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Old 05-19-2004, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GeorgiaGalHeidi
. Oh come on. No publication I have seen puts it that way. They use the words "more likely" or "probably" or something along those lines. This is a sad way to bolster your argument. Come on! Give me a break! Yeah, that's what all my breastfeeding books say. Yeah right.
Heidi

If you think that I am being rude or disingenuous then I can understand what sounds like a pretty hostile response from you. Otherwise, I'm not really sure why the tone of your message is so sarcastic. So if you think that I'm being disrespectful or offensive, I'm really sorry. Otherwise, please don't call me a liar simply for disagreeing with you which is how I read the above.

I wrote that "the message which I was given in the hospital by nurses, doctors, the doula and the lactation consultant as well as what I read on the internet about breastfeeding PRIOR to giving birth and what my birthing class teacher said, all repeated the same mantra... 1) If you introduce the baby to a bottle prior to 4 weeks, your baby will end up rejecting th breast and you will not be able to breastfeed.
2) If you EVER give your baby formula in place of nursing, you will end up eventually not being able to breastfeed because the use of formula inevitably leads to early weaning"

I did not say that any breastfeeding books stated the above. I said what I read on the internet and then I listed specific people including the pediatricians in the hospital & my OB who incidentally also advised me to co-sleep which I very much appreciated and has worked out great --lest you think that I'm knocking all birth professionals!

After I left the hospital, I did hear some different advice from the breastfeeding support group I attended and the lactation consultant who ran it. Also my son's primary care physician offered different ideas.

Also if you read what has been posted on this thread alone, I'm pretty sure at least a couple of people have said essentially the same thing with phrases like "almost definitely" which strikes me as different than "most likely"

cj
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Old 05-19-2004, 04:16 PM
 
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I am sorry for my tone-I get that alot. I really am not hostile at all. really, I'm not! I am extremely sarcastic, and that makes me come off mean sometimes. I really am not! I am just too darn sarcastic. I had really sarcastic parents. Sorry for the way it sounded.
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Old 05-19-2004, 04:21 PM
 
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I think it's silly, and bad for the baby, but at least she's BF full-time other than that one bottle a day. That's more than most do. It could be worse, she could be only BF once a day.
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Old 05-19-2004, 04:22 PM
 
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Rachel, I would have to know more, but I can tell you this....

You would be suprised at how much one pumping session may yeild! I work for two old judges, and I was worried about all the time i had to take to pump. I thought they would always notice me missing and that I would get into trouble. But...in only 15 minutes during my morning pumping session, I would pump more milk than he would take all day long. I onoy pumped more than once because I was prone to Mastitis and had to keep the ducts empty, and, of course, wanted to maintain the supply. I was overproducing so much at one point, my freezer was packed, and I considered donating! Point here is that you would be very suprised by how much a short session will yield, and some babies do not eat much or at all so that they can get it from the source when they get home-reverse cycle nursing. Some babies will nurse all night long and eat minimally during the day. My baby knows that I come home for lunch and feed him when I get home, so he has one bottle. He waits for me to eat at lunch, and holds out till I get home later-he naturally does this now. Did not at first, but does now. And...he nurses a ton at night.
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Old 05-19-2004, 05:24 PM
 
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I'm going to try hard to limit myself to one last (unfortunately long) post on this subject since it is clear to me that it is pushing some buttons for me (and possibly others). It also feels pretty silly since I really do believe that breastfeeding is best and I'm not sure how the conversation got so polarized that I am somehow on the opposite side of an issue in which I really believe.

I think part of the problem is that I have difficulty accepting statements that seem absolutist to me --that is statements which leave no room for other ways of viewing the world or different people's experiences. I think such statements tend to bring up feelings for me about prejudice and racism thus I start responding to those feelings as much as the original intent of the speaker. You might say that all absolute statements always make me completely angry I hope that you all get that I am being deliberately silly in this last sentence and making a joke.

But anyway, as I have been thinking about this thread, two things occur to me.

1) I live and work in Cambridge, Massachusetts which is arguably one of the most alternative places in the country. Some of the experiences which some posters discuss about not being accepted for their bf choices have not happen to me at least not to the extent which many report. At a party in my workplace a few weeks ago, there were three babies in addition to my own in slings and the majority of the women with children under two years were breastfeeding at least somewhat (although some do supplement). All the fears that I had through reading that I had done in Ms. Magazine and on the internet about being pushed into a medicalized birth by an OB were not at all realized --in fact, at one point in the hypnobirth of my son, I decided that I wanted to medication and my OB convinced me to wait. Almost all the parenting choices that I've made may not be common among my friends and colleagues but none are viewed as unusual or extraordinary. And the alternative health care center that I use for primary care is extremely responsive to my concerns. I may not be as intense about the breastfeeding issues as some of the readers of Mothering simply because I have not had to fight as hard with friends, family, health care providers etc to get mu wished respected.

2) The other issue has to do with my personal concern about the simplification of complex issues particularly in regards to some advice that I've been given. For example, the "formula kills in the way that a lack of a car seat kills" analogy bothers me because both of these arguments gloss over the causal link between the deaths and the factors contributing to those deaths (the dependent variable and the independent ones). Obviously the lack of a car seat does not cause death or rather it does not cause the car accident. The presence of a car seat helps a child (or in the case of a seat belt the adult) survive a car accident which is generally caused by other factors. Similarly according to the FAQ that I read on the posted site, breastfeeding does prevent deaths that otherwise occur in the presence of a combination of factors including formula, unsanitary conditions, pollution, poverty and I would argue US foreign policies. The cause is not only formula in the case of those particular deaths (though I know some might argue that formula kills in other ways), thus those deaths are only partially relevant in a discussion about supplementing in the US because presumably under certain conditions, bottles of expressed breastmilk would also lead to some deaths and one-time use , pre-prepared bottles of liquid formula would also prevent some of those deaths.

I know the above paragraph is somewhat quibbling and splitting hairs in the same way that gun rights supporters love the slogan "Guns don't kill people. People kill people!" And I don't want to quibble that way about either formula or car seats and definitely not about gun control which I strongly support. I am perfectly willing to concede that formula can lead to infant deaths and that not having a car seat can lead to the death of your child. But if I were going to have a real discussion and analysis of these problems then I would want to unpack those notions a bit and acknowledge the complexity of the issues.involved. I am glad that car seats and safety belts are mandated by law in my state and I get angry when people don't use them. But I know that the causes of the car accidents should still be addressed. Similarly in the case of gun control, there was an epidemic of gun violence and children killed by guns in Massachusetts about ten years ago, the policy-makers had to take a multi-pronged approach which included getting guns off the street but also included a bunch of other preventative and enforcement measures. That fact does not mitigate the need for gun control or mean that guns aren't bad things, but it also does not reduce a complex issue to an absolutist analysis of that issue.

3) Or another more personal example is that several people told me before my son's birth that the problem with bottles is that the milk/formula just flows into the baby's mouth and he does not have to suck therefore he develops lazy feeding habits. OK. Probably mostky true, but I would have preferred a more nuanced explanation. Instead, I believed this idea without question until I noticed that with the nipples that we happen to use (Dr. Brown's level 1, wide-neck), the milk does not flow automatically or even drip. If I hold one of the bottles upside down or I put the nipple in my mouth, I actually have to pull at it to get milk to come out and only a tiny bit does at a time. I'm sure that it is not the same to the baby as sucking at my breast but noticing the discrepancy between what I'd heard and the reality of those nipples of course made me question everything that I'd heard about bottles. Oddly enough, the nipples that did seem to pour milk out without any effort or sucking were the nipples that came with my medela breastmilk collection kit. And I don't get why. Presumably the makers of medela want to support breastfeeding not undermine it unless of course they believe it would be more profitable for women to pump and feed expressed breastmilk only.

So rather than saying we recommend that you don't bottle feed before 6 weeks, and including among the reasons "the nipples let the milk flow freely." Why not say that we recommend that you don't bottle feed for x,y & z reasons, but if you are going to do so, at least make sure that you use a brand of nipples that will mitigate milk flow problems? I don't think the notion is so complicated that mothers won't understand or they will run out to buy bottles because they think that bottle feeding is perfectly OK. But at least then those people who do choose to bottle feed are armed with more information.

cj
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:21 PM
 
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I'm going to answer the question about pumping.

I bought a cheap pump figuring I would spend less money on a pump and go back to work. I bought this pump 2 months before returning to work. It took me a good 45 min to pump an oz or 2.

So instead I rent the Medela Lactina. Good pump. It takes some getting used to. But I finally have a good stash and go back to work. I pump every 3-4 hours at work and get a good amount since I am not home nursing my baby.

I do pump a few times a week at home while the baby nurses on one side, so I have a stash in the freezer for emergencies i.e. growth spurts, spillage, etc.

Pumping takes practice. A good pump is the first essential item. Going to work with a stock pile is essential.

Some women still have a hard time pumping. Not a common problem but it does happen. Well, then you may have to use some formula.
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
So rather than saying we recommend that you don't bottle feed before 6 weeks, and including among the reasons "the nipples let the milk flow freely." Why not say that we recommend that you don't bottle feed for x,y & z reasons, but if you are going to do so, at least make sure that you use a brand of nipples that will mitigate milk flow problems?
OT - Going to don my flame suit and put out that according to the LC's where I work, the idea of nipple confusion seems to be highly overrated. Apparently it is a small minority of babies that can't figure out how to suck differently on one or the other, and it seems to be babies that are having problems with breastfeeding in general. Perhaps unstead of telling people "you need to wait "x" amount of time" we should be saying "until breastfeeding/latch is well established". I think the biggest issue with ROUTINE DAILY supplementation is that it will decrease the milk supply, for some to a point that it can interfer with breastfeeding success.

I read "Birthing From Within" when pregnant with #5. Pam England has taken a lot of heat for recommending that if you are going back to work to introduce a bottle at 2-3 weeks b/c once the baby is 6 - 8 weeks they have a definate preference and it is hard to get them to take a bottle. That was certainly my experience! I had the hardest time with the first 4 getting them to take a bottle (of EBM) at all and I knew with #5 that I was going to be taking a class 4 mornings a week when she was a month old so I needed her to take a bottle! I started at 2 - 3 weeks pumping on one side while she nursed on the other and then giving her the bottle when she finished on the first side. This routine worked well for me, though I could see it might be a problem for someone who was still struggling with latch issues or whatnot at 2 - 3 weeks! I was an experienced breastfeeder and that made a huge difference I'm sure.
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
I think part of the problem is that I have difficulty accepting statements that seem absolutist to me --that is statements which leave no room for other ways of viewing the world or different people's experiences.
Where are these statements? You mentioned that you were told absolutes by your doctors, etc. and found some info online--everyone has said that you received bad information there. Where is anyone *here* saying anything like this? People are talking in liklihoods--they are talking about what USUALLY happens. You, however, seem to keep insisting that these liklihoods do not exist based on your experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
1) I live and work in Cambridge, Massachusetts which is arguably one of the most alternative places in the country. Some of the experiences which some posters discuss about not being accepted for their bf choices have not happen to me at least not to the extent which many report. . . I may not be as intense about the breastfeeding issues as some of the readers of Mothering simply because I have not had to fight as hard with friends, family, health care providers etc to get mu wished respected.
You are really lucky. And again probably not in the majority. I don't have to leave my computer chair to get shit for bfing. I don't have to leave MDC, the Breastfeeding Support & Advocacy Forum, or even THIS THREAD to get shit for bfing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
2) The other issue has to do with my personal concern about the simplification of complex issues particularly in regards to some advice that I've been given. For example, the "formula kills in the way that a lack of a car seat kills" analogy bothers me because both of these arguments gloss over the causal link between the deaths and the factors contributing to those deaths (the dependent variable and the independent ones).
I did not say that "formula kills in the way that a lack of a car seat kills." I pointed out a cultural norm of not knowing or dismissing the risks of using an infant car seat that had fallen to the wayside. I stated that I hoped the cultural norm of prolific formula use would follow that trend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
Similarly according to the FAQ that I read on the posted site, breastfeeding does prevent deaths that otherwise occur in the presence of a combination of factors including formula, unsanitary conditions, pollution, poverty and I would argue US foreign policies. The cause is not only formula in the case of those particular deaths (though I know some might argue that formula kills in other ways), thus those deaths are only partially relevant in a discussion about supplementing in the US because presumably under certain conditions, bottles of expressed breastmilk would also lead to some deaths and one-time use , pre-prepared bottles of liquid formula would also prevent some of those deaths.
I would suggest you do some research before you make these arguments.

From: A Natural Family Online Special Report:
The deadly influence of formula in America
By Dr. Linda Folden Palmer

"Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) accounts for a full 10% of U.S. infant deaths. Several studies performed in the United States and other industrialized nations reveal increased risks of SIDS among babies who receive formula instead of breast milk. In the table below, the 2002 Scandinavian study takes into account variables thought to have affected the 2000 U.S. study, finding even stronger risks associated with formula.

The most recent U.S. study (2003) takes advantage of the lessons from these earlier studies to raise confidence in its final results. Its finding of five times the risk of infant death from SIDS for formula-fed infants seems to be the most powerful statistic yet."

"Three U.S. studies are available examining feeding methods for infants with early circulatory problems. One study reported that more than half of infants with congenital heart disease lost oxygenation during bottle feedings, while none did so while breastfeeding. Another study also dealing with heart disease found infants’ growth to be significantly inferior and their hospitalizations to be longer when they were fed formula. A third study of very low birth-weight infants found twice as many episodes of inadequate oxygenation among formula-fed infants as in those who received breast milk."

"Four separate studies in the United States all deduce a doubled risk of diarrhea for formula-fed babies. The U.S. studies also reiterate the well-established factor of greater severity and extent of illness once diarrhea does occur among formula-fed babies. Death rates for formula-fed U.S. infants who get diarrhea may be three times higher or more than their breastfed contemporaries."

"Numerous studies document higher numbers of respiratory infections among formula-fed infants than among those who are breastfed. It is clear that respiratory infections are at least triple in the United States for formula-fed infants. The death rate is likely to be even higher, since some of these studies note that both the severity and extent of respiratory illnesses are considerably higher once they occur."

"A joint study between the United States and Canada on neuroblastoma, a common childhood cancer, revealed a doubled risk for children who did not receive breast milk for more than one year. This study is consistent with several other childhood cancer studies in other nations, with results ranging from 1.45 to 4 times the risk for developing various common childhood cancers for formula-fed babies."

"A U.S. study performed at George Washington University Hospital found 2.5 times the number of infections among formula-fed infants in the intensive care unit than among those receiving human milk. Another study at Georgetown University Medical Center also found more than double the number of infections in very low birth-weight infants not receiving human milk. A San Diego study found twice as many infections in pre-term, formula-fed infants compared with infants who received human milk."

"A multitude of studies demonstrate that when breastfeeding is accompanied by formula supplementation, illness and death rates are much closer to those of babies who are fully formula-fed."



The Risks of Infant Formula Feeding
from the Breastfeeding Task Force of Greater Los Angeles:

One sudden infant death for every 1000 live birth occurs as a result of failure to breastfeed in western industrialized nations.

For every 1000 babies born in the U.S. each year, four die because they are not breastfed.

Formula fed infants are at a high risk of exposure to life-threatening bacterial contamination. Enterobacter sakazakii is a frequent contaminant in powdered formula and can cause sepsis and meningitis in newborns.



From: What Every Parent Should Know About Infant Formula by Katie Allison Granju

One of the least publicized risks of infant formula is inescapably inherent in the consumption of any commercially prepared and mass-marketed food product: between 1982 and 1994 alone, there were twenty-two significant recalls of infant formula in the United States due to health and safety problems. At least seven of these recalls were classified by the FDA as "Class I," meaning the problem could be life threatening. In several instances, random lots of lab-tested infant formula have been found to contain bacterial and elemental contaminants that, while a risk to infant health, do not rise to the level of threat considered appropriate for a widespread recall by the FDA. In February of 1995, FDA special agents uncovered a successful criminal scheme in California in which thousands of cans of substandard infant formula had been improperly labeled for resale. No one knows how many infants received this counterfeit product in their bottles.

Although it is estimated that the risk of death from diarrhea in less-developed nations is twenty-five times greater for bottle-fed infants than for breastfed ones, artificial feeding methods still carry significant health risks in the United States. Naomi Baumslag, M.D., MPH, and Dia Michels note in their book, MILK, MONEY AND MADNESS (Bergin and Garvey, 1995): "Even where bacterial contamination can be minimized, the risks of bottle-feeding are not inconsequential. Bottle-fed infants raised by educated women in clean environments, to this day, have significantly greater rates of illness and even death... In a study that analyzed hospitalization patterns for a homogeneous, middle-class, white American population, bottle-fed infants were fourteen times more likely to be hospitalized than breastfed infants."

The Texas Department of Health's Bureau of Nutrition Services says that artificially fed infants in the United States are three to four times more likely to suffer from diarrheal diseases (the number-one killer of infants worldwide), four times more likely to suffer from meningitis, and have an eighty-percent increase in the risk of lower respiratory infections.

Not surprisingly, in light of health risks associated with formula, is the 1995 study by Kaiser-Permanente Health Maintenance Organization in North Carolina finding that these babies' annual health costs averaged over $1400 more per infant than their breastfed counterparts. Unfortunately, even with the excellent medical care available to most American infants who become ill with formula-related maladies, the infant mortality rate has repeatedly been shown to be higher for U.S. infants who are fed infant formula. Research conducted by the U.S. National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences estimated that for every 1,000 infants born in this country each year, four will die because they were artificially fed. In another study, Dr. Miriam Labbock, a nutrition expert at Georgetown University, says that universal breastfeeding in the United States during the first twelve weeks of life could lower the overall U.S. infant-mortality rate by almost five percent.



From: Formula for disaster by Katie Allison Granju

When the overall health of formula-fed infants in the U.S. is compared to that of breast-fed infants -- even after controlling for variables such as parents' socioeconomic backgrounds -- it becomes clear that formula-fed babies are sicker, sick more often, and are more likely to die in infancy or childhood.

Dr. Lawrence Gartner, MD, FAAP is a respected medical authority on infant feeding who has played a role in drafting policy statements for the AAP regarding this issue. He agrees that parents today aren't fully aware that the breast-or-bottle decision is more than just another neutral lifestyle choice. "Compared to other equally important child safety issues like car seat use or babies' sleep position, parents should understand that the decision whether to breast- or bottle-feed ranks right up on top when it comes to protecting babies. The AAP certainly puts it in that category."

In fact, the AAP explicitly states that encouraging breast-feeding among parents is "as important to preventive pediatric health care as promoting immunizations, car seat use, and proper infant sleep position."



Quote:
Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
I am perfectly willing to concede that formula can lead to infant deaths
I think this understates the proven cause/effect relationship between formula and infant deaths.


I am honestly confused by your posts in this thread. I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse or what. But, I don't see how posts that continually minimize the risks of formula and focus on the exceptions rather than the norm are helpful.

I don't know how else to explain why people were upset by the OP.
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Old 05-19-2004, 11:05 PM
 
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nak

thanks for the replies reumping...but see the issue is-I CAN pump all day and get 1 oz total...and I have a Medela PIS. I've tried the massage and visualization techniques to no avail. At this point I'm starting to get worried about whether I can possibly pump enough for a 5 hr workday. So-that's my question...what would you do? (I should mention that I've been pumping at least 1x day for the last 6 wks, if that makes any difference.)

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I'm genuinely curious what y'all would do in my situation. If the pumping prob's continue, I won't be able to build up any sort of substantial stash before I have to return.

Thanks for any replies
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Old 05-19-2004, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RacheePoo
nak

thanks for the replies reumping...but see the issue is-I CAN pump all day and get 1 oz total...and I have a Medela PIS. I've tried the massage and visualization techniques to no avail. At this point I'm starting to get worried about whether I can possibly pump enough for a 5 hr workday. So-that's my question...what would you do? (I should mention that I've been pumping at least 1x day for the last 6 wks, if that makes any difference.)

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I'm genuinely curious what y'all would do in my situation. If the pumping prob's continue, I won't be able to build up any sort of substantial stash before I have to return.

Thanks for any replies
jumping in here...

have you considered a different pump? i used to rent a lactina and got 4-5 oz out of each breast in 10 mins or less. now that i just use my pis, i get less than 2 oz from each in 20 minutes most of the time. a lactina or better yet, a medela classic have much stronger motors that can stimulate and pump much better than the pis.

you might also try drinking a gallon (yes, i said a gallon) of gatorade a day. i know a woman who has had great success with increased production from that.

another idea is pumping on the opposite breast while nursing. in the short term you might get a few oz each feeding that will add up over several days.

good luck to you mama!
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Old 05-19-2004, 11:22 PM
 
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Rachel, I would check the flanges on your pump - it's possible that they're too small or too large for your breasts to be stimulated effectively. Another mama posted about this recently in the Getting Started forum.

Also, what setting do you have the PIS at? And is it a new(ish) pump, or could it have motor problems or need new membranes, anything like that? The flanges and membranes are fairly inexpensive so it might be worthwhile investing in those to see if it makes a difference.

I would pump first thing in the morning while baby is nursing the other side, if at all possible. I would also take fenugreek and blessed thistle, 3-4 capsules of each, 3 times a day, if I thought it was a supply issue.

And if it really comes down to it, if you really just can't pump (and I'm certainly this way now that ds is 21 months), if your baby is under 12 months, then formula would be appropriate. I would personally use organic dairy formula under those circumstances. But I would also pump a couple of times a day at work anyway just for the breast/supply stimulation.

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Old 05-19-2004, 11:36 PM
 
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quirky-I posted that thread about the phalanges... using the bigger ones has actually allowed me to get milk when I pump. I used fenugrek early on but stopped when ds started doing so well; I never thought about using it to help have enough to pump, but I will do so right away.

messynessie- I hasven't tried another pump cuz I was afraid it was "just me"...but I will def. look into it!

thanks mamas!
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarissajoy2
1) I live and work in Cambridge, Massachusetts which is arguably one of the most alternative places in the country. Some of the experiences which some posters discuss about not being accepted for their bf choices have not happen to me at least not to the extent which many report. At a party in my workplace a few weeks ago, there were three babies in addition to my own in slings and the majority of the women with children under two years were breastfeeding at least somewhat (although some do supplement). All the fears that I had through reading that I had done in Ms. Magazine and on the internet about being pushed into a medicalized birth by an OB were not at all realized --in fact, at one point in the hypnobirth of my son, I decided that I wanted to medication and my OB convinced me to wait. Almost all the parenting choices that I've made may not be common among my friends and colleagues but none are viewed as unusual or extraordinary. And the alternative health care center that I use for primary care is extremely responsive to my concerns. I may not be as intense about the breastfeeding issues as some of the readers of Mothering simply because I have not had to fight as hard with friends, family, health care providers etc to get mu wished respected.

cj
I just wanted to say that I live 15 miles from Cambridge, Massachusetts and apparently there can be quite a difference in just a short distance. A local large pediatric practice has standing orders to give formula to newborns in the hospital after every breastfeeding session, even if the mother wants to exclusively BF. I know countless people whose breastfed babies were given formula in the hospital against their wishes by the nurses, or were encouraged to do so by "lactation consultants". My local hospital has a 28% c-sec rate and after firing all the IBCLCs they sent all the maternity nurses to a one-week lactation consulting certification program and now these nurses are all considered LC's even though some of them don't personally believe in breastfeeding. I know a mother who was denied service at Great Cuts because the stylists said that breastfeeding was "disgusting". I rarely see mothers nursing in public. I was the only one I knew who used a sling until about 3 years ago. Most of the mothers living on my block FF their kids from day one. My own doctor recently cautioned me against breastfeeding my son "too long". Again, I'm only 15 miles from Cambridge.

I'm not disagree with your point that your environment may not have made you as angry as some of the rest of us, but I think it is interesting that one doesn't have to look very far to find the problems.
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:02 PM
 
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Just a few more things here.
Once upon a time, that OP could hae been mine. I used to be terribly judemental of "mainstream" moms. Only in the past few months have I decided to calm down and stop judging. THis is why my posts are so harsh. None so righteous as the newly converted, right?

Also, though, what if the mom in the OP picked up a Dr Sears book and found out that supplementing wasnt a good idea? So she surfs around and finds MDC? "Oh, support and Advocacy, I need support right now?" She She sees this thread title and so she opens it. Now, does she feels supported? Or does she feel kicked down by one more group of mothers?

It is really hard to find and live in the alternative culture. That is why it is alternative. We must accept that most people dont. We should applaud any efforts made to cross over into it, even if they dont meet our standards of alternative.
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:44 PM
 
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my last thought on this post is this...

just as people have pointed out there are different ways of going about breastfeeding successfully, there are also different types of breastfeeding advocates. while some of us here obviously feel that supplementing is no big deal as long as it helps someone be successful at breastfeeding *at all*, others of us wouldn't let our babies touch a bottle of formula with a ten foot pole. some of us may mostly be upset with the formula companies for the way they market formula, some of us may be upset by those who bash breastfeeding, some of us may be upset when we see an example of someone treating formula as something "almost as good" as breastmilk, and supplementing when they don't really need to.

we're all different, we all have different opinions on good reasons for supplementation, and different ideas on what breastfeeding advocacy is about. and that's not a bad thing. for some people, it may take that "all or nothing" attitude to convince them to keep going with breastfeeding. that mother may hear that sometimes people supplement, and that's okay, and that may really be the end of her nursing relationship, if she gives herself that permission. another mother may need to hear that same thing, that an occasional bottle is okay, so that she doesn't just quit altogether.

i myself really don't think supplementation without a valid medical reason is something a breastfeeding mother should do, when breastfeeding is otherwise going okay. but that's just my opinion. i happen to be one of those militant mamas when it comes to this subject. but that doesn't mean i'm right or wrong. and the OP wasn't wrong either for feeling the way she felt when she heard this mother say what she did. and those of you who supplemented? if it all worked out for you, and you're happy with your decision, then that is not wrong either.

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Old 05-20-2004, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boysrus
It is really hard to find and live in the alternative culture. That is why it is alternative. We must accept that most people dont. We should applaud any efforts made to cross over into it, even if they dont meet our standards of alternative.
I guess I feel like we shouldn't have to applaud any efforts here. This is MDC, this is supposed to be the alternative culture. I used to come to MDC and feel like I wasn't alternative enough, recently I feel more alternative than most. I'm not sure if I've changed or if MDC has changed.
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Old 05-21-2004, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote "Almost all the parenting choices that I've made may not be common among my friends and colleagues but none are viewed as unusual or extraordinary."

You are very lucky to live in a place where your choices are so accepted. But this is not the case for (I dare say) the most of us. My sister lives in Boston not far away from you and she is as mainstream as it gets.

Also, as far as the lazy sucking topic, I believe it is more important to focus on the dental carries differences when comparing formula to breastfeeding.

As for pumping, I tried unsuccessfully in the beginning because my dh wanted to feed ds so bad, but I had no help or information at the time. I also had no confidence and no real desire to do it because I wanted to just nurse. It was only a few drops and I gave up quickly. But now I know that a few drops was GOOD for the first time and that it takes time to be able to mimic your babe's sucking pattern and to be able to relax enough to let your milk down. I think pumping success depends a lot on the individual reasons and motivation for pumping. And of course, having some tactile help.
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tiacsophno
...A local large pediatric practice has standing orders to give formula to newborns in the hospital after every breastfeeding session, even if the mother wants to exclusively BF.


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I know countless people whose breastfed babies were given formula in the hospital against their wishes by the nurses, or were encouraged to do so by "lactation consultants".


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My local hospital has a 28% c-sec rate and after firing all the IBCLCs they sent all the maternity nurses to a one-week lactation consulting certification program and now these nurses are all considered LC's even though some of them don't personally believe in breastfeeding.


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I know a mother who was denied service at Great Cuts because the stylists said that breastfeeding was "disgusting".
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:44 PM
 
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Ya know, it is stuff like that that just makes me want to scream at people who say I can't be "judgmental" about my "choice" and other's "choices".

Why can't I be angry?

Why do I have to be a saint so others can get away with being $h**heads?

And what, exactly, is so wrong with having "judgment"? Why is "judgmental" so bad, but people get praised for having good judgment?

Is it going to get to the point where we have to be so careful with the feelings of people who use poor judgment that we can't even praise those who use good judgment?

Yours truly,

Frustrated and wishing that the US was more like Norway in that we had formula available BY PRESCRPTION ONLY!!!!!!
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Old 05-21-2004, 01:04 PM
 
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I just finished sluggling through nearly all the nine pages of posts on this thread. I have a couple of thoughts. I really wonder if there is something hormonal about feeling so angry about other people choice to not breastfeed (either at all or exclusively as in the case of the OP). I noticed that your youngest if just a few months.

I used to feel this way often and had an especially hard time with my SIL "method" of breastfeeding my nephew. My son was 9 months old at the time my dn was born. She alternated nursing and bottlefeeding with every other feeding while still in hospital until about two weeks when she quit offering the breast entirely. I felt very manipulated when she called me at five days post partum and asked me what she could do about her sore nipples. I wanted to say throw out the bottles and make sure you have a good latch every single time. I also felt like strangling her (definitely not supportive). Instead I told her use the lanolin every single time and that her "system" was likily to cause nipple confusion and supply problems. She also stated that she read in the breastfeeding book I bought her that very fair skinned woman have more difficulties with sore nipples. I was mad that she used/twisted the content a book I personally found very inspiring as an "excuse" to stop.

I still think of myself as a breastfeeding advocate and it still doesn't sit well with me when other woman make the choice not to breastfeed, but I no longer have a kneejerk anger response. My dh's cousin and his wife had a baby in March of 2004 and when we saw them at Easter. They showed us their photos from the hospital. One of the pictures was of this beautiful newborn being bottlefeed in the hospital by her mother. I saw it and felt that it just didn't look right and felt sad for both of them, but I didn't feel the anger that I would of felt 12 or 18 months ago.
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Old 05-21-2004, 01:33 PM
 
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I think you might be on to something with the hormonal idea. 2 years ago, long removed from breastfeeding my last child (now 10) I'm not sure I cared emotionally if someone I knew bf or not. Sure, I'd like them too, from a intellectual standpoint.

Now, with a 6 month old EBF baby, I care a lot. I think it has something to do with the look on his face every time he breastfeeds, of bliss. And the thought that there are millions of babies out there that associate that bliss not with their mama, or skin to skin contact, but instead... with food.
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Old 05-21-2004, 04:35 PM
 
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also, it is not as "personal" I used to be really wound up aout it, as I said. But, my youngest is is 3 next month and working his way to weaning. I have been pg or bfing continously for over 8 years. My feelings have become a little kinder bc I a no longer in the "breastfeeding trenches" Same with homebirth. I think that what is right in front of me is what I am most passionate about. And as my kids get older, part of me is being reclaimed. I missed that part. Which makes me more tolerant, I guess.
This is not to say that I no longer advocate those things, because I do, 100%. I am just learning that I can't change people and I cant make up their minds. I can inform, and then I walk away and re enter my own life. I live my life according to my standards. I cannot live others, and I am trying to learn not to upset my own health and sanity by allowing it to eat at me.
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Old 05-21-2004, 05:30 PM
 
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You know there is some truth to fairskinned red heads having sore nipples. Its not common but I personally worked with a woman who had a perfect latch. She also worked with a LC and LLL leader, but once she was going back to work I worked with her one on one.

This woman had sore nipples the whole 10 months she nursed. She really wanted to stop around 6 months and I was so happy she continued until 10 months.

I don't feel I'm ever hostile to people about the benefits of breastfeeding. I haven't even nursed in almost 2 years now. But, I feel I have this passion and mission to help people to do just that. If I come across someone who is so outraged by breastfeeding, well thats to much work and its really hard to change someones opinion when others are rooting her on with the bottle.

But this boards give me a chance to express my opinion and even if it changes a few minds, I'm happy with that.
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Firemom
You know there is some truth to fairskinned red heads having sore nipples. Its not common but I personally worked with a woman who had a perfect latch. She also worked with a LC and LLL leader, but once she was going back to work I worked with her one on one.

This woman had sore nipples the whole 10 months she nursed. She really wanted to stop around 6 months and I was so happy she continued until 10 months.

.

Just slightly T but this is very true! I am a fair skinned redhead and was horribly sore for the first 6 weeks. I also have..er, rather *had* very short, small nipples. Everyone kept telling me that if ds was latched properly, I shouldn't be having any pain...so I was terrified that there was something wrong with his latch and that we were doing something wrong. His latch was PERFECT. I was sooooooooooo keyed up about this tho! The almighty latch and all, until a kindly nurse in my LC's office said to me "Dear, we all don't have 'Sears Catalogue Nipples'. Even tho your babe is latched and nursing fine, it may just take awhile for your nipples to stretch and adjust". She was right!

My good friend, who is also very fair and a redhead, had cracked and bleeding nipples for at least the first 6 mos with her first and pain the entire time (he weaned at just over a year). It was worlds different with her second and third tho.

BF wasn't something I felt passionate about before I BF'd a child, but now, it's pretty amazing just *HOW* passionate I feel about it! I have to remind myself that the real villans in all of this are the formula companies tho. It's hard to hear things like 'Well, it was just too time consuming' or 'I tried for 2 WHOLE DAYS before I quit' and not feel slightly annoyed. The worst is when I share my initial breastfeeding woes with someone and I get "Wow, why did you bother? Why didn't you just give him a bottle?" in return. Now *THAT* ENRAGES ME!! It's like it undermines my whoel struggle...deflates my balloon, yk?

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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Old 05-24-2004, 05:24 PM
 
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Firemom--
I didn't say that I didn't believe that fair skinned woman have more difficulties with nipple soreness (SIL is blonde not a redhead). I just felt that she took the one item out of the book that might of been discouraging and ran with it. I venture to guess that her every other feeding technique didn't help her nipples much either. I also had my share of first hand difficulties with sore nipples (My ds had to be latch super perfect to not cause soreness) and also bleeding and cracking. It did go away; it didn't go away in two weeks which all the time she gave it. Intellectually I know she was going the best she could, but I was (and apparntly still am) too emotionally involved to be objective about the situation.
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Old 05-24-2004, 08:25 PM
 
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I wasn't putting any blame on you, but I did just want to point out (since I worked with a woman who struggles for 10 months with it and the point was that she did think breastfeeding was important enough that she wanted to continue no matter how much it hurt her
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Old 05-25-2004, 02:53 PM
 
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Firemom--
I am greatful my nipples didn't hurt that long. I am also impressed by your friend and her perseverance.
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Old 05-25-2004, 05:10 PM
 
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I really wonder if there is something hormonal about feeling so angry about other people choice to not breastfeed (either at all or exclusively as in the case of the OP). I noticed that your youngest if just a few months.
I still have strong emotional reactions and dd weaned over three years ago, so your theory does not apply to me.

I feel strong sadness and anger about our anti-breastfeeding culture when I see a mom bottle feeding. I feel angry that our culture (medical, tv ads, magazines, fellow moms) pushes formula and often give bf-sabotaging advice, I feel angry remembering my own experiences.

I find that the younger the baby is, the more likely the mom is to look sad if she is holding the bottle, which of course makes me feel sad. Truly, I see a lot of sad looking moms holding bottles and newborns in public. I always wonder is it PPD, do they feel isolated, or do those moms seem sad because they are mourning the loss of bf, because they "had to" supplement (due to bad advice that wasn't even true OR true need to supplement, or due to fearing criticism for nursing in public, etc. etc. etc.)

Take the time to heal from your marriage before you move on with someone else. Make a list of all the qualities you would like in a new partner and then work on growing that way yourself. ~mandib50
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