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#1 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The recent thread about formula/bottle feeding has gotten me thinking. I bottle feed, but I pump for my baby. She has a cleft palate that was diagnosed at 5 weeks of age. She is not able to physically generate the suction required to nurse.

There wasn't even a second thought about formula feeding. I had to in the beginning, because my supply was very compromised at the time of her diagnosis. I was only pumping about 10 ounces a day. But I started pumping immediately. My goal was first to get my supply back up and get my precious baby off the formula.

I was torn about the formula. I hated giving it to her. It smelled bad, she had horrible gas from it, her poops stank, her breath stank. And I felt like a failure for not having figured out the problem earlier. On the other hand, I was so relieved that I was able to finally feed her. She was so skinny. It broke my heart, but I was constantly trying to feed her before. She was on the breast, literally all day long. But the poor thing simply couldn't get anything from me. I had been doing breast compressions for her to stimulate a let down. She never cried very much either. I think she just gave up on me, and would suck on her hands and fingers when hungry. It still breaks my heart to think of her so hungry, and my not fixing it immediately. I think part of me will always have that guilt and anguish.

It took several weeks, but I did finally get my supply up. I was pumping 9 times a day for 30 minutes a pump. I was taking every herb under the sun. I was drinking a gallon of water a day, and getting up twice at night. I felt like I was either, pumping, washing bottles, feeding the baby or changing a diaper. I was letting tv take care of my 3 year old, who didn't understand why she couldn't nurse whenever she wanted to anymore. I still have guilt over that as well.

It has been the absolute hardest thing I have ever done in my life. And I would do it all over again if I had to. Emily is now about to be 6 months in a couple of weeks and it is finally getting a little easier. I am pumping 4-5 times a day, not getting up in the middle of the night anymore, and feeling a little more at peace with my decisions. I still have a hope that she will be able to nurse after her surgery to repair the cleft (between 2-3 months from now), as she is still able to latch on when I put her to the breast.

I have found, when I talk to others that they don't really understand what I'm doing and why (with a couple of exceptions from people who have either btdt, or know people who have). I'll mention that I'm pumping, and I'll either get a puzzled, "why?", or just a nod of acknowledgement. They don't really get it. They either don't know why it is so important to breastfeed, or they don't understand why pumping is so hard.

So, my question, is whether there are any other exclusive pumpers on MDC? I already belong to a couple of pumping Yahoo groups, but I love the community here so much, I just wanted to know.

So, what's your story?


Bec

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#2 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 05:28 AM
 
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WEllll... I am not puming now but ten years ago I did for my son!!
He wouldn't latch, I "felt" like we had tried everything, he had poor suction a short toungue, plus he was tounge tied. i pumped every time after he had a bottle. I could pump 11 ounces out of one side, Yes one side, I had tons of milk. i did get him to latch for 2 weeks using a nipple shiled. I ened up with almost no milk( I Know now that the nipple shiled was why my supply went down so much) I gave him a bottle of formula and he wouldn't latch anymore, not even to the sheild I was a mess! emotinally I was in the middle of PPD, I had no idea that's what it was. My family was not supportive they just seen a scared frustrated new mom, and "of course" ff would "cure" all of my-our problems. my friends were distant, I think they thought it was gross to feed my baby my expressed milk. I rented a hospital grade elctric pump went on medication( I can't rember which one) I tryed to keep up with him, but around 10 weeks I was still not meeting his needs. at 3 months I pumped and I couldn't get anything out. I pumped some more, I got this really thin-- no hindmilk, milk!! He was refusing the bottles of my milk. I was totally crushed, as a woman and a mother
I started to ff fed him. This stared the most horific year of my-our lives. he was allergic to EVERYTHING
FF, medications soap food air- I went through so much, so did he



you did say you wanted to hear my story!!!
Tens years later I feel I should have done more!! I wish I did. He was a poor gainer and only weighed 18 pounds at a year.
I am a hard core nurser now!! No ff will ever pass my children lips.

I think you are a wonderful mom! your dd will only benifit from your milk!! keep up the good work momma!! I think there are some other moms who pump exclusivly on here. Good luck and many positive vibes are going your way... I hope she does latch on for you after her sugery!!
Elizabeth

mama to Alex 20 Briana 16 Cory 10 and Jade 3Tubes tied and regret it
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#3 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the story! I know how terrifying it can be to have a baby not gain well, or not at all. I also know how frustrating it can be to not have those concerns taken seriously.

I think the thing that bugs me the most is when people say I'm not breastfeeding. Or when people assume I'm FF. I feel like I want to tell everyone that I'm pumping. I don't want them to assume it's formula (and I know most people do). I work so hard at producing milk for my baby, I just want people to know.

I work way harder to produce milk this way than by nursing. I am constantly worried about and monitoring my supply. I can't just fall into the easy rhythm that I did when I was nursing Katie as a babe. I'm constantly tied down to the pump, can't really go anywhere for long periods of time. even with a car adapter, I need to have somewhere to store my milk afterwards. With summer coming on and the temperature rising, I can't just leave it out for as long (and it really kills me to throw out spoiled milk). I never had to worry about this when I nursed.

I'm trying to be low key about getting her to re-latch after the surgery. I don't want to set a high expectation, and then have a big fall afterwards.

Wow, I guess I have a lot to say about this. It's been a wild and crazy experience.


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#4 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 09:30 AM
 
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First off, I want to say good for you!! I had to pump for 3 weeks, and I know how hard it is. My babe was born early and spent time in the NICU (only 6 days, thank god). I had semi-flat nipples and Duncan was a bit jaundiced as well (required no light therapy though). He tried so hard to latch, but just couldn't without a shield. I got such bad advice about pumping from the hospital staff (except one great nurse who helped me a lot). He got what little I could pump from the very beginning, plus formula for those 6 days. It was only about 2 or 3 days after he got home when I had built my supply up enough to quit formula (and he hasn't gotten any since). I would pump every time he took a bottle of EBM. I was about 24 hours ahead with my supply most of the time, since I could pump 8-10 OZ a session. Then at 3 weeks, he just latched (probably due to many factors including the pump helping my nipples come out). It was hard work for the next week or two, and quite painful too.....but I'm so glad we stuck with it. It is so much easier to just nurse than it was to pump and then bottlefeed. I didn't know how much longer I could go on like that, but luckily we worked it all out.

You're a GREAT mama for giving your babe your breastmilk. I don't NIP (my own issues) so I pump when we're going to be gone for more than an hour or two. I got theese great bottles from Lansinoh with "My Mommy's Milk" printed on the side. They are awesome and make me feel more proud about how I'm feeding my babe.

EPing is way harder than just nursing....you're a wonderful mama for doing what you can to give your babe the best food there is!
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#5 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlin
You're a GREAT mama for giving your babe your breastmilk. I don't NIP (my own issues) so I pump when we're going to be gone for more than an hour or two. I got theese great bottles from Lansinoh with "My Mommy's Milk" printed on the side. They are awesome and make me feel more proud about how I'm feeding my babe.

EPing is way harder than just nursing....you're a wonderful mama for doing what you can to give your babe the best food there is!

Thanks! I use the My Mommy's Milk to store milk that I freeze. Because of her cleft, Emily can't drink from a normal bottle that requires suction. So I have special bottles for her, and can't use the bags. The different shape of the bottle (it kind of looks like a glue bottle) and nipple are often enough to open up a dialog with people I am around, but I've been thinking of sticking a label on them that says Breastmilk.

What I loved about NIP was that I felt it was my own subtle way to encourage others to nurse. My thought was that if enough people saw babies being nursed all over the place, it would start to be "normal" again. In fact, if I saw another mom nursing, I would often sit down near her and nurse my baby as well (she was always hungry and wanting to nurse!). With the bottles, I can't do that. And I'm not so keen on pumping in public (with both sides exposed and hooked up, there's no way to be discreet about it!)


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#6 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 11:31 AM
 
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Yay! Good job mama! I pumped exclusively for a year, yes its hard work, but it does get easier and easier, towards the end I was only doing it 3 x's a day, I know a lady irl who was able to do it only 2x's a day and get tons of milk! The hardest part is in the beginning, the constant round the clock, building a good supply pumping!
I alsways had to stay on fenugreek, it did really help me. You sound like you know what you are doing, and its great you know where to go to get support. when I started out, I felt sooo alone.
One thing that helped was to give myself small goals, 2 months, then 6, then 9, then 12months. This made it seem less overwhelming.
I hope your baby is able to bf eventually. What kind of nipple are you using? We used thew haverman for 3 months, then switched to avent, but she never was able to latch on. I made my peace with that,a nd pumping became very much a part of my routine and I was able to do it w/o resentment and sadness, which is important in able to keep up with it long term.
There was nothing I wanted more than to bf this baby. My first had the same problems, and I pumped for her, but not for near as long. I pray my next will nurse like a champ!

There are lots of mamas around here that ep, at one time or another.
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#7 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 11:34 AM
 
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I don't have anything to add--just kudos to you for working so hard to give your child breastmilk!
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#8 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I feed Emily with the Mead Johnson Cleft Palate Nurser. It's a soft plastic that I can squeeze with a cross hatch nipple so she can get the milk out with her tongue and jaw. They are way cheaper and easier to use than the Habermans.

I had great support in the begining. A good friend of mine IRL pumped for 13 months with her first daughter who is about the same age as my first. When I called her to tell her I was going to be pumping and that my supply was extremely low, the first thing she told me was that I couldn't despair for two weeks as I was starting.

I do have lots of pumping goals. I have a long range goal of a year, but I also break that up. Six months, until her surgery, until she latches, sometimes until the next pump!

I am in a routine now, so it has gotten a bit easier.


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#9 of 25 Old 05-31-2004, 01:45 PM
 
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Wow - your story is very inspiring. I am newly pregnant with #2 and started doing the worry thing about cleft palate among other things. Its great to hear that its possible to feed breastmilk.

My ds didn't latch well at all so even tho I exclusively bf for the first 5 days he got very hungry and jaundiced. I felt so guilty. We ended up pumping and using bottles for almost 3 months. I pumped every 3 hours for 20 minutes around the clock, taking herbs and drinking lots, and massaging, and using warm compresses, etc to get my supply up. Fortunately it worked and he was exlusiviely bm after about a week of supplementing with formula. He finally figured out how to nurse about 10 weeks but wasn't consistent until about 12.

I'm glad I did it, but it was tiring. I think I figured out at one point that 1/3 of the day was given over to feeding related activities. Ah well.

Congrats to you for pumping so long.

J
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#10 of 25 Old 06-01-2004, 02:58 AM
 
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It's late, but I wanted to throw my hat into the ring. I posted a thread very much like this a couple of weeks ago. My son is 8.5 months old and I have pumped for him since the day he was born. He was a vacuum delivery, I had an epidural, we were separated for a few hours after birth (oh, the things I will do differently next time!). He was supplemented with formula, via bottle, in the hospital because he wouldn't suck. Well, duh, he probably felt like crap! Anyway, I know that plenty of babies never have a problem with nipple confusion, but I tell you that my son had that first bottle and never looked back. I should have gotten professional help sooner, instead I just figured I could fumble my way through it alone, so I pumped and bottlfed, all the while trying to get him to latch and he refused. I finally saw an IBCLC when he was 4 months old, but by then he was SO resistant that there was nothing they could do. I almost don't like telling my story because it seems to confirm the impression that is out there that sometimes people just "can't" breastfeed, which I truly believe was not the case. I believe that my son was more sensitive than other babies to the situations that he was put in, and that I, through lack of knowledge and confidence, mishandled some of those situations. There was a window, when he was about 3.5 months old, when I know I could have switched him to the breast. I tried nursing him in the bathtub one day and he latched. Just like that. I'm sure it wasn't perfect, but I know he got some milk and it didn't hurt. He didn't have a bottle for the next ENTIRE day. I have never been happier than I was that day. I cried and cried because I was so happy. Then it came time for the last feeding before bedtime. I nursed him and tried to lay him down, and he cried. He usually went down without a fuss, so I thought he must still be hungry. I had so little confidence in my ability to nurse at that point - I had gotten used to bottlefeeding and counting ounces, etc - that I gave him a bottle of EBM, and that was that. He never nursed again. Pumping is part of my life, I too never even considered formula. I cannot do it. It feels utterly wrong to me. I have this milk and my son WILL have it, end of story. He hasn't had formula since the hospital. He was 18 pounds at 4 months. I am so proud of my big, beautiful, healthy son. He smells like a delicious, BF baby, and I love it. However, I mourn the loss of our nursing relationship. I still cry over it, maybe more than I should. I never expected to find myself in this position, and I have great apprehension that I will have the same kinds of problems with my next child, whenever that is. However, now I have a network of IBCLCs to help me, and I have more knowledge to advocate for myself, especially in the beginning. Luckily, my family is VERY supportive, both of BF and my EPing. Sorry so long, I'll cut it off now because it's late, but I just wanted you to know that we're out here! Hugs to you, mama!
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#11 of 25 Old 06-01-2004, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the story. I sometimes feel so alone in this. I have one friend IRL who pumped for her first daughter. She has been an inspiration for me since she started doing this. I never expected to be in the same situation.

I had some problems getting my first to latch. She was a C-section, and in the NICU (unnecesarily, I believe). This presented many problems, but the day after we got home, she was nursing pretty well. Her latch wasn't great, and it took us a month or so to get it all figured out. But we're still nursing after over 3 years.

I guess I'm just so sad that Emily and I won't have that same relationship.

I am still keeping my hopes up, however. I will try to latch her on occasionally. She is still able to do it. I think her first 5 weeks may have cemented her ability to do it. But I know she doesn't expect any milk to come from it.

She was so skinny when I started pumping. Her birthweight is up in the air. She was either 10'7oz, or 9'7oz. Either way, she lost a tremendous amount of weight. By 5 weeks, she was down to 7'8oz. It was the most terrifying experiences I have ever had. I thought she was going to die. I have spent a lot of time and energy beating myself up uselessly about that.

To my great joy, as soon as she started getting the pumped milk and formula (we had to supplement as much as I hated it, I just wasn't producing enough at that time), she started gaining like nobody's business. She gained a pound in 5 days. She went from the 5th percentile at almost 6 weeks, to over 50th by 4 months. She now has fat rolls, and chubby ankles and wrists. Her little neck has rolls on it.

I am thankful everyday that she has suffered no lasting effects from her early starvation. She is either meeting or beating all of her developmental milestones. She is a perfectly normal baby.

I can't begin to express the rage I have at the Doctors and nurses that missed her cleft for so long. No, it doesn't go through her lip, but if you just look into her mouth, it is as plain as day. There has never been an apology from them, and there has never been an acknowledgement that they dropped the ball. When I was sitting, stunned, in the Dr.'s office after he told me she had a cleft palate, I asked him if this was why she wasn't nursing well, and why she was losing weight (duh! But, what did I know?), he responded, "Maybe." I can't print what I think about him for this.

Anyway, I have a stubborn streak in me, and have been determined to breastfeed my children. If she doesn't latch after her surgery, I don't know if I'll go much past a year. But who knows.

It's nice to talk to women who really understand what it takes to commit to this.


Bec

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#12 of 25 Old 06-01-2004, 11:23 AM
 
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I just wanted to say good for you! I only pump a couple times a week but I just really wanted to say I admire what you are doing for your baby. I understand about people thinking you ff, or questioning why you are doing this. (making you feel like it's not worth it) It's hard but hopefully the hardest part is over.

Good luck! and 's to you!
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#13 of 25 Old 06-01-2004, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I do feel like I've reached a turning point. It was really hard about a month ago, and a friend of mine told me it gets easier right around 6 months. I knew that in my mind, but it was hard to convince my heart about it.

But it has gotten easier. I am experimenting with pumping 4 times a day now, and seeing how my output is. it has gone down a little, but I am still able to freeze some every day or so, so I'm still ahead of Emily. She is on some solids right now, and that makes a difference.

Thanks for the support!


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#14 of 25 Old 06-01-2004, 12:10 PM
 
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Yeah, when they start on solids it definitely takes some of the pressure off you. My son was slow to warm up to them, he is 8.5 months now and has solids 2-3 times a day. I am currently pumping 4-5x a day, down from 8+. I was able to stop pumping at night when he was only a couple of months old - he started sleeping through the night then (it was short lived, then he resumed nightwaking) and I found my supply adjusted so that even when he started waking to eat again several times a night, I was able to pump enough in the morning (15 oz. or so) to make up for it. Now he's sleeping through again, and I am freezing 5-10 oz. a day. I have committed to pump for 1 year, and I think I will continue after that, just not so religiously. Like, if I go out for the evening I'm not going to take the pump with me. I won't pump at church anymore (actually haven't been doing that for awhile). I will just relax a little! It is good to hear other people's stories - when we all have our next babies, we can support each other to make sure we are all able to have the breastfeeding relationship we want so badly!
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#15 of 25 Old 06-01-2004, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I do think it is almost harder because I do have that relationship with dd1. I know exactly what I am missing.

I would have chosen to delay the solids a little longer, but Emily has made it very clear that she is ready and able! She was giving every readiness sign, and just loves to get her little meals. Dd1 didn't show much interest until she was about 8 months old and able to have finger food, but dd2 is totally into the pureed avocado & breastmilk, or sweet potato & breastmilk. It is something of a relief now that it isn't totally me, kwim? It's only mostly me.


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#16 of 25 Old 06-02-2004, 01:28 PM
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Hi, I just wanted to ask a few questions if that's ok. What pump are you using? I am in the middle of re-lactating and using a rented Medela Symphony, it's such a nice pump and for the first time today I actually got a Drop of bm! I an afford to keep renting the pump for about two months and then I am going to have to use the Pump in Style that I already have. I have written to Medela and they tell me that the Pump in Style in an excellent pump to keep your supply up and the rented one is perfect for getting a supply. I'm worried that if I have to exclusivly pump I won't be able to keep my supply up. Am I being silly? I am taking Motilium, Fenugreek, Blessed Thistle, a woman multi-vitamin, extra calcium/magnesium and Vitex, and I'm eating a big bowl of oatmeal every morning. I have tried to put him to the breast (he's 3 months), but he screams. I think mostly it's because there's nothing there, so I have decided to wait until I am producing some milk he can actually get himself before I try again. I am prepared to exclusively pump, if that's what I have to do. He really enjoys his bottles because I do hold him very close and talk to him, so we get some special bonding time that way. I don't find pumping too bad. I am pumping every two hours from 7am to 1-2am. I'm tired, is that normal? I could usually stay up well past midnight, but since I started pumping I can't keep my eyes open past ten. I have two dd's that know what I am trying to do and are being great at giving me my 15 min every 2 hours. I think I'm mostly worried about my supply dwindling when I have to switch pumps, and we're not even sure if I'm going to be able to get a full supply back.
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#17 of 25 Old 06-02-2004, 04:54 PM
 
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I have been EPing for my 23 mo old dd (w/ a 4 mo break when I was preggo w/ #2) and been EPing for ds since birth in Dec 03. After working w/ several nurses and LCs w/ #1 over several weeks, I decided that I was not a happy mommy and didn't have a happy baby. Life was so much better when I just decided to EP. It took a long time to get over the 'failure,' but through the support of numerous people online and in my life I did it. W/ #2, I was able to get him to latch right before I left the hospital, but I developed a severe case of mastisis and plugged ducts that kept me ill in bed for a week. Ds did not want to nurse when my breasts were super engorged and I was not pumping very much because everything was clogged. DH cared for ds and fed him via bottle until I got better a week later. Ds would not latch after that and cried everytime he was put to the breast. Instead of dealing w/ the same emotional issues as I did w/ #1 for 10 weeks, I decided to just EP since I was use to the routine, was very tired, had to care for my 18 mo old and just needed to move on. I knew that if I was emotionally ready, I could still come back to the issue of possible getting him to relatch (which I am doing now). I am not really expecting a whole lot, but why not give it a shot. Eping allowed me to give dd MM again and has made it easier to have a routine for my 2 kids and I.

Jenni
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#18 of 25 Old 06-02-2004, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjr
Hi, I just wanted to ask a few questions if that's ok. What pump are you using?
Ask away! I have seen your other threads asking questions about re-lactating, and I think what you are doing is fabulous . I use the Medela Lactina (I think that is one step down from the Symphony). I used it to rebuild my supply, and am using it for maintenance as well. My understanding is that the PIS is great for maintaining a supply, but not so good for building it up (so it's good for you to use the Symphony for a couple of months).

It sounds like you are doing everything "right" in the pumping and supplement department. Remember to stay away from decongestants as they tend to dry up your milk as well as your mucous membranes. Also, stay away from sage.

I have found myself very sleepy when I pump. When you nurse, or pump, oxytocin is released. This makes you feel relaxed and sleepy. It's your body's way of making you feel good while nursing your baby. Also, your body is working really hard to produce the milk. It takes energy, lots of it. You aren't just sitting around, you are producing food! Remember to eat and drink lots. This will help you keep your energy up. Also, you are only getting about 5-6 hours of sleep a night, and running after 3 children. That's a big load to do on very little rest!

You might consider getting an SNS to encourage him to latch. This way, he will be get the instant gratification of food, while still suckling and helping you to produce milk! While the pumps are great, there is nothing like a baby's suck to really make your body step up to the plate, so to speak. When you do feed him a bottle, try to do it naked from the waist up and hold the bottle as close to your breast as possible.

I totally understand about not wanting to get your hopes up too high about getting him to latch on. I have been in a holding pattern with Emily since she was 5 weeks. I have been trying to be very low key with it. I will try to latch her on only when things are calm, quiet, and we're both in a good mood. I was able to do it a couple of weeks ago, so I'm cautiously optimistic. But we still have 2-3 months to go before her surgery.

I hope I answered all your questions. Please ask away if you have any more!

Good luck Jenni on getting your son to latch again. I didn't appreciate how hard it was going to be with two when it was just Katie and I. It has been such an adjustment. Sometimes you just have to do whatever it takes to make things work. It has seemed that 5 months was kind of a turning point for us. Emily has been a little easier, and so has Katie. We've all kind of fallen into a routine.

Anyway, I have to run!


Bec

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#19 of 25 Old 06-02-2004, 06:49 PM
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I did get the SNS, and I tried it yesturday will complete failure. He freaked when I tried to get him to latch. Screamed bloody murder, so I stopped. I have another appointment with the lactation doctor on Monday and she is going to show me how to do it properly and hopefully successfully. I have been getting a little more bm with every pumping session, today. It really gets me motivated to keep things up.
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#20 of 25 Old 06-02-2004, 07:21 PM
 
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I'm not pumping exclusively, but I am pumping to build up my supply so I can give my nephew expressed milk, because he's formula fed and miserable.
I'm doing good, feeding my babe, and slowly building up more for my nephew. I hope to someday be able to give him at least a couple of bottles a day, as well as have some left over for my daughter just in case.

Anyhoo, I think you are wonderful for striving to give your baby the very best!

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#21 of 25 Old 06-03-2004, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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cjr - It is exciting to see those totals go up! I have been writing down my totals and keeping the notebooks that I write them in. It's kind of like a weird diary or something. How much are producing daily? Don't be discouraged with the latching part. Be patient and slow. Hopefully he'll get it soon!


Rach - Wow! Your nephew is one lucky babe! I'm very impressed.

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#22 of 25 Old 06-03-2004, 01:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bec
Rach - Wow! Your nephew is one lucky babe! I'm very impressed.
He's the cutest! He got a full bottle today (before we were just mixing so he'd get used to the taste) and he gulped it down!
I know my sister would do the same for my Eva.

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#23 of 25 Old 06-03-2004, 12:07 PM
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How much am I producing daily? Well, I must have gotten a total of 20 drops, yesturday. I pumped 10 times and got a large drop from each breast each time. LOL Compared to 0 drops the day before, it's progress. I am only one week into re-lactating, so I figure it will be a couple of weeks before I get enough to give him.
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#24 of 25 Old 06-03-2004, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Think of it this way, you've increased your production twenty times!

If you can even get those couple of drops into his bottle, do it!

And congrats again on getting him to latch.



Bec

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#25 of 25 Old 06-03-2004, 04:40 PM
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I am thrilled at my progress. When he latched again, this afternoon, he nursed for 5 min and after he pulled off I could still express a few drops by hand. I think this hospital grade pump is really helping, but if I can get him to latch after every pump then I'm sure in no time I will be supplimenting less and less.
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