, for example, are common, they suddenly become much more serious about it.) There is the problem of counseling the patient on what to expect and how to properly take the medication, which is actually a really big part of what many doctors spend time doing - patients get some odd ideas. And then there are all the drugs that are also controlled substances, or have addictive properties. And then there is the problem of drug interactions, how long they stay in the body, appropriate dosages... all of which means being able to work out chemistry problems.

It would be nice to think that patients could learn about the thousands of drugs available, all their implications and side effects, and how to take them. But the number of patients Ive seen do bizzare things suggests to me that it might not be that simple. (The girl who took a BCP every night she went out to have sex comes to mind, after it was carefully explained to her...)

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
Bluegoat is offline  
Old 06-13-2009, 07:58 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 25,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
In many cases, patients need to be monitored while on meds, to see if they are working, and to see if there are any untoward side effects.
Maybe so, but that doesn't mean they're doing it. I've lost track of how many people I know who has experienced side effects while on medication and been told that "that isn't a side effect of this medication". What they usually get is a new medication, to cope with the side effect of the first medication, without ever being told that it might be the first medication causing the new problem.

Quote:
There is the problem of counseling the patient on what to expect and how to properly take the medication, which is actually a really big part of what many doctors spend time doing - patients get some odd ideas.
Seriously? Most people I know just get told to read the directions on the bottle and follow them carefully. I really can't imagine how much education it takes to "counsel" someone to do that.

Quote:
And then there are all the drugs that are also controlled substances, or have addictive properties. And then there is the problem of drug interactions, how long they stay in the body, appropriate dosages... all of which means being able to work out chemistry problems.
Yup...and lots of people get prescriptions without being advised of any of these things. Lots more get told by pharmacists, not by the person writing the prescription.

Quote:
It would be nice to think that patients could learn about the thousands of drugs available, all their implications and side effects, and how to take them.
It would be nice if the people with the power to write prescriptions did that, too. Besides, many prescription medications interact with OTC medications, as well as other prescription medications. So, even with a prescription, and even with "counseling", and even with a pharmacist and a print-out (we always get a sheet from the pharmacy, advising us of drug interactions, potential side effects, etc.)...someone can still take something OTC and make themselves really sick. (I recall an old high school buddy who disregarded the "don't drink alcohol" advisory on something he was taking - I've never seen anybody so ill. He customarily drank a fifth when he was partying, so he didn't really believe that "one little shot" could cause any problems.)

The point is that the whole prescription system is supposedly based on the education/knowledge of the people writing the prescriptions....but those people often don't know enough, and/or aren't being careful enough, anyway.

And, I don't see any way in which any of this would suggest that making formula into a prescription only substance makes sense.

I think formula should be required to be marked as a breast milk substitute, and at least some of its flaws marked on the packaging (eg. "this breast milk substitute does offer the same support of an infant's immune system that real breast milk provides")...and that's that. Let people make up their own minds, instead of having to convince a medpro or LC that they deserve to feed their baby.

Quote:
But the number of patients Ive seen do bizzare things suggests to me that it might not be that simple. (The girl who took a BCP every night she went out to have sex comes to mind, after it was carefully explained to her...)
So - what's the point? Birth control is prescription. She had it explained. She still didn't use it properly. You can't protect people from their own lack of understanding.

Plus, if someone isn't going to breastfeed, making formula unavailable opens the door to substitutes. Formula isn't as good as breast milk...but corn syrup and evaportated or condensed milk isn't as good as formula, either...

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
Old 06-14-2009, 05:21 PM
 
nudhistbudhist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devaskyla View Post
Well, since breastfeeding is the biological norm for our species, it doesn't lower the risk for anything, it normalizes it. Not breastfeeding therefore does increase the risk.


Plus, if you think being honest about the possible complications of formula feeding is somehow "harassing" a new mother, then signing ANY of the hospital waivers would be harassing. If a mother needs an emergency Csection, she is still asked to sign the anesthesiology waiver. No one is trying to scare her out of it by getting her to sign. It's just getting in writing that you consent to your "informed choice" because the paper you signed has all the risks outlined.

What if a mom who DIDN'T KNOW about those risks because no one ever mentioned it.You think she would then start asking some questions!!!! My gf ff because she thinks its just as good as BM. she thinks its convenient, and if its as good as BM like the TV tell her, then why not make the more convenient choice??? Her child has had the worst eczema since the week of his birth. She tells me that she's switching from formula to cows milk when he turns 9 months. When I mentioned the link between dairy and eczema, she said she would make the switch gradually. I then said it may not make his eczema worse since his formula was probably cow milk based anyways. She didn't know if it was or wasn't. She also didn't know that the formula could be causing his eczema. AND SHE USES A PEDIATRICIAN REGULARLY!!

the amount of misinformation boggles the mind. I haven't taken my baby to see the doc since birth. Obviously I wasn't missing out on anything!

Placenta eating EC mom to my sweet DS Skyy 08/24/08 and Lotus Birth HBAC DD Aspen 01/13/2010 Healed by her birth
nudhistbudhist is offline  
Old 06-14-2009, 06:06 PM
 
jlovesl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: edmonton
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLoud View Post
Here's an idea: what if every hospital maternity ward asked every new mother: "Do you want to breastfeed, or would you rather we feed your baby formula? The choice is up to you." Then if the mom said, "Feed my baby formula," the hospital would say, "Sure. Here are some free samples. You just have to sign this waiver first." The waiver would go something like this:

I am aware that by choosing to feed my baby formula instead of breastmilk, I am increasing his risk of dying of SIDS, lowering his IQ, increasing his risk of contracting diseases in infancy, increasing the severity of those diseases, increasing his risk of diseases in adulthood, increasing his risk of allergies...[We'll have to work on the exact wording here, since there are just so many risks to formula feeding, we have to pick and choose lest the waiver be too long.] I am also aware that by not breastfeeding, I am increasing my own risks of breast cancer, ovarian cancer, endometrial cancer, uterine cancer, osteoporosis, rheumatoid arthritis, and obesity.

If my baby or I becomes sick or dies as a result of this hospital feeding my baby formula, I will not sue this hospital.

Signed: Date:

Psychology studies have shown that people will make the right choice when it's the default, and making the wrong choice requires checking a box. If people realize that breastfeeding is the normal thing, and formula is dangerous enough to require a waiver, they might be more likely to make the right choice.
This is absolutely ridiculous! New Moms have enough to worry about. They needn't be bothered with idle threats and guilt.
jlovesl is offline  
Old 06-14-2009, 08:01 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 25,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nudhistbudhist View Post
What if a mom who DIDN'T KNOW about those risks because no one ever mentioned it.
Maybe it would make more sense to make information on this part of the standard prenatal care, then.

I will say that, of the women I've personally known who have ff by choice, none of them were unaware that breastmilk was better for their babies. The reasons for their choice to ff were varied, but they all knew that it was nutritionally subpar, and the ones I've talked to about it also knew that breastmilk offers immune benefits, as well.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
Old 06-14-2009, 11:45 PM
 
StoriesInTheSoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
That was exactly my point . We have lost a generation of breastfeeding experience. Many of us do not have mothers who breastfed us. We don't know what it normal and what isn't because they don't. We have very little experience to draw on, hence the lack of support.
Gotcha. I wasn't sure what you were getting at but I understand now
StoriesInTheSoil is offline  
Old 06-17-2009, 04:56 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 34,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I have removed several posts. As I addressed earlier in the thread, the purpose of this forum is breastfeeding activism. We WILL NOT host threads saying breastfeeding advocacy is "nobody's business". Period. If you disagree with the concept of Lactivism, please just don't post or read here.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
Old 06-17-2009, 06:08 PM
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tl;dr
Posts: 25,384
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thread closed to new posts.

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
georgia is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off