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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
That's a very extreme, biologically essentialist position, and I feel it's thoroughly contradicted by my observation of the children around me.
My closest IRL parenting allies are the dads down the street, who have two adopted boys. Those kids are doing at least as well as my kids. Arguments like yours hurt families like those, particularly the children (we're not really drowning in foster placements for babies recovering from substance abuse).
It's not extreme at all. It's just the plain facts. If you happen to personally know some formula-fed children who, in your presumably unprofessional opinion, seem to be doing well, it doesn't change the facts. It has been proven that there is quite a list of diseases -- many of which do not develop until adulthood -- that people who were not breastfed are significantly more likely to develop. It is not my argument that hurts formula fed children. If a parent has no other option than to feed a child formula, then there is no reason for that parent to feel guilty.
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Originally Posted by
pek64
Formula has it's place, but for humans breastmilk is the actual standard. Formula is inferior to breastmilk. Cow's milk is for cows. Goat's milk is for goats. It is the standard for the young to consume milk designed by nature for that species.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
It is a very harsh, broad statement to make, and kids like those MeepyCat mentioned would be examples of children who might need formula, and might do ok in spite of it.
People are reacting emotionally to factual statements. I don't think "harsh" is the word to use to characterize my statements. I am not judging people who have to use formula. I am just pointing out unavoidable, often regrettable facts about the enormous differences between the breastfeeding that children are supposed to get and the modified cow's milk that some of them, for one reason or another, get instead. Let's remember that the topic at hand is whether or not medical professionals should be in the business of routinely marketing that modified cow's milk to the mothers who have just given birth in hospitals. We in the lactivism forum should be able to come together on that one, without getting into an off-topic argument about whether some mothers should feed children formula when, due to the specific circumstances of a particular case, it is the best option for them (of course they should!).
I agree that some children need formula because there isn't a better option for them for one reason or another. I also agree that when formula-fed children do well, they do well "in spite of" the fact that they are consuming formula instead of breastmilk. You are right to use that phrase.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
However, I see 100+ year olds every other day in the paper and on tv swearing by alcohol and cigarettes for their longevity - they did fine, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, ykwim?
Exactly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
pickle18
I think we have a looong way to get around the apologist/consumerist rhetoric of patting people on the back saying, "It's ok, formula is just great!" It's not. And when the vast majority of babies in this country are on artificial milk, something is very wrong. When all new mothers are sent home from the hospital with free formula samples, something is very wrong. It should be the exception (as in the cases you cited), not the rule.
I would argue that we are
hurting all babies everywhere when we pretend it's all good, when we make it easy for mothers to quit by feeding them feel-good propaganda about formula, just so nobody feels like a failure or gets upset because they didn't give their kid the best. We need an honest focus on what makes sense for babes, clear wording about the deficiencies and risks, and more support and tools to help people get there - not more kid-glove handling and free formula samples, IMO.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
It's just like everywhere else on MDC, where users complain that their parents/grandparents/etc. fight their healthy, natural choices with the age old, "I raised you with corporal punishment/scheduled bottlefeedings/CIO/meat and potatoes/junk food/chemical cleaners/disposable diapers, etc. etc. and
you turned out just fine." Well...maybe, maybe not...but I think we should all try to make sure that more babies wherever possible are drinking milk from humans.
And that requires a serious alteration in our current cultural communication biases.
I'm going to repeat something that I said once before on MDC:
You know what? I was molested when I was 3. And you know what? I'm okay. The fact that someone turns out okay is not a vindication of everything that has ever been done to them!
Before anyone freaks out, I am NOT comparing formula feeding to molestation! My example is an extreme example of course. I just wanted to reinforce Pickle's point, which is that it is very true, in general, that anecdotes about people who turned out alright are not justification for everything they've ever experienced. A healthy, happy person is not a walking advertisement for every product they've ever consumed. It is possible for a person to thrive in spite of missing out on good things and experiencing less desirable things. It doesn't change the fact that lack of breastfeeding is a disadvantage. That's all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
As parents, we aim for the very best, but often find ourselves forced to compromise, to accept that someetimes we can give our children the best, and sometimes we have to settle for sufficient.
Formula is sufficient. It's not perfect or best, but there are plenty of families who find that it'spreferable to some of the alternative compromises.
You need to read the article I linked above, called Watch Your Language. Breastfeeding should not be characterized as "the very best" (even though, technically, it is). Why? Because it's just the norm. It's just sufficient. It's just what children are supposed to get, no more, no less. Formula is NOT sufficient. It is sub-standard. It does not contain anywhere *near* all of the components that children need. Formula may be preferable to straight cow milk, but it is not preferable to breastfeeding.
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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
Those families are doing their best to raise healthy children, and they are not helped by the language you ladies are throwing around, in which it appears thatformula is like smoking - you *might* get lucky and survive it.
I already qualified my statements about cigarettes. Perhaps a better comparison would be one that I remember was made on MDC a long time ago: eating Doritos and a vitamin instead of eating a salad. Children do usually survive being formula fed (in America any way -- I don't know about developing countries). But the fact is that they are at increased risk for many diseases, and they miss out on an important hormonal bond with their mother. I'm not going to stop speaking facts no matter how much some people might not want to hear it.
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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
soome would still use formula, and their kids would not be meaningfully harmed by it.
You lack facts about the effects of not breastfeeding.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
I believe in a world where we won't sugar coat the facts, so that all families can truly make the best decisions. A world where breastmilk isn't depicted as some super awesome extra luxurious option, with formula as the normal baseline. Formula is inferior and deficient - it is artificial, a poor substitute.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Just like if families want to raise their kids on a bunch of junk food, sodas, artificial additives and GMOs - that's their choice. The kids will survive - their diet will be "sufficient." But I don't see any reason to pretend that humans were meant to live just fine on Cheetos. I'm not going to go out of my way to avoid offending them, patting them on the back and saying, "It's ok, you did your best to make the best dietary choices for your family. Healthy food is perfect and optimal, but this is perfectly ok, too." Um, nope.
The choice of two in this country puts breastmilk and formula as nearly equivalent - like you're buying the same car, but if you want to, you can spring for the extra (implication: unnecessary) features and get breastmilk. That is a false comparison.
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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
formula is like the food you can buy cheap in the grocery store (you know, the GMO stuff).
Sorry, but this is true.
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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
That goes a long way towards making advocates for breast feeding sound clueless about their personal levels of privilege.
This has nothing to do with privilege. Whether you consider someone privileged or not does not change FACTS. An understanding of the problems of formula is certainly not an indication that breastfeeding advocates are clueless.
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Originally Posted by
MeepyCat
If you make it clear at the outset that you're espousing an unaffordable standard, they won't feel obligated to hang around waiting to see if you have something useful to offer.
First of all, I'd like to challenge whether or not breastfeeding is an unaffordable standard. Firstly, pumping at work is usually an option, though I acknowledge that it isn't always. Second of all, my financial circumstances are such that I am LESS able to afford to be the stay at home mother that I have always been than every single person who has ever told me that they can't afford staying at home and that I'm "lucky" that I can afford to. I live in poverty because staying at home with my children and breastfeeding them is more important to me than anything else. If staying at home with my children hadn't been possible without literally starving to death or being homeless, I would not have chosen to have children. I do not blame mothers for the fact that some of them can't pump at work or the fact that there isn't adequate maternity leave. Those are definitely aspects of our society that need to change. Breastfeeding is not supported. I acknowledge that. However, nothing can change the fact that breastfeeding IS the minimum standard. Children need it, and there's no substitute, and that's all there is to it.
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Originally Posted by
CI Mama
If the #1 factor that influences women's breastfeeding decision is the "message" they get about the relative values of breast milk and formula, then I suppose statements like this are useful, and people like me will just have to deal with a lifelong feeling of being a defective and substandard human being.
If, on the other hand, other factors are more influential (social class, access to breastfeeding support, cultural support for breastfeeding, etc.), then messages like the one above are scare tactics that probably do more harm then good.
I never said that you are a substandard human being.
The fact that humans can't develop properly, the way they are meant to develop, without breastfeeding, is not a scare tactic. It's just a fact. It is a fact that it is important for people to know when they make the decision of whether they should breastfeed or use formula. Breastmilk contains ingredients that are essential to the proper development of every system in the body. Formula does not contain them. That's why a person who has never been breastfed faces such an increased risk of so many diseases. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad. I'm sorry that it does. I'm saying it because it's a fact and it's important for people to know it, for the sake of the babies of the future.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Nothing I've said is an attack on low income women. I completely agree that there needs to be improved access to breastfeeding support, supplies, etc.
I don't think we are going to get there unless we get real about the fact that babies need breastmilk.
Exactly. (Emphasis mine.)
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Nowadays, it's assumed only upper middle class SAHMs can breastfeed - and
that's just plain false. Lower income, working women need more support - but the bias toward formula is also deeply cultural.
Many lower income, foreign-born
women in this country, for example, still breastfeed their children.
Exactly. As I just demonstrated. (Emphasis mine again.)
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Healthy habits aren't impossible on a tight budget. This isn't about privilege - it's about making it work, at any income level.
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Originally Posted by
LLQ1011
I really really feel that even though this whole things seems like it is geared towards the mothers it is more geared to the staff. I was in the hospital for months. My son spent a week int he nicu for jaundice. I cannot count how many times I was offered, and even forced to give my son formula and even told the benefits while waiting for him to be born. They would do it without my knowledge if I was a few minutes late for a feeding even when I had breastmilk in the nicu fridge. I pulled a few bottles out of his mouth in that time.
Don't be confused. This isn't really geared towards mothers more towards the staff to try and bring this behavior of giving babies formula and not supporting a mother trying to breastfeed to an end. And to also educate them on how nutrition in that first few days should be.
Thank you for trying to bring this discussion back on topic.
This isn't about an attack on mothers. It's about medical personnel marketing formula to breastfeeding mothers who don't even ask for it.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Painting breastmilk as a luxury, as a privilege, is rhetoric we need to change.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Baby humans should have human milk - except in cases of adoption, and other areas where that is extremely difficult or impossible. That is what formula is for. Not for the vast majority of babies in this country.
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
formula is everywhere, and despite the costs (financial and health) many moms choose it - why? Because it's the socially acceptable choice.
I'm running out of ways to say "I agree."
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Originally Posted by
pickle18
Of course, some mothers might feel dismayed, offended and betrayed. Many in previous generations feel that way about CIO now, too. One usually does when the truth hasn't been imparted by trusted medical providers. That's no excuse not to start to turn the ship.
This gets back to the guilt issue mentioned in the article I posted above, "Watch Your Language." Which is a VERY good article, by the way, that all lactivists should read.
It also reminds me that Maya Angelou says "I did then what I knew how to do. When you know better, you do better."
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Originally Posted by
pek64
I breastfed my son against much criticism. I am proud of that, and feel I am intelligent *in spite* of my formula foundation. Maybe if I'd been breastfed I'd have the Nobel Prize for some wonderful accomplishment.
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Originally Posted by
CI Mama
I found the PP's statement that no human being can truly develop without breast milk to be very unhelpful.
You're misquoting me. I didn't say you can't truly develop without breastmilk. I said the human body cannot
properly develop if it is not breastfed. Which is not to say that you are some sort of deformed freak if you were formula fed. It means that you did not receive what Nature meant you to have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CI Mama
I think a different PP made a good point about getting staff to change because that can be very influential. If institutions such as hospitals supported breastfeeding by accepting is as the norm and providing comprehensive support to women to get a good start in breastfeeding, I believe that would make a substantial difference in breastfeeding rates.
Similarly, I think that all work places should provide support for breast pumping and breastfeeding.
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Originally Posted by
CI Mama
So I'd like to see better training and interest among OBs in lactation issues.
That, too. Even pediatricians are clueless about breastfeeding and its importance. They have a long history of promoting formula. And accepting bribes from formula companies for doing so, by the way.
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Originally Posted by
pek64
1. Lactation consultants should attend the birth and help those who want to breastfeed get the best start.
2. There should be special handling of breastfed newborns, that aids the breastfeeding relationship. Included in this is absence if bottle feeding (to check sucking ability) and separation of mother and baby.
3. INTENSIVE education of pediatricians on the benefits of breastfeeding and how to provide medical care and information without formula.
4. Lactation consultants must be covered by *all* health insurance.
5. Employers must provide decent accomodations for pumping. Bathrooms are not acceptable.
6. Breastfeeding bras and tops should be covered by health insurance.
And finally, I think maternity leave needs to be longer than 6 weeks, regardless of the child is being fed! I watched many women return at 6 weeks that were walking zombies! Under those conditions, sleeping while someone else gives the baby a bottle would be very appealing!
And the mothers being walking zombies is not the only issue. Maybe not even the biggest one. Think of the poor 6 week old being deprived of its mother for such a long stretch of time while she's at work!
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Originally Posted by
CI Mama
It is just appalling that we don't have mandatory maternity leave in this country. And 6 weeks is not nearly enough.
There are European countries that mandate at least a year.
Sorry, guys. I'm known for my long posts.