should women unwilling to breastfeed rather not have children? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: should a woman totally unwilling to breastfeed rather not have children?
yes, she shouldn't 53 19.85%
no, I don't think so 120 44.94%
don't know,depends on her reasons 94 35.21%
Voters: 267. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-17-2005, 11:06 PM
 
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I apologize if my comparisons didn't get my point across. But, my point wasn't what the OP questioned.

Should women who are UNWILLING to breastfeed rather not have children?

No. Still.

I am currently, slowly and patiently weaning my 4 yr old (her 4th birthday is on Feb 20th). For the most part I have enjoyed our breastfeeding relationship. In comparison to many others we have had it easy (no mastitis, nursing strikes, etc). However, nursing has become unpleasant, to the point of the feeling of fingernails on a chalkboard. It is horrifying and uncomfortable. This has been occuring for the past several months.

I have made the decision, that if we have another child, I will not breastfeed. I may for the first few months, but not over 6 months. Yet, I will continue to practice natural and logical parenting, feed on demand, refrain from vaxxing, use cloth diapers, use a sling, etc. But my personal sanity needs to come first when raising children. Why? Because I love my child (future children) so much that I want their emotional environment to be safe and nurturing. Just as I want with my breastfed child.
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Of course breast is best. No one here is questioning that. Sheesh.

Now I am wondering, how is all of this judgment of individuals who choose to formula feed serving the cause? Is this helping to convince women about the superiority of breastfeeding? Cause I am *all about* increasing the numbers of breastfeeding mamas. I just don't think this attitude is productive. I think it is divisive and off-putting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS PLACE...

... is that many of us are bf advocates who are choosing to look at the larger cultural context in which women raise our babies, rather than using breastfeeding as yet another misogynist high horse from which we can look down on and judge as unworthy other women. Boy is that vibe getting old.

What has happened to this place is that some of us are less hung up on our own perceived superiority and are looking to how we can actually shift the world toward a more supportive environment for mamas and babes.

I LIKE WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS PLACE.
Well said.

I got really pissed off about this thread after I left it last night and reflected on it. Coming back to it now, almost 24 hours and 3 pages later, I'm just .

Time for me to bow out.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:57 PM
 
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Nobody but an individual woman has the right to decide whether she will or will not have a baby. Nobody but an individual woman has a right to decide what she does with her own body. Period.
I voted "no I don't think so" but it should read " H#LL NO!! "
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:04 AM
 
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If this conversation was about any other AP principle.....it would be going a totally different direction!!! :

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 12:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
If this conversation was about any other AP principle.....it would be going a totally different direction!!! :
Possibly. I think it just goes to show how diverse the population here at Mothering is and that there really is no set definition of what attachment parenting is or should be.
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BlueStateMama
It's interesting that breastfeeding is still one of the basic AP core beliefs that is still up for debate here. I believe we're on the same page in that we're talking about FF BY CHOICE, being unwilling to at least TRY to BF. No one gets up in arms if you say circing, CIO, and spanking are not acceptable, but it's still a big bruhahaha when someone takes the position that FF by choice is unacceptable (here, within the thinkings of MDC.) I just don't get it.
It is one thing for MDC (and it's members) to say that RIC, CIO, spanking, and refusing to breastfeed are all wrong choices.

It is entirely another to say that people who RIC, CIO, spank, and formula feed are unfit parents. I am not comfortable with that conclusion--even for spanking--which is my *HOT* button issue. I am able to hold two truths in my mind: spanking is completely wrong, and some people who spank are still good parents.

No one is debating the superiority of breastfeeding. There is no debate, no comparison.....we are breastfeeders and we are in the right....oh, doesn't it feel good to be right?!

We are debating whether a woman who chooses not to try breastfeeding is an unfit parent. I can't imagine why drawing such a conclusion would be useful and productive?
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:12 AM
 
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I don't consider being "unwilling "to breastfeed a show of diversity in the MDC Community. I think it is totally against what MDC stands for.

Key word: UNWILLING to breastfeed.....this does not include mamas with DIFFICULTIES breastfeeding.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 12:14 AM
 
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I just waded thru all six pages, and here I am

First of all, no one is claiming to want to legislate that moms who don't breastfeed shouldn't have children, and no one is saying that if you're not breastfed you shouldn't have been born, etc. I read thru all the posts and no one said those things. Strange.

The gist of what I'm getting is, is that there are some women out there - I've met a whole bunch of them myself - who don't even consider breastfeeding because it's gross, makes your boobs sag, etc. etc. Some posters are merely suggesting that if women are this "shallow", maybe they aren't really mature enough to be moms yet.

I'd have to agree with that sentiment. Of course no one would ever legislate it and I won't go as far as to say they shouldn't have kids. It just makes sense to me that if they are that concerned with superficial things, they may not be ready for the realities of parenthood quite yet.
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
I just waded thru all six pages, and here I am

First of all, no one is claiming to want to legislate that moms who don't breastfeed shouldn't have children, and no one is saying that if you're not breastfed you shouldn't have been born, etc. I read thru all the posts and no one said those things. Strange.

The gist of what I'm getting is, is that there are some women out there - I've met a whole bunch of them myself - who don't even consider breastfeeding because it's gross, makes your boobs sag, etc. etc. Some posters are merely suggesting that if women are this "shallow", maybe they aren't really mature enough to be moms yet.

I'd have to agree with that sentiment. Of course no one would ever legislate it and I won't go as far as to say they shouldn't have kids. It just makes sense to me that if they are that concerned with superficial things, they may not be ready for the realities of parenthood quite yet.
perfectly worded
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:19 AM
 
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Can we separate the superiority of breastfeeding from the superiority of breastfeeders?
Or are those one in the same?

I feel they would be separate. I breastfed for 18 months, but I am infinitely flawed. I'm sure I screwed something else up. I am sure there is a mama in the world who chose to FF who is a better parent than me in some significant way. Maybe she has more patience than me? Maybe she is more playful? Maybe she buys more organic food for her weaned children? Maybe she provides them better healthcare?
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:22 AM
 
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It is not the FFing I have a problem with.

It is the self centeredness of mamas who are "unwilling" to bf that freaks me out!!!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 12:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
First of all, no one is claiming to want to legislate that moms who don't breastfeed shouldn't have children, and no one is saying that if you're not breastfed you shouldn't have been born, etc. I read thru all the posts and no one said those things. Strange..
Legislate it? Who was thinking that?

IMO, all you have to do is *believe it*, and you are doing harm to the cause: building women up so that they have the confidence to buck society and breastfeed! Who cares about breast shape! Who cares what the ped says! Who cares what friends/partner/family says! Who cares what store clerks and letter-to-the-editor writer say about NIP! I am confident, I know I am doing what is best, and I am going to breastfeed!

For a lot of women, I bet that takes a lot of confidence. Let's build women up! Not knock them down!
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
I breastfed for 18 months, but I am infinitely flawed. I'm sure I screwed something else up. I am sure there is a mama in the world who chose to FF who is a better parent than me in some significant way. Maybe she has more patience than me? Maybe she is more playful? Maybe she buys more organic food for her weaned children? Maybe she provides them better healthcare?
Mmmm hmmmm. What she said. Her. I'm with her. Right there.
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:26 AM
 
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I am starting to get confused about what we are talking about!!!

I must have major communication problems!!!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 12:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
I am starting to get confused about what we are talking about!!!

I must have major communication problems!!!

mm, I don't think it's you

I just think there are 2 trains here.. going different ways, that's all (you and I are on the same one, btw!)
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:33 AM
 
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I am frustrated to see the "natural community" defending something so unnatural!!!

I am disappointed.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 12:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
I am frustrated to see the "natural community" defending something so unnatural!!!

I am disappointed.
Are you truly unable to grasp the difference between defending A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO HAVE A CHILD, one of her most fundamental rights, and defending elective formula feeding?

One of those things is happening in this thread. The other is not.

I'll give you a hint... it's the FIRST thing that's happening, not the second.
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:56 AM
 
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Thanks for the hint Kay.....that was very sweet of you! (Yes...that was snarky)

Her right to have children is barely being discussed. Numerous excuses for why formula feeding is ok keep coming up instead.

Do I think it should be up to gov. to decide who should have children??? NO!!!

If asked to give my own opinion, do I think mamas who are "unwilling" to bf should have babies...I would have to say no, she does not seem ready to have one based on the selfishness of her opinion on bfing.

What is discouraging are all of the BS excuses being thrown around as to why it is OK to be unwilling to bf!!!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 01:21 AM
 
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The reason I think that breastfeeding has to be treated differently from the rest of the AP practices is because it is the only one that directly relates to a woman's control over her own body. Okay, but there I go back again - I was just about to write, "I don't think anyone has the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body", but then I got to thinking, what if a mom was pregnant and taking drugs, that's not right. Is that really any different than a mother choosing not to give breastmilk to her child? The whole issue is so confusing and devisive because two sets of rights are involved. The right of the mom to self-determination and the right of the child to receive the best nutrition, etc.

After my experience with many moms who started out wanting to breastfeed and then received crappy or no support from family and friends, bad and inaccurate advice from the medical community, harrassment from strangers in public, etc., etc., I think that the only productive thing we can do is work on changing society before we start condeming mothers and saying that they shouldn't reproduce.

So, lift your shirts higher mamas and show a little more skin. I think everyone "knows" that breastfeeding is better, but now we just need to show people it is normal and that a lot more mamas are doing it than most people think.
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Thanks for the hint Kay.....that was very sweet of you! (Yes...that was snarky)

Her right to have children is barely being discussed. Numerous excuses for why formula feeding is ok keep coming up instead.

Do I think it should be up to gov. to decide who should have children??? NO!!!

If asked to give my own opinion, do I think mamas who are "unwilling" to bf should have babies...I would have to say no, she does not seem ready to have one based on the selfishness of her opinion on bfing.

What is discouraging are all of the BS excuses being thrown around as to why it is OK to be unwilling to bf!!!

Our right to have children IS being discussed simply by stating the opinion that women who are UNWILLING to breastfeed should rather NOT have children, because, of lack of maturity, selfishness, etc.

Some may say women who choose not to vax their children show immaturity just as there are posters who believe not breastfeeding shows lack of maturity. Are either views correct? It's all relative I suppose. I would say neither show a lack of maturity, but, based on individual circumstances shows a great caring and concern for her children. How can anyone say that a woman who does not CHOOSE to breastfeed loves her child any less than someone who does? Perhaps this woman has been HONEST with herself in exploring breastfeeding and understands that for whatever reason it will not benefit her child above a nutritional one, and decides based on a great deal of soul searching, discussion, and prayer(meditation), and weighing the odds, that her unique, individual child would thrive and mature and become a better adjusted person if she not breastfeed. THIS is the conclusion I have come to. The emotional wellbeing of my future child DOES outweigh the nutritional benfits of breastfeeding (long term).

*just an opinion from the other side )
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:30 AM
 
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Teresa...I respectfully ask the following...

Why not bf for the first few months at least? Did you have trouble in the beginning with dd?
I am sorry that you are having difficulties. It is painful both emotionally and physically.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 01:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva
Our right to have children IS being discussed simply by stating the opinion that women who are UNWILLING to breastfeed should rather NOT have children, because, of lack of maturity, selfishness, etc...
NO. That is not the same thing.
Saying "You shouldn't drink straight vinegar" is NOT the same as saying "You don't have a right to drink vinegar if you want to."

NOBODY is saying that these women don't have a right to bear children if they want, even if they plan to FF.

What we ARE saying, is we don't think it's a great idea for women who plan to FF to go right ahead and have kids.
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82
NO. That is not the same thing.
Saying "You shouldn't drink straight vinegar" is NOT the same as saying "You don't have a right to drink vinegar if you want to."

NOBODY is saying that these women don't have a right to bear children if they want, even if they plan to FF.

What we ARE saying, is we don't think it's a great idea for women who plan to FF to go right ahead and have kids.
Thank you!!!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 01:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
Her right to have children is barely being discussed. Numerous excuses for why formula feeding is ok keep coming up instead.
Isn't that the title of the thread?
I mean, seriously, that *is* what I am talking about. Not revoking legal rights...nothing as literal as that.....but a sentiment coming out of the AP community that mothers who elect not to try breastfeeding should not have had children. I hope that is not our message.....

Not excuses why formula feeding is ok....reasons people choose not to breastfeed. Be they good or bad, rational or irrational, selfish or selfless....they are the reasons for their choice. Labeling those reasons as "bad" is not helpful. Empathising with women, supporting women, and effecting positive change is helpful. Women choose not to breastfeed because they fear changes in breast shape? How can we change that? How can we promote healthier body image? How can we celebrate the bodies of mothers? We can start with our vocabulary, and our example, and maybe we can work with the media....

Calling that mama selfish and immature is not helpful That will make her feel even worse about herself. But if we know and respect her reason, we have a concrete place to start. If promoting breastfeeding is the goal (and I think it is for everyone here), I honestly think this is approach will be MUCH more productive than sending the message that women who formula feed (by choice) are unfit mothers.
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:39 AM
 
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Seriously, what is the goal? To be right, or to actually promote breastfeeding?
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama
Isn't that the title of the thread?
I mean, seriously, that *is* what I am talking about. Not revoking legal rights...nothing as literal as that.....but a sentiment coming out of the AP community that mothers who elect not to try breastfeeding should not have had children. I hope that is not our message.....

Not excuses why formula feeding is ok....reasons people choose not to breastfeed. Be they good or bad, rational or irrational, selfish or selfless....they are the reasons for their choice. Labeling those reasons as "bad" is not helpful. Empathising with women, supporting women, and effecting positive change is helpful. Women choose not to breastfeed because they fear changes in breast shape? How can we change that? How can we promote healthier body image? How can we celebrate the bodies of mothers? We can start with our vocabulary, and our example, and maybe we can work with the media....

Calling that mama selfish and immature is not helpful That will make her feel even worse about herself. But if we know and respect her reason, we have a concrete place to start. If promoting breastfeeding is the goal (and I think it is for everyone here), I honestly think this is approach will be MUCH more productive than sending the message that women who formula feed (by choice) are unfit mothers.
I totally agree with you.

I guess my frustration comes from moms, who dispite education, information, and support, are unwilling to bf. That really saddens me! Not to even try!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-18-2005, 01:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Empathising with women, supporting women, and effecting positive change is helpful. Women choose not to breastfeed because they fear changes in breast shape? How can we change that? How can we promote healthier body image? How can we celebrate the bodies of mothers? We can start with our vocabulary, and our example, and maybe we can work with the media....

: This made me teary! I think I you sunnmama!
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:42 AM
 
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Such a hard thing.

Part of me wants to support other women in loving respectful parenting, even if that parenting doesn't include breastfeeding.

Part of me feels like I have no right to judge anyone else. A lot of people would probably judge me for the decisions I made or didn't make.

Part of me feels like there are too many people out there disseminating bad information about breastfeeding. Especially pediatricians.

Part of me feels like formula companies are to blame for their heinous marketing practices.

But a bigger part of me feels like there is enough information out there about the benefits of breastfeeding that women who are going to become mothers have no excuse not to breastfeed. It is superior engineered nutrition for that your baby. If human babies didn't need human milk our bodies wouldn't make it.

And a bigger part of me feels totally pissed off that I have to hear from friends who do tons of research on what kind of stroller is coolest and what kind of pattern they will get for the crib but then choose to ignore the research on breastfeeding. Who cares what the baby rides in - isn't it more important what goes in the baby? I don't want to hear any more stories about how you couldn't/ didn't want to/ felt tied down, blah blah blah. Somehow it seems like formula feeders have carte blanche to tell me why breastfeeding sucks but I'm a nazi if I try to counter the argument. If I'm being judged why shouldn't it go both ways?

And a bigger part of me wants to ask people why on earth they ask their pediatricians for advice about breastfeeding. They are not trained lactation consultants. Would you let your podiatrist prescribe high blood pressure medication to you? If a dermatologist suggested you have open heart surgery would you do it?

As for formula companies, they are trying to make money. It's our responsibility as consumers to check out what we're buying and beware of taking advice from organizations (or people) who stand to gain something from the choices we make. Don't put your head in the sand when it comes to the health and safety of your kids. Not breastfeeding increases the risk of just about every health condition under the sun! Seriously. Another post mentioned smoking. Remember that it took a while for Phillip Morris and the like to come under widespread public scrutiny. It's only a matter of time.


I'll admit breastfeeding is a hot button for me. But ultimately I agree with the other posters that said it's a maturity thing. Parenting involves a LOT of putting your child's needs before your own. A woman who chooses not to breastfeed is putting her own preference before the needs of her child, and should probably grow up a bit before thinking about kids.
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Teresa...I respectfully ask the following...

Why not bf for the first few months at least? Did you have trouble in the beginning with dd?
I am sorry that you are having difficulties. It is painful both emotionally and physically.

Angel,

Thank you, and I am so pleased and proud of all mamas who have participated on this thread, as I believe it has continued to be respectful (in my opinion).

As stated in a previous post, I may breastfeed for a few months, but have acquired a weird feeling while nursing, and like earlier stated, is like nails on a chalkboard. This could be due to the fact that I have nursed for 4 years straight and may need a break

We haven't had any difficulties (physical or emotional), but I think that with my chemical situation (slight imbalance) Kailey and my future child would benefit more from a mother who was less stressed and more focused on her children.

I can't even imagine what it will be like if I *do* get pregnant. I know I will be hitting my doc up for some Sarafem pronto. Which brings me to another question.

Should mothers who need antidepressant medication rather not get pregnant?
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:47 AM
 
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The friend I spoke of earilier put a bad taste in my mouth I think. She spuded ignorant statements and had NO interest in knowing the facts.

Oh and about her boob fear.....not bfing didn't work. She STILL thinks that her boobs would be even saggier if she would have bfed.

Does that make sense??? That kind of attitude pisses me off!!!

I am trying to make big strides to promote bfing. I am a dance instructor and bf my son during my classes. I am constantly drilling my students, male and female, with how beautiful, capable, and perfectly made each one of them are. I have even heard some of my teens discuss how "when they grow up, they are going to bf!"

It is own thing to be respectful. It is another to enable ff by encouraging excuses such as lack of education and support.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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