should women unwilling to breastfeed rather not have children? - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: should a woman totally unwilling to breastfeed rather not have children?
yes, she shouldn't 53 19.85%
no, I don't think so 120 44.94%
don't know,depends on her reasons 94 35.21%
Voters: 267. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#211 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 01:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
huggerwocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5
That would be different if breastfeeding were "best" and formula was second best. But breastfeeding is normal and formula hurts a lot of babies and makes them sick. I see it at work every week.
could you elaborate on that?What do you mean?That the actual formula itself is making them sick?
huggerwocky is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#212 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 01:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
huggerwocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
I might judge a woman who does something that can lead to health problems for her child later in life. I'm being honest... if I see a woman smoking in her house while her toddler and baby play nearby, I might get that "Aaack!" feeling. It's not the "highest choice" to feel that way toward another human being, I'll admit. But I'd still feel it, at least for a fleeting moment, before I confront it for what it is.

I feel the same way about women who choose not to bf. "Aaack!" My sister's exSIL is a prime example. She said that simply growing her kids inside her stomach was enough of a burden to her. That bf'ing was "gross" and formula was just fine.

Huggerwocky, I'm sure you've read all that stats and statistics here and other places that conclusively demonstrate that FF increases the risks of obesity, certain types of cancers, infections, allergies, etc. etc. Just as smoking around your kids does. I have a very hard time understanding WHY a parent would intentionally put their kids at risk, either way. Again, I feel that "Aaack!" feeling. I don't compare it to spankings, time outs, or CIO, just as I wouldn't put smoking around your kids in that same category. We're talking about a biological necessity that has allowed the human race to survive - and thrive - for millions of years.

I agree that having that "Aaack!" feeling toward another human being isn't productive. However, some of us aren't "evolved" to the point yet that it isn't our first basic, gut reaction. I think that's what we're discussing here. We can argue about how the judgment of other people is terrible until we're purple and blue in the face. Fact is, when we see something another person does that can be very harmful to a child, it's the first emotion that pops into our minds.
well said

I don't know, but I personally feel much stronger about other issues, circumsision for example or the mentioned passiv smoking ( of which I still think that it causes much more damage).Maybe ebcause it is much less of a deal to do the thing regarding those and I really don't see any explanation on the way.
huggerwocky is offline  
#213 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
huggerwocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola
I don't know--it does seem like that is coming up to question in this thread. I thought the thread was started by a mom who was frustrated and upset at feeling like there were people who thought she shouldn't have had children in the first place, but now it seems like we are trying to talk about just how bad is not breastfeeding and is it some perfect ideal to strive for.

.
Not quite, no one said this to me, but to someone else.Upsetting in any way.
huggerwocky is offline  
#214 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 01:51 AM
 
Potty Diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I for one am quite proud of the participants of this thread, whether you have agreed or disagreed with my opinion, afterall, we are the only ones (each of us) in the position to make real discisions for our lives. I respect all of you enough to realize we aren't not going to agree on everything

I also agree with Jordansmommy that we should not take this thread or comments made within personally, they do not and should not effect our lives.

I'm sorry some mamas are so frustrated that they feel the need to leave, their contributions will be missed
Potty Diva is offline  
#215 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 02:52 AM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by huggerwocky
could you elaborate on that?What do you mean?That the actual formula itself is making them sick?
Basically yes. There have been contaminants found in formula itself, but the biggest problem is that it does not contain many of the nutrients in breastmilk. A substance which is formulated to be chemically identical to something found in nature is NEVER THE SAME as the natural substance. It is missing its vital force (ie. you could create a human in a lab, put all the parts in the right places, use machines to make all the parts work, but that "person" would still not be alive - same goes for formula).
I'm tired, so I'm trying to figure out how best to say this so that it makes sense - the baby has needs for many key nutrients and minerals as well as beneficial bacteria and other live components found only in breastmilk. Formula is "sterile", unlike breastmilk, which is very much alive. And even if one completely discounted the idea of vital force, there are many complex components of breastmilk which have yet to be discovered.
You've said you understand that breastmilk is better from a nutritional standpoint, but that you don't understand how formula can make babies/people sick. Well of course substandard nutrition makes people sick. Maybe not immediately, but eventually people end up with all kinds of illnesses, be they physical, emotional or mental, acute or chronic, short-term or long-term.


Potty Diva, I think you need some s Just out of curiosity, have you been tested for any nutritional deficiencies? Had your amino acids checked, vitamins, minerals, whatever possible? It might be worthwhile if you haven't done so already.
HerthElde is offline  
#216 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 03:17 AM
 
Kirsten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington state
Posts: 5,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, lots of varying opinions here. I have only so far been able to read the first and last (11th) page so I need to go back when I have more time to get the whole picture here.

But I am a bit surprised that there are 46 women on MDC who believe that a woman who is unwilling (for whatever reason - sexual abuse came to mind as a valid reason) to breastfeed should not have children. That just seems so judgmental and mean. And I really believe everyone should breastfeed! If you want to think less of someone because they won't get educated or make the sacrifice (for some bf is very easy and for some there are problems and pain...) then I suppose that is your right. But to say that they shouldn't have kids at all? Wow.

Who here is perfect? Any of the moms who voted that others should not have kids end up with an epidural or c-section? Any of you ever make a mistake - I seem to recall some moms who circed before they learned better. Any of you fight with your dh in front of your kids? I understand the sacrifices we make for our kids - but we don't know the specifics of anyone else's life.

I am in full support of every mom breastfeeding for at least 12 months. I have pointed many a friend to LLL. I have given nursing books and pillows to friends as shower gifts. I have been sad and disappointed when people I know choose not to breastfeed or quit early (in my opinion). But to say that they never should have had a baby in the first place??? I am just honestly shocked that 46 women here think that way.
Kirsten is offline  
#217 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 04:21 AM
 
Kirsten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington state
Posts: 5,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OK, still not all the way through this thread but I did read the article that LMB linked to - and there is no 20% chance of death! I read the whole thing and at the end it summarizes as this:

"From the above statistics, we see that formula feeding costs American babies more than four additional lives per thousand. The final relative risk for formula feeding comes out to 2 – that’s double the risk of death for American infants who are fed with formula, compared with babies who are fed naturally."

Any higher rates are associated with countries who have high rates of infection due to poor conditions, very ill babies to begin with, etc. Double the risk of death (here in the US - if we are to believe this article) means that instead of four per thousand, formula fed babies would have a mortality rate of eight per thousand. This is nowhere near 20% of all formula fed babies dying - just from being fed that way! And it is irresponsible to even say that IMO. And I breastfed all my kids and suffered quite a bit in the process, especially with the third baby.

When I first started reading the responses that said that women who didn't plan to breastfeed shouldn't have kids, I immediately wondered the ages of the moms here who thought that way - because when I was young, I had some very judgmental opinions too. You live and learn... Life has a way of knocking you off your high moral ground so be careful.
Kirsten is offline  
#218 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 09:28 AM
 
Potty Diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerthElde
Potty Diva, I think you need some s Just out of curiosity, have you been tested for any nutritional deficiencies? Had your amino acids checked, vitamins, minerals, whatever possible? It might be worthwhile if you haven't done so already.
Thank you for the hugs

I have had a complete physical and the above tests were conducted. My blood pressure is normal and I do not have high cholesterol. Unfortunately I am overweight, so if you want to related that to being formula fed that's fine, although I have issues with my childhood and like to stuff my emotions

My sister on the other hand, who was breastfed for a year has HUGE physical problems, include an iron deficiency. Go figure, eh?
Potty Diva is offline  
#219 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 09:33 AM
 
Potty Diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten
When I first started reading the responses that said that women who didn't plan to breastfeed shouldn't have kids, I immediately wondered the ages of the moms here who thought that way - because when I was young, I had some very judgmental opinions too. You live and learn... Life has a way of knocking you off your high moral ground so be careful.

Kirsten,
Your entire post was wonderful, but I particularly enjoyed this part. I am 34 years old and have experience a good bit, all of which I am thankful for, be it good or bad, and I can attest to the "changing of the mind" once you have met someone who doesn't fall into your ideal and see that they are still great and responsible people.
Potty Diva is offline  
#220 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 09:35 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,666
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by huggerwocky
could you elaborate on that?What do you mean?That the actual formula itself is making them sick?
The idea is that we should be thinking of BFing as the norm so other choices are inferior. So it isn’t that BFed babies are sick less often than FF babies it’s that FF babies are sick more often than nomal. The idea of “breast is best” really comes from a perspective where FF is the norm. I’ve read some great articles on this and they make a compelling argument in favor of changing our language.

I’ll try to find a good link…





Here's one:

http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/birth/BFLanguage.html

"Health comparisons use a biological, not cultural, norm, whether the deviation is harmful or helpful. Smokers have higher rates of illness; increasing prenatal folic acid may reduce fetal defects. Because breastfeeding is the biological norm, breastfed babies are not "healthier;" artificially-fed babies are ill more often and more seriously. Breastfed babies do not "smell better;" artificial feeding results in an abnormal and unpleasant odor that reflects problems in an infant's gut. We cannot expect to create a breastfeeding culture if we do not insist on a breastfeeding model of health in both our language and our literature."

...


"We must not let inverted phrasing by the media and by our peers go unchallenged. When we fail to describe the hazards of artificial feeding, we deprive mothers of crucial decision-making information. The mother having difficulty with breastfeeding may not seek help just to achieve a "special bonus;"

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#221 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 09:43 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,666
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
double post..

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#222 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 09:58 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,666
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
I feel the same way. This is it for me too
I’ve spent some time on this thread working out that stat you posted and still can’t find any facts to support what you said about 20% IMR of FF babies. I don’t think you can use the PC or the “otherwise well educated women” card if you’re using false stats.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#223 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 10:46 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,666
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
For those of you comfortable with feeling that this hypothetical woman shouldn’t have a child ~ are you comfortable thinking about this with other issues? Metal or physical problems, age, sexuality, likelihood of passing health or genetic problems, fertility…

I’m not

Please know that *this* is where I’m coming from. It really doesn’t have anything to do with my feelings about the importance of BFing.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#224 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 10:55 AM
 
Itlbokay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten
When I first started reading the responses that said that women who didn't plan to breastfeed shouldn't have kids, I immediately wondered the ages of the moms here who thought that way - because when I was young, I had some very judgmental opinions too. You live and learn... Life has a way of knocking you off your high moral ground so be careful.
Well Said
Itlbokay is offline  
#225 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 10:59 AM
 
loving-my-babies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: From Chile but live in Pgh, PA
Posts: 6,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
I’ve spent some time on this thread working out that stat you posted and still can’t find any facts to support what you said about 20% IMR of FF babies. I don’t think you can use the PC or the “otherwise well educated women” card if you’re using false stats.
um, I'm sorry but I told you where I found the stats. I also decided not to continue looking for anything because it's useless, after reading all the posts I won't waste my time any further! If you wish to find that information, go google it yourself.
loving-my-babies is offline  
#226 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 11:00 AM
 
Itlbokay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Also, IMO, the age of your children is a factor. When my boys were very little I had strong feelings about many things..I still have those strong feelings now, I just don't feel the need to try and force them on others as much as I used to.

Experience has taught me that patience and compassion, which I keep repeating here, can help teach others much better than being judgemental.
Itlbokay is offline  
#227 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 11:07 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,666
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
how can someone choose, knowingly to give her child a 20% chance of dying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
um, I'm sorry but I told you where I found the stats. I also decided not to continue looking for anything because it's useless, after reading all the posts I won't waste my time any further! If you wish to find that information, go google it yourself.
I do think there are some rules here at MDC about substantiating your facts.

The link you provided and the quotes you choose did not substantiate your statement.

I believe what you said if false. I can’t find the information myself if it doesn’t exist.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#228 of 228 Old 02-19-2005, 11:08 AM
 
Itlbokay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
During this thread I feel some have focused mostly on the benefits of BF over FF, don't let that confuse you with trying to decide someone else's reproductive rights.
Itlbokay is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off