"I supplement once a day... I mean, I need a break! don't you think?" - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:20 PM
 
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pumkinhead...Yes, she did offer support. Until she heard she wasn't doing it 100% all the way. Her face changed when the mother said she needed a break. I understand that...I know I've done the same in conversations in the past. It's something I'm trying to change about myself because I wasn't doing anyone any favors by shutting down.

We all know the obstacles we overcome to breastfeed our babies. The opposition we face from friends and family and strangers. From the guilt-tripping girlfriends who think we must think we're superior and the disappointed grandmas who can't have baby overnight and the strangers who want us to hide away to feed our children. Sometimes our way is the hard way. She was doing it mostly right, I think, and could do even better with a little help. Instead, we shut down on her and turned to our friends to vent about her. I think there must be a better way and we can help each other find it. Can't we?

I think many of us have had similar situations as the original poster's. I don't want to be picking on her in particular. I'm sure many of us have acted this way. For me, it's like being ticked off about something, but refusing to really do something to make a change. That's why I'm frustrated.
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#122 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:33 PM
 
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I don't understand why your frustrated. I've had the wrong thing said to me many times for nursing an older child. I've had ff moms tell me that breastfeeding was gross and disgusting. Sometimes I tried to talk to them, but for some of them they don't want to know anything about breastfeeding.

I'd love to change the worlds attitudes about breastfeeding. However I don't see it happening anytime soon.

My dh and I went out to a night club this past weekend. It surprised me all the young 20 somethings smoking. A chain smoking at that. Haven't they heard about how bad smoking is for them. They must have heard, but just don't care. I find that same attitude out there with formula.

The OP did nothing wrong.
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#123 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:36 PM
 
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chellemarie, for me this thread is about the OP poster's right to vent here, without all the mainstream "oh, but the poor mother, what if she was raped, what if she couldn't bf" when those things didn't appear to be the case. I can go to "large mainstream forum" if I want to hear that. No one is saying women who CAN'T bf should be shot at dawn.

What WAS she supposed to do, as the manager/employee (not sure?) of a store, when the new mom said that? I don't know if "on the job" she could hand out LLL stuff.

This thread is also about society, and that the way bf vs ff is viewed MUST change. FF IS bad, BF IS the norm (the human norm that is. Whether you believe it was god or evolution/nature, humans WERE created to nurse our young.)

Seriously, to those of you so against the OP's feelings, and her rant here, what WAS she supposed to do instead? And why isn't she supposed to rant about it here? I'm not advocating we jail women who don't bf for god's sake, but I want answers to those question from those who continue to condemn the OP for her feelings and her rant. Because that is ALL the thread began with, the OP vent her FEELINGS about a woman that is supplementing her 2 week old, which IS a bad thing from a bf advocacy point of view.
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#124 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:38 PM
 
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Amen
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#125 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
gethane, I think I love you!
Ok, but don't tell my husband!
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#126 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:46 PM
 
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I don't think that we should have legislation forcing a mother to breastfeed, give birth in a set environment, not to spank or to spank, circ or not to circ and so on. But how many Americans are just plain uneducated when it comes to parenting? How many just don't realize the choices they have or that the fact that they want to nurse past six months ISN'T perverted like some might imply?

I still think that maybe when we start making our decisions based on what's best for our child... maybe then we will make better parenting decisions?

A formula feeding mom who decides not to breastfeed AT ALL because she goes back to work at 6 weeks pp and doesn't want to bother with it. I about that. Why not nurse for 4-5 weeks and gradually switch to formula? Much as the thought makes me gag, I really would like to see her nurse until baby weans, but some bm is better than none at all. But what can I do? Well, for one I can advocate breastfeeding when given the chance.

I personally am ranting about the GENERAL ATTITUDE surrounding breastfeeding and formula feeding. I think that's what LMB is trying to do. Check out my blog... I vented Sunday about that very thing.

No, I'm not saying you are bad if you ever needed formula or to supplement. BUT, I honestly believe that every baby deserves breastmilk and until the general attitude that surrounds feeding your baby changes from "whatever works for you (meaning the mom) is fine" to "whatever is best for baby" then we still have work to do.

Peace and hugs!
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#127 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:47 PM
 
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gethane- you took the words right out of my mouth!
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#128 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by busybusymomma
PS- I believe there is a thread for formula feeding moms in FYT... you could start a thread for supplementing moms if you feel the need for support!
I am not looking for support. I actually beleive that I have something to offer. I really believe that it is potential misinformation to claim to new mothers that if they supplement, they will definitely lessen their milk supply. It is not that I don't believe it is statistically likely, it may very well be. But I walked around believing what I had read about nipple confusion and my milk supply (that if I used a bottle, I would inevitably end up not being able to breastfeed) and it just turned out not to be the case. I dislike that I was given the wrong information on this issue.

Eventually it helped to talk to the pediatrician and to an aunt who had breastfed all three of her children until they were preschoolers. This aunt had never heard of nipple confusion and she stared blanky at me when I used the term. Finally, after explaining my concerns, she just asked, "well if it turns out that it is a problem, you can go back to never using a bottle." So maybe, I just got lucky and my aunt just got lucky or any of the women who I know who supplement just got lucky; nevertheless, the info that I was given by "advocates" was not accurate and made my choice more difficult than necessary. It added a dimension of guilt & stress that was unelpful and may have in itself jeapordized the breastfeeding.

I'm not sure why "support and advocay" of breastfeeding means that only people who believe that supplementing is a terrible idea should post their opinions. I wasn't even clear that "support and advocacy" always meant extended breatsfeeding. I thought it meant supporting women who choose to breastfeed and advocating for its benefits. But maybe a mission statement has been written somewhere that makes it clear who belongs and does not belong in a "supporter" group.

Lastly, what really interests me about my experience is not whether some formula is a bad idea, I actually agree that in an ideal world if it can be avoided, it is better to avoid it. I just think that we are not in a perfect and an ideal world and we have to choose what issues we are willing to compromise on. Rigidity on every issue leads to the literal and figurative breaking of any person.

So what interests me about my experience is why the notion of a break for me was so much about bodily integrity and knowing that someone else could be responsible (for a short while) for the nutrition of my baby. I think in some ways it was too overhwelming to have my body be the only way that my child would avoid starvation especially as a single woman. What would happen if I were hit by a car and in the hospital or died? What would happen if my milk supply dried up? Raising a child without another parent is already terrifying, when I added to it the thought that my baby's survival depended on sucking milk out of my exhausted body 14 times per day, the stress felt even more intense. Knowing that there were ways that my son could and would be OK even if I took a feeding off was my way of having a break. I really do think that in cultures with extended families or nations in which maternity leaves can be a year or more long, there probably are other and better ways of women getting a break.

But as long as the expectation is that women can always be super-women (take care of their kids, their homes, their jobs, their post-partum needs & in some cases their spouses etc) with little or no help from anyone else let alone supportive family social policies, as long as all that is absent in our notions of how to be a mother, of course women will have difficulty being the parents whom they want to be. And I believe that the expectation that women will exclusively breastfeed unless they suffer from a short list of approved ailments, is as stressful as the other things that I mentioned above.

Yes parenting is difficult work, that is why we need to have better societal support. The answer is not that since it is hard work, no one should complain or try to find ways to mitigate the difficulty. Suck it up? No, change it.

clarissa
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#129 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 03:58 PM
 
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Gethane and Michelle and Cindy -

I'm not disagreeing with you. I feel largely the way you ladies do. I wish you could read my posts the way I mean them. I feel like you're discounting what I've written because you think I'm on the "other side".

She could have scribbled her number on a piece of paper and told the mom to call her if she needed help or just wanted to talk. She could have written down "www.mothering.com/discussions - "Getting Started & Overcoming Difficulties" and handed it to the mother. I've done this before. It's not hard. It's easier than holding onto the anger.

She can rant here, but I can speak up, too. I'm a member as well. I'm a breastfeeding advocate who has nursed three babies and whose youngest will never have a sip of formula. I'm not the enemy. Neither is the mother who is nursing all but one feeding a day. Yes, she could be endangering her nursing relationship and YEAH it's kind of a slap in the face to all the moms who wanted to nurse every feeding but couldn't. But what good is simply being angry about it going to do?
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#130 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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am not looking for support. I actually beleive that I have something to offer. I really believe that it is potential misinformation to claim to new mothers that if they supplement, they will definitely lessen their milk supply. It is not that I don't believe it is statistically likely, it may very well be. But I walked around believing what I had read about nipple confusion and my milk supply (that if I used a bottle, I would inevitably end up not being able to breastfeed) and it just turned out not to be the case. I dislike that I was given the wrong information on this issue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Supplementing will DEFINITELY lesson their milk supply.

You were given bad information. It will not definitley reduce milk supply, but don't you want the information that it POSSIBLY can. Or would you rather be left in the dark?

Nipple Confusion: Is very real. Their are some babies who will not go back to the breast. Its very important if possilbe not to give a baby a bottle before 4-6 weeks. Most babies at 4-6 weeks go back and forth between bottle and breast with no problem.

I worked and both of mine had no problem with nipple confusion.

But for moms who start out breastfeeding and then throw the baby a curve by introducing a bottle where the milk comes out faster and easier there could be a 50/50 chance that baby will not go back to the breast. I did not want to take this chance and waited.

You did not get good advice. There is a lot of that out there. Especially in hospitals where you need the advice the most.
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#131 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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Good grief. I'm not saying women should be super-woman.

I am forever thankful that my MIL is four blocks away and my mom ten minutes away should I need help.

I guess I prefer to be the one to care for my children. Whatever toots your horn I guess.
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#132 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:06 PM
 
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Michelle. I'm surprised at your last post. I want to be the only one taking care of my children, too. But there is an attitude in our society that you have your baby and get on with life as scheduled as soon as possible. There is that expectation on mothers and it can be overwhelming. I believe it underminds nursing relationships and is a cause for PPD. We all find ways to cope. Those who don't have the information and support we have find different ways to cope than we do.
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#133 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:11 PM
 
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chellemarie, I don't think you are on the other side. I am simply stating that the OP did not deserve the venom she got from every mom here that mistakenly got the idea that she was saying that THEIR decisions to supplement were bad. We have to take the PERSONAL out of this equation. As I said before, its not about ME and YOU, or the OP and the mother in the store. It's about the baby. It's about society. It's about making BF so commonplace that they don't even ASK you in the hospital if you will bf or ff.

I was just supporting the OP that this IS the place to vent about stuff like that. I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't post here. Post where you want. But I am tired of EVERY fricking forum that I go to we have to be so damned careful not to upset the ff'ers!! as if they are so fragile we just don't dare mention there might be something WRONG with formula.

Whew, ok, sorry that last couple sentences just kinda spewed out. I want somewhere where I fit in! I want somewhere where what I believe is the norm. FF'ers have every other damned forum on the internet, and I just want one or two.
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#134 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:13 PM
 
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Huh, well I meant to hit Preview post, not post but those really are my feelings and I'm sure those frustrations are leaking out in the other posts I've made. That's where I stand. That's where I'm coming from.
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#135 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:21 PM
 
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I'm coming from that same place, Gethane. But I've been holding onto a lot of hostility and I've actually pushed people out of my life for their decision to formula feed. It hasn't gotten me anywhere and it certainly didn't get more breastmilk into those babies. I can't continue to be enraged. That's what I'm saying. I have to advocate without being as pissed off as I used to be. There must be an alternative. A way to win people over that is subtle and kind. And a way to learn to live with others' choices - even when they're not the choices we'd like them to make. It's not about defending formula or lowering my standards. It's about living amongst people who don't do everything the way I think they should and not going absolutely crazy.

Where we live, Gethane, we get a lot of opposition. Why wouldn't our babies have whole cow's milk at 12 months!? What is "organic", anyway? I'd go crazy living here if I couldn't let go of the angry lactator inside of me. That doesn't mean I can't still help get more boobies into more babies. In fact, I might be MORE productive.
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#136 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
Arggg.. I was completely *enraged* last night where I work.
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Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
ok, as you can imagine my face changed right after she said that,
Okay, I have been : here for a while and it's been weighing on my heart particularly the arguing going on (you can tell I don't hang out at Activism much...)

Anyway, I went back to read the OP and I remember the OP saying later the word "enraged" should probably be rephrased.

I realized that it probably is that word that colored several peoples' perceptions, along with "my face changed." Speaking for myself, I was visualizing the OP's face falling, and then saying nothing, and putting myself in the mom's shoes and feeling the judgment. BT, DT.

I realize from subsequent posts that this is probably not accurate, and loving-my-babies, I apologize for misconstruing this and contributing to the ensuing maelstrom. I realize you have limitations on you based on your job. Might not be out of line, though, if somebody says, "need a break, don't you think?" to say, "oh, yeah, I understand, but did you know that supplementing can cause supply problems?" and then either give LLL number or mothering URL as mentioned above. Might be a thought if it happens again and it might make you feel better and less upset.

I see the point about not "lowering the bar," but am torn between wanting to congratulate the mom on at least trying and anger, too, at the misinformation out there contributing to the cycle. I think that's really the source of a lot of the anger we've seen in this thread.

I do disagree with the person who took issue with the wording "trying to breastfeed." A lot of us with past issues still feel that way and use that terminology. My DS2 was probably 9 months old before I felt I could say "I breastfeed." IMO, that's a whole 'nother issue and not worth nitpicking the mother's wording over.

Once again, sorry from me for any contribution I gave to the argument.

Peace,
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#137 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 05:07 PM
 
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It is not that I don't believe it is statistically likely, it may very well be. But I walked around believing what I had read about nipple confusion and my milk supply (that if I used a bottle, I would inevitably end up not being able to breastfeed) and it just turned out not to be the case. I dislike that I was given the wrong information on this issue.
You were not given the wrong information, and it turned out not to be the case for YOU, not for everyone! That is called anectdotal. Along this reasoning, I am going to drive my baby around without a carseat because we have never gotten in a wreck. Everyone said a wreck may kill him if he is not in a seat belt, but we have never been in a wreck, so they must be wrong. Do you see the lunacy of your reasoning? Just because these things did not happen to you does not mean that hundreds of professionals have lied in hundreds of well respected books and publications. Yeah, you proved them wrong. You were lucky, and your luck does not prove that nipple confusion and supp will not hurt a nursing relationship! You do woman a great diservice when you belittle these things because they are very real, and several woman struggle to overcome them. I am utterly shocked at how elementary and archaic this reasoning is! If nipple confusion and supp were no biggee, how come so many woman struggle with latch probelms and have inadequate supplies? Oh! It must be those silly emotional dramatic girls(says an old male doctor...) Mmmm....interesting.
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#138 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by busybusymomma
Good grief. I'm not saying women should be super-woman.
I know that you weren't and I'm sorry if I came across as picking on you or for that matter nitpicking at the original poster. I am participating in this thread because it interests me and I care about it intensely. Also because I feel like the forums on this board have a lot to offer a diverse range of women and if no one speaks up if they disagree with another poster, then everyone will believe there is only one opinion about issues among those of us who read mothering magazine.

I actually think it is fine for the original poster to rant as much as she wants. I just happen to think that it is fine for me to share my opinion as well. I've tried to do so in a respectful way that acknowledges that I respect others rights to disagree with me. If I have not been respectful, I am truly sorry.

What I've been wanting to do is discuss why mothers might feel a need for a break from nursing because at least originally, so many posters seem to be saying that they could not even understand why someone might prefer a break from breastfeeding (as opposed to a nap or a break from doing the dishes or any of the other types of breaks that one might take).

After sharing my experience (and no I did not take it personally when others disagreed with me or implied that someone who supplements is a bad mother), I actually did take issue with several other posts which bother me not as a supplementer --I actually feel OK that I did so for a couple of months just the way that I feel good that I no longer do so.

But I am bothered with the following three ideas that I read yesterday and so my posts have been focused on discussing those opinions:

1) " If this woman is already needing a break from her baby after ONLY 2 weeks, what is she going to be like in 6 months or a year or two years? I know what she'll be like, I've seen it way to many times! She'll be one of those people that shoves her baby/child off on anyone that will watch her for a few hours so she can go do whatever she wants"

I don't see any other way of reading the above quote except for that the poster believes that this woman is or will be a neglectful mother who leaves her baby at a drop of a hat for trivial reasons. And I disagree heartily with that assumption.

2) "Parenting is NOT easy. It doesn't make you feel good all the time. That's just the way it is. Our society, IMO, is way to focussed on things being easy. We (in America) do have it pretty easy as far as many things go. We should appreciate that and suck up the rest."

Again, I "hear" perhaps incorrectly, the assumption that the woman who made the choice to supplement is doing so casually and without real thought to make an already easy life even easier or more convenient. That is why I was talking about super-women, I think our society makes parenting more stressful when in fact it should make it less stressful. If a person is having a hard time and is finding something difficult (breastfeeding or anything else), I really object to the notion that she should "suck up the rest." That does not necessarily mean that she should give up entirely, but I think that rather than implying that she is lazy or wants things to be easy, I would prefer to try to problem solve about ways to support parents (and other in our culture) better.

3) Out of the three opinions that I listed here, #3 is the only one that I do actually take personally. It is the one where my feelings did get hurt not the ones that criticized formula supplementing mothers. It is the notion that just because people have a different definition of support or advocacy of breastfeeding, they should go somewhere else to discuss these issues. If I did that, I would never get a chance to read the interesting and important things that are discussed here. Or I suppose that I could lurk and read the posts but not share my thoughts. I hope that there can be room for differing opinions to belong here without making the place "unsafe" because I do learn from other opinions and I don't believe in that type of segregation. I think by virtue of the fact that I subscribe to the magazine and that I take time away from work to read these forums and I think deeply about what has been written before posting on these issues, I have as much right to engage as anyone else.

cj
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#139 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chellemarie
Michelle. I'm surprised at your last post. I want to be the only one taking care of my children, too. But there is an attitude in our society that you have your baby and get on with life as scheduled as soon as possible. There is that expectation on mothers and it can be overwhelming. I believe it underminds nursing relationships and is a cause for PPD. We all find ways to cope. Those who don't have the information and support we have find different ways to cope than we do.
I really shouldn't have posted right then. I had to leave the house quickly to pick my daughter up from her Grammy's house. Yup, so I sound like a hypocrite but she loves going to see Grammy.

On the drive, I realized my post really didn't sound very nice and I apologize.

I am blessed with a husband who is willing to change diapers or cuddle a baby/read to the preschooler while I make dinner. I guess that's my personal break. I suppose the idea of feeding MY babies with a bottle whether it's EMB or formula is a very foreign concept and thus, I don't understand a desire to feed your baby a bottle.

I also apologize if my reference to the threads at FYT sounded like an invitation to leave. While I think discussions of the merits of supplementing might fit in better there, I guess that's not for me to decide.

One catches more flies with honey than vinegar and I think I just flunked that test. Good thing I'm nicer in person, huh?
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#140 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 05:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boysrus
The problem comes in when it is not the formula that is being bashed but the mother who is using it. And she IS breastfeeding.
that's how i'm feeling.
don't bash her, bash the companies, the pediatriacians who condone the supplementation and don't offer help and assistance with education, pumps, ect.
yes, she did say something supportive, i mustve missed that. i always gush over any new mama who breastfeeds. it makes a difference. if you make breastfeeding cool and great and something to be really proud of (which it is) it makes a tired new mama feel a little more inspired to tough it out.

i don't think she's a terrible person. and i am glad she's breastfeeding most of the time. any breastmilk is better than none. of course there's the nip confusion, and the decrease in milk supply. i agree that for me, it wasnt a choice. i was going to breastfeed because it's the way babies are supposed to eat. formula is not healthy, the marketing blitz that has made it so acceptable, the norm even, is nauseating. but what are we supposed to do? should she have told this woman about those issues? scared her?really turned her off? i don't understand what the alternative is, the alternative to just being blanket-supportive of another woman's breastfeeding regimen. is there a gentle way to inform a supplementing mother that she's putting her breastfeeding relationship in jepordy without alienating her?

also, i know several other posters have said it already but PLEASE REFRAIN FROM USING THE TERM "nazi" in reference to being a lactivist. PLEASE. the nazis were zealots who committed genocide against millions of innocent people. do you really want the connotation between breastfeeding your child and genocidal murderer????????

Erin, 33, salty southern mama, sitting by the sea with my DH35, DD10, DS4, &DD2!
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#141 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GeorgiaGalHeidi
You were not given the wrong information, and it turned out not to be the case for YOU, not for everyone! That is called anectdotal. Along this reasoning, I am going to drive my baby around without a carseat because we have never gotten in a wreck. Everyone said a wreck may kill him if he is not in a seat belt, but we have never been in a wreck, so they must be wrong. Do you see the lunacy of your reasoning? Just because these things did not happen to you does not mean that hundreds of professionals have lied in hundreds of well respected books and publications. Yeah, you proved them wrong. You were lucky, and your luck does not prove that nipple confusion and supp will not hurt a nursing relationship! You do woman a great diservice when you belittle these things because they are very real, and several woman struggle to overcome .
I'm sorry that you consider my reasoning lunacy. There is actually a fallacy in what you wrote above. The correct analogy would be if I said "we have been in a wreck and my baby was just fine even though he was not in a car seat therefore there is no point or reason to use car seats." In that instance, I would be ignoring that most babies who are in wrecks and are not restrained are hurt.

Similarly, I never claimed that most mothers who supplement don't put their milk supply at risk. And believe me I am well educated about the difference between anectdotal evidence, qualitative research and statistical research and the type of reasoning that each of these imply.

So if I trivialized the problems that many women have with nipple confusion by saying that I did not have trouble, I'm sorry. However, I still think people were doing me a diservice by telling me if I used a bottle, my baby would inevitably stop breastfeeding. It just wasn't true and it caused me a lot of pain and confusion. I guess that I am particularly frustrated with that statement because I know so many African-American women and immigrant women in this country (my personal heritage) who have worked outside the home for centuries without pumps and found a way to still nurse their children. I am not interested in discounting the experiences of these women. But that is a whole other story about my feelings about some stuff that I;ve read in other forums on the Mothering board.

So for me to say that I did not experience a problem, does not change the statistical likelihood that supplementing will cause a problem, it merely offers a reason why we should not rely only on statistical studies to understand it when our experience differs from the norm. I'd rather be given a likelihood or a risk assessment than be told "if you do this, you will definitely fail..." It just isn't true for some (note I said some, I did not say most).

cj
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#142 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
I really believe that it is potential misinformation to claim to new mothers that if they supplement, they will definitely lessen their milk supply. It is not that I don't believe it is statistically likely, it may very well be. But I walked around believing what I had read about nipple confusion and my milk supply (that if I used a bottle, I would inevitably end up not being able to breastfeed) and it just turned out not to be the case.
Clarrisa, I've pointed this out and I'm going to say it again. You claim you gave a bottle "a few times a week" not DAILY. This is an essential difference. Someone who gives a DAILY bottle will have a lessening of milk supply - it's called supply and demand. You CANNOT extrapolate from your experience and say "I supplemented occassionally with a bottle of formula, therefore all supplementation will not cause any problems." I think you cannot see beyond your experience to get the "big picture".

edited for spelling
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#143 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 07:38 PM
 
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And there is never a definitely this will happen to everyone theory, but a responsible LC, LLL leader, activist, etc. should tell you what could possibly happen. Because if it happens 50 % of the time, thats a lot of people that are left uninformed when they have a diminished milk supply.

I pumped at work for 24 hours when I went to work. I sometimes had to fight a fire for 6-8 hours straight without pumping. Lucky for me I still was about to pump between 24-38 oz on my shift and never have a milk supply issue. I know other women may not have been so lucky. But at least I was aware that it could happen and would have know what was going on and I would have sought out help to rectify the situation
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#144 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 09:11 PM
 
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Just ran across this and thought it pertained:

"The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that 1.5 million infants die around the world every year because they are not breastfed. " from http://www.babymilkaction.org/

I don't understand why the "exceptions to the rules" keep being brought up over and over again in this thread--I fail to see how that is support or advocacy.
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#145 of 178 Old 05-18-2004, 10:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2six
"I supplemented occasionally with a bottle of formula, therefore all supplementation will not cause any problems." I think you cannot see beyond your experience to get the "big picture".
I'm sorry that you interpreted my comments that way, I don't believe that I ever said that "all supplementation will not cause any problems." If I implied that sentiment, it is not an accurate reflection of how I feel about the issue. I am highly aware of the dangers of relying on purely anecdotal evidence.

I've been talking about my own experience and that of women whom I know (which includes both women whose babies experienced nipple confusion and those who did not as well as women who breastfed successfully and those who did not). What I am saying is that the message which I was given in the hospital by nurses, doctors, the doula and the lactation consultant as well as what I read on the internet about breastfeeding PRIOR to giving birth and what my birthing class teacher said, all repeated the same mantra:

1) If you introduce the baby to a bottle prior to 4 weeks, your baby will end up rejecting th breast and you will not be able to breastfeed.
2) If you EVER give your baby formula in place of nursing, you will end up eventually not being able to breastfeed because the use of formula inevitably leads to early weaning.

For the record, there was no distinction made in any of the advice I was given between the casual use of formula, its daily use or constant use. These things were all lumped together as always leading to failure.

What I wish is that instead of listening to all those "experts" about breastfeeding, I had taken a moment to listen to the wisdom of my personal village particularly the older women in it. Today right before leaving work, I took some time to ask my colleagues who breastfed their children about their routine immediately postpartum and when they worked. These women ranged from women slightly younger than me (late 20s) to one woman much older (nearly seventy). There was a huge range of how these women approached this issue and when I was given advice in the hospital, I was not at all aware of the range.

My colleagues (and a couple of my family members) ranged from returning to work at 10 days to returning at 6 months. They ranged from women who introduced bottles immediately to women who managed never to do so (one colleague had a babysitter who brought the baby to her office to nurse several times per day). They ranged from women who breastfed for a mere 6 months to one who did so until her youngest was 4.5 (in the 1970s no less!). Although for the purposes of complete honesty, I would say that the most of them stopped between 10 months and 18 months; that is only a few of them breastfed babies past about 22 months and only two fed them past age 3. These women also varied from no formula at all to occasional use to regular use. One woman only worked half time for her daughters' first year of life. During that year she sent the baby to day care with formula on the 2? 3? days that she worked and exclusively breastfed on the days that she was home. She never pumped at all.

So would my milk supply have diminished if I had given the baby a bottle each day instead of sporadic use. (sometimes I would do so 3 or 4 days in a row and then not again for another week or more. sometimes, it was every other day etc). Maybe. I'll even grant you probably. But I don't think that the answer is certainly. Or rather, perhaps it would have diminished and then grown again as needed.

I think the thing that struck me the most as I talked to the older women who had breastfed (and I did not talked to the many many colleagues of mine who had never even tried), is that most of them seemed genuinely surprised by some of my questions. Perhaps in their cases ignorance was bliss.

But I'm not advocating for ignorance about either the benefits of breastfeeding or the dangers of formula (or its supplementation). I am saying that I don't think the nurses and consultant in the hospital did me any favors by convincing me that using a bottle would definitely lead to failure. OTOH, I suppose the other side of the argument in is that by making me so worried about failure, even when I did supplement, I was determined to do so as little as possible. And maybe that was a saving grace.

Nevertheless, I still would have preferred to know that there were different ways of approaching breastfeeding, particularly in relation to going back to work. I keep reading people posting that the "mainstream" approach is everywhere, but I guess I failed to notice it or read the correct publications for showing me that some women actually do successfully breastfeed even if their baby has a bottle prior to 4 weeks. I really thought that it was an all or nothing thing and that deviating from the advice that I had been given would doom my kid.

So anyway, after reading other Mothering forums for about a year, I started to read this one in hopes of getting some specific questions answered about frozen breastmilk, planning solids & my baby's recent distractibility (in the last week, if there is anything else going on in the room while he nurses, he seems to want to play or chat instead of concentrating on his feeding. does that mean that I can no longer nurse in public places or noisy rooms?). But instead of talking about my son's distractibility, I got distracted myself by this discussion so I should stop talking and just start a thread with my questions --I suppose in the "difficulties" forum.

But the last thing that I wanted to say is that the headline at http://www.babymilkaction.org/
at least when I looked at it is about dirty water and unsafe bottle-feeding. The statistic "1.5 million infants die around the world every year because they are not breastfed" enrages me as well and the last thing that I want to do is to support an industry that is complicit with this CRIME and I would call it a crime, but that does not mean that but that does not mean that the cause of death is formula itself.

That is at least as much about poverty, economic and cultural imperialism, horrific education and abuses as it is about the safety of formula. Bottle feeding can kill according to the site and then other pages on the site go on to describe in depressing detail about just how it kills. I would never deny those details and I believe that it is important to recognize and be active on this issue. But to quote that statistic without context is to conflate a variety of issues and simplify a pretty complex tragedy that includes formula but is not limited to it.

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#146 of 178 Old 05-19-2004, 11:45 AM
 
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That is at least as much about poverty, economic and cultural imperialism, horrific education and abuses as it is about the safety of formula. Bottle feeding can kill according to the site and then other pages on the site go on to describe in depressing detail about just how it kills. I would never deny those details and I believe that it is important to recognize and be active on this issue. But to quote that statistic without context is to conflate a variety of issues and simplify a pretty complex tragedy that includes formula but is not limited to it.
The 1.5 is because the babies were bottle fed. Sure, they may have died of Malaria, but they would not have gotten malaria had their moms not had to use tainted water to mix up that junk. Doctors term these deaths "bottle deaths" and the ailment "bottle disease." This term was unheard of before formula companies started to market their crap to third world countries in the 70's. Shortly after, millions of babies started to die, and the term was coined. If there was no real corelation, please explain how teh infant mortality rate seemed to skyrocket with the introduction of formula in these areas. They rule out other illnesses and diseases that are not so closely related to bottle feeding. That is a pretty accurate number. You mention alot about conditions, etc., but even here in the most developed nation in the world, babies still die because they are not breastfed, and no, I am not talking about sids or other popular illnesses, which breastfeeding prevents, however.
Quote:
1) If you introduce the baby to a bottle prior to 4 weeks, your baby will end up rejecting th breast and you will not be able to breastfeed.
2) If you EVER give your baby formula in place of nursing, you will end up eventually not being able to breastfeed because the use of formula inevitably leads to early weaning.
Oh come on. No publication I have seen puts it that way. They use teh words "more likely" or "probably" or something along those lines. This is a sad way to bolster your argument. Come on! Give me a break! Yeah, that's what all my breastfeeding books say. Yeah right.
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#147 of 178 Old 05-19-2004, 12:46 PM
 
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What advice would you (anyone) give a mom that had to go back to work PT and could not pump productively enough to satisfy the baby until she returns? Would this situation fall under the category of "acceptable formula use"? Or would the advice be to start pumping asap for a stash to build up even if it takes all day and night to get an ounce or two?
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#148 of 178 Old 05-19-2004, 12:48 PM
 
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Maybe you could check that out in working mamas (I think I've seen threads about that before) or start a thread in "getting started and overcoming difficulties". I don't know that I have enough info to answer the question here.

Amy - Blessed wife to Jesse (the best dad in the world), mother of 10 on earth plus 8 in heaven.   PROUD to be a Catholic! : winner.jpg familybed2.gifhomeschool.gif

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#149 of 178 Old 05-19-2004, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacheePoo
What advice would you (anyone) give a mom that had to go back to work PT and could not pump productively enough to satisfy the baby until she returns? Would this situation fall under the category of "acceptable formula use"? Or would the advice be to start pumping asap for a stash to build up even if it takes all day and night to get an ounce or two?
I personally would move heaven and earth to avoid formula, that's my personal thing. If I was unable to avoid regular supplementation of formula because of work I guess I would quit work, even if it meant needing assistance such as WIC (obviously a single mom wouldn't have this option).

Are you saying someone who can't get milk out with a pump or someone who just can't keep up with supply due to not enough time to pump at work? Unable to pump... I don't know if there is anything you can do or not really. Supply issues... keep hydrated, try taking fenugreek, drinking Mother's Tea and making sure you nap and sleep with baby anytime it's possible to stimulate lots of milk production.
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#150 of 178 Old 05-19-2004, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by busybusymomma
I personally would move heaven and earth to avoid formula, that's my personal thing. If I was unable to avoid regular supplementation of formula because of work I guess I would quit work, even if it meant needing assistance such as WIC (obviously a single mom wouldn't have this option)

I agree with this. I actually work part-time and pump every 2 hours at work, I am very fortunate to not have to work, so if there is ever a problem with my supply I would quit right away. I understand this is not the case for everyone. so what about getting bm from a milk bank? I have not researched this, but I would if I needed to. I don't know how expensive it is though.
Just like busybusymomma, I would do anything to avoid formula. I believe where there's a will there's a way.
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