I can't express my opinion? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why is that when someone else draws me into a discussion about breastfeeding and I express my true feelings, thoughts and opinions along with the facts that I know about bf and bm, I'm the bad guy? People get mad at me because I challenge their reasons for not bfing. They get mad at me when I say I don't accept the argument that baby needs a bottle so that daddy can bond with him. Everyone I know knows I am pro-bf and have very strong opinions about it. If they don't want to hear what I have to say, they shouldn't bring it up. Am I supposed to just keep my mouth shut and nod my head while they spout bs excuses and misinformation? I was reading another post on here about not saying what you really think about bf (or anything else possibly?) because no one would talk to you anymore if you did. I get sick and tired of ending up in arguments over this stuff and sometimes feel like it's not worth it to say what I think. However, if I (we) just nod our heads and express sympathy rather than challenging the lame and selfish excuses that people give for not bf, things will never change.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#2 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 12:07 AM
 
rado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: W MASS
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm with you!
rado is offline  
#3 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 12:12 AM
 
captain optimism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Good Ship Lollipop
Posts: 7,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Sympathy and honesty can go together. For example:

"Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that your doctor told you that about your milk being insufficient when the baby was a month old. It's not true and I feel like you really missed out. It's really great that you nursed as long as you did, I'm sure that will make at least some difference for your baby. If you ever get pregnant again, I hope you'll call me and we can talk it over."

Etc. etc.

You don't have to shut up or allow misinformation to go by, just don't attack them for making a mistake.

If it's someone older who obviously isn't having children anymore, "Isn't it great that we know so much more about breastfeeding now! I really feel lucky that I got the benefit of all the research on breastmilk when I had little Shmeedle. Now we know that (fill in the blank.) Of course when you had Shmitzchik it was different. Tell me again about what kind of clothes he had?"

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
captain optimism is online now  
#4 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:04 AM
 
Ellien C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: in the middle ages
Posts: 5,582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it would help, too, to take the onus off the individual. Yes, breastfeeding is a choice in the vast majority of cases. Bu so is feeling good about your body.

Now look at the society we live in - look at what a bottle feeding culture we live in - look at all the media images of the same skinny women with perky breasts and no belly fat.

The wonder isn't that people DON'T breastfeed, the wonder is that anyone DOES! Look at how many people on this board have body image issues. Now couple this with misleading health information about weight and breastfeeding. This problem is SO much bigger than what one woman chooses to believe or listen to. The problem is with the culture in which we live.

So many people seem to look at the individual woman and say "It's your fault you didn't bf, the information was out there and you didn't find it." (not necessarily the OP, but perhaps others your friends have encountered). I'm saying look at the environment in which we are living - look at our recent history of BF - of course our rates low.

Third generation WOHM. I work by choice.
Ellien C is offline  
#5 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 05:10 AM
 
kaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hither & Yon
Posts: 2,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain optimism
Sympathy and honesty can go together....
You don't have to shut up or allow misinformation to go by, just don't attack them for making a mistake.
It's all in the delivery. Sometimes it seems like the care extended to the child is not extended to the mama, as well. And there are good reasons why mamas need understanding, as Ellien C pointed out.
kaydee is offline  
#6 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To me that's all just more excuses and tiptoeing around the issue. All of us were assumedly exposed to the same types of messages and we bfed in spite of it all. In many situations, I do think it is the woman's fault that she didn't bf. She had the ulimate choice and she blew it because she was too concerned about how her breasts would look afterward or was too afraid that some stranger might see her nipple or wanted to be able to get her hair done without being hassled by her hungry baby. People who do not think bf is important don't usually have any qualms about criticizing bfing and don't usually try to be nice or sympathetic about it. I don't attack people. I don't go up to people and ask them if they bf and then jump all over them about why they should. But, when someone decides to talk to me about bf because they see that I bf my baby, they should not get upset when they get my opinion. It is perfectly acceptable for someone to get offended that I am NIP but I can't get upset when someone spanks their child in public. I'm feeling really angry right now because I am being attacked from all sides for telling the truth. I don't say to people's faces, "Oh, that's such bs. You are full of it." I have been trying to be as tactful and nonjudgemental as possible but I am now sick of it. I hope you all understand that I am on a serious rant here and am not meaning to jump on anyone that responds to me. I just want to be able to express how I truly feel for once without caring what anyone else thinks or how it makes them feel. Thanks so much for letting me do this.

I just thought of something to add. I think maybe you are missing my point. My point was that I am sick of being attacked for expressing my opinion about bf.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#7 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 03:19 PM
 
mom2threenurslings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the midst of chaos in CT
Posts: 2,719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
First of all to you!

It's difficult when we get attacked for expressing our views on breastfeeding, especially when our views are based in fact. It's frustrating that it's "acceptable" for women to defend their choice NOT to breastfeed, but not for breastfeeding women to express the fact that breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and anything else is sub-standard. The mainstream thinking seems to be that breastfeeding is "best", but formula feeding is "normal" or "standard"....that breastfeeding has pluses that formula feeding doesn't have, but that formula is that standard and anything more a bonus (instead of breastmilk being the standard and anything else being lacking!).

I haven't gotten into many conversations about breastfeeding/formula feeding with formula feeding moms, but the times I have, I've found that we don't get anywhere when we're both being defensive. As in situations with health professionals and others who question my breastfeeding relationships with my children (nursing through pregnancy, tandem nursing, tandem nursing through pregnancy, triandem nursing), I let people know that my opinions are based on facts and studies and ask what their opinions are based on. I let people know that I don't expect them to agree with what I say, just as they shouldn't expect me to agree with what they say. During one conversation, I asked if the woman actually had any interest in what I had to say or if she started the conversation in order to start an arguement with me. :

Mama to A (12), Z (11), H (9), C (5), A (3) and 4 angels. 

mom2threenurslings is offline  
#8 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 03:38 PM
 
cmb123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
However, if I (we) just nod our heads and express sympathy rather than challenging the lame and selfish excuses that people give for not bf, things will never change.
I don't think change results from making other people feel bad. I highly doublt that making someone feel inadequate for their decisions, and telling them that they have "lame excuses" will make them decide to breastfeed next time, nor will they view those of us who do as anything but a bunch of radicals.
I think change comes by leading by example. Sharing your story, your ideas about thier situation that have worked for you, nursing in public from infancy and beyond and other gentler ways of getting your point across.
People who say nasty things to you are nothing but ignorant. Stooping to their level will not further your cause IMO.
cmb123 is offline  
#9 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 03:45 PM
 
captain optimism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Good Ship Lollipop
Posts: 7,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
People who do not think bf is important don't usually have any qualms about criticizing bfing and don't usually try to be nice or sympathetic about it.
I have only encountered one such person, at my old workplace, and I totally let her have it. I had so much more information and I can talk so much faster than most people--and louder, and use more polysyllabic words--that I completely destroyed her arguments in a minute. She was being insanely aggressive, though, saying things like "Who do you think you are, that you think you know more than all the parents who came before you, it doesn't make that much difference." It was an absurd argument and she lost. One memorable line of mine, "Well, the Surgeon General of the United States disagrees with you, the American Academy of Pediatrics disagrees with you and the World Health Organization disagrees with you."

:LOL

Then later I found out why she was saying what she was saying. her sister had gone through this horrible experience--she had a c-section and her older daughter leaped onto her abdomen, rupturing her stitches. Nursing was disrupted and she didn't get good support or information. By insisting on the importance of breastfeeding, she felt I was attacking her sister. I really alienated her and freaked out my coworkers, mainly because they weren't used to that style of argument.

I can be scary.

Now, at the time I was pumping about three times a day at work, I was pumping constantly, I was drinking tea and taking vitamins, I was doing everything possible to keep nursing going. So what did she think I was going to say, that it didn't matter? Obviously I think it matters.

Anyway if I encountered that again I might be more ready to try to figure out where the person was coming from. Or I might not. I might ask, "Are you trying to annoy me with this line of questioning, since you see that I am in fact, committed to doing what is best for my child?" RAWR!

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
captain optimism is online now  
#10 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb123
I highly doublt that making someone feel inadequate for their decisions, and telling them that they have "lame excuses" will make them decide to breastfeed next time,
ITA and I don't say things like that to people even if I'm thinking it.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#11 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 03:51 PM
 
kaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hither & Yon
Posts: 2,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb123
I don't think change results from making other people feel bad. I highly doublt that making someone feel inadequate for their decisions, and telling them that they have "lame excuses" will make them decide to breastfeed next time, nor will they view those of us who do as anything but a bunch of radicals.
I think change comes by leading by example. Sharing your story, your ideas about thier situation that have worked for you, nursing in public from infancy and beyond and other gentler ways of getting your point across.
People who say nasty things to you are nothing but ignorant. Stooping to their level will not further your cause IMO.


MarineWife--Of course you can say whatever you like about FF vs BF, in whatever way you choose. But people are also free to react to what and how you say things. If you say things in an accusatory way, I don't think you should be surprised to receive a negative reaction.
kaydee is offline  
#12 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:08 PM
 
cmb123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
ITA and I don't say things like that to people even if I'm thinking it.
Oh, now thinking it...that's a whole other story...if they only knew what was going on inside my head... :
cmb123 is offline  
#13 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:10 PM
 
paquerette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Poconos
Posts: 6,798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just because someone feels bad when you say XYZ, that doesn't necessarily mean that you made them feel bad, though. Some people just feel guilty and are going to feel bad no matter what you say if it disagrees with them in any way. It doesn't always mean that the disagreeing person was being attacking or militant or anything like that.
paquerette is offline  
#14 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay, I don't think I ever said I say anything in an accusatory way. I do NOT attack people for not bfing and I do NOT try to make them feel bad or guilty or whatever. They feel that way all their own (maybe because deep down they know they've made the wrong choice?). I just say what I know and what I think and only when someone else brings it up.

Am I being accusatory in this conversation?

Friend: We give our baby a bottle so that his daddy and grandparents can bond with him. I don't buy all that crap about nipple confusion. (She nurses and daddy periodically gives baby bottles of ebm.)

Me: I don't agree that daddy needs to give baby a bottle for them to bond. There are some things that only women were meant to do, like be pregnant, give birth and feed a baby.

Friend: How can you say that it's not important for daddy to bond with baby?

Me: I didn't say it wasn't important for daddy and baby to bond. I said that daddy doesn't need to feed baby in order to bond with him. Daddy can do so many other things with baby. (Then I listed the things daddy could do with baby.)

Friend: I guess that's why God made chocolate and vanilla, so people could have different opinions.

Me: It's not an opinion. It's a biological fact. Women lactate. Men do not.

That's not the entire conversation word for word but that's the main gist. What I don't get is why my friend took my comment about daddy not needing to feed baby as meaning that daddy didn't need to bond with baby. She started out the conversation by saying that the idea of nipple confusion was crap and then got defensive when I disagreed with her. Should I have just not said anything?

Ugh! I keep forgetting to add that I'm being very harsh in my posts on here because I really need to vent and get out my anger over this. I do not talk like that to people.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#15 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:18 PM
 
RubyV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Western NY (I miss NYC)
Posts: 1,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I tend to be confrontational by nature, but this is one of those I have strggled with. I find myself doing the educate but don't alienate dance all the time. I'm often accused of "being a martyr" because I pumped exclusively for weeks, and still pump when we are separated. It makes educating people hard.

I have to admit, MW, I do find the above convo accusitory ( and I"ve had the same exact convo myself. where is that hiding smilie).
RubyV is offline  
#16 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:22 PM
 
the_lissa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 13,248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't think you were accusatory. I don't think you can make people feel guilty. If you are truly comfortable in your decision, how can you feel guilty?

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

the_lissa is offline  
#17 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:29 PM
 
Rainbow Brite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Snuggled with dd
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
babe in arms

i think anger is often a reaction to guilt. if someone says breast is the optimal feeding- some ppl will get angry. I think it's b/c they feel guilty for not bf. If someone aid ff was best- I wouldn't get angry. Sure I'd think they are nuts and uneducated : but I won't get angry b/c it's just their opinion and doesn't affect me. I understand how u feel completely. I just had a whole slew of ppl go nuts on me on another board b/c I said an arficial nipple was second to the breast- not even anything about formula , I was just supporting a mom who's dd wouldn't take a bottle. I was super pissed at the reaction, but figure some ppl r just rude and defensive b/c they aren't comfortable with themselves or their choices.
Tons of to u.
Rainbow Brite is offline  
#18 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:33 PM
 
famousmockngbrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: home
Posts: 6,849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Was it formula in the bottle, or expressed breast milk? If it was milk, then who cares if her DH gives the baby a bottle once in a while?

I understand this is a rant. But I really think women who choose to breastfeed deserve our support. If someone is going on about how formula is just as good as breastmilk, then yeah she needs to be educated. But sometimes just because you think something is true doesn't mean it is.
famousmockngbrd is offline  
#19 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:37 PM
 
the_lissa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 13,248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
Was it formula in the bottle, or expressed breast milk? If it was milk, then who cares if her DH gives the baby a bottle once in a while?

I understand this is a rant. But I really think women who choose to breastfeed deserve our support. If someone is going on about how formula is just as good as breastmilk, then yeah she needs to be educated. But sometimes just because you think something is true doesn't mean it is.
I don't have a problem with bottles of ebm.

I do have a problem with someone saying that daddy or grandparents or anyone has to give the baby a bottle so they can bond. In my experience, that has been the single most undermining sentiment to breastfeeding women.

That is a problem.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

the_lissa is offline  
#20 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:39 PM
 
Kari_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I find it enough, for me, to know that I made my points rather than walk away feeling that I have 'won'. Few people will admit they are wrong in the middle of an 'discussion' or 'arguement'. Even when they are so transparently wrong.

If I have given accurate information, if witnesses have been exposed to both sides, if there is a chance that the person I with whom I am engaged will reconsider their position EVER, then that is a win for me.

I still want to slap them silly though. Not the ones who genuinely care about their babies and didn't have good support, the other ones.
Kari_mom is offline  
#21 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:44 PM
 
tuffykenwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Northern Ontario
Posts: 1,918
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am going to add what I would say in this situation because *I think* it might be a bit less likely to cause a confrontation. At least it seems to work for me where I live. There are always people who are begging for a fight though...with them nothing you say (other than agreeing with them) will change that.

Quote:
Friend: We give our baby a bottle so that his daddy and grandparents can bond with him. I don't buy all that crap about nipple confusion. (She nurses and daddy periodically gives baby bottles of ebm.)
Quote:
Me: I don't agree that daddy needs to give baby a bottle for them to bond. There are some things that only women were meant to do, like be pregnant, give birth and feed a baby.
I agree that bonding between baby and daddy is very important. We found that DH could bond with baby in other ways. For example DH started talking charge of baths so that he could have that one on one time that is so important.

This will usually deflate them. It validates their point (bonding is important) but it shows that there are other ways that daddy can bond without interfering with the breastfeeding relationship.

Quote:
Me: It's not an opinion. It's a biological fact. Women lactate. Men do not.
IMO this is a bit inflammatory. You can state that the feeding point is too important to "give in on" in other ways. Perhaps pointing out the biological feedback loop that takes place when babies are nursing straight from the breast. For example:

Because nursing straight from the breast gives your body an opportunity to "custom build" the antibodies required by your baby based on what they have been exposed to both DH and I feel that it is important that baby be nursed at the breast unless there is a true emergency.

This has often gotten people to ask more about how that feedback loop works. It becomes an opportunity to educate rather than a debate.

It can be a very hard road to travel sometimes between being firm about your feelings and telling the truth, while still trying to keep the discussion informative rather than confrontational. Sometimes I fail miserably at it myself but I always try to get a few truths out there and perhaps heard by keeping the conversation pleasant (while not sitting there and allowing untruths to go by unchallenged.

Steph

Steph~~momma to Rhys 2002, Niamh 2004, Isla 2007 and Deirdre 2009
tuffykenwell is offline  
#22 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 04:56 PM
 
cmb123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
Am I being accusatory in this conversation?

.
If that is what's working for her family, why fight her about it?
It couldn't hurt to tell her what you do instead, but who are you to say that her hubby shouldn't give the baby a bottle? Maybe your friend actually LIKES getting that occasional break, and hey, if that's what keeps her bf'ing, so be it!( And truth be told, if her baby is an established nurser, nipple confusion truly is not a concern).
While I agree with your points, I guess for me I want to encourage breastfeeding on any level I can. Why try to alienate another bfing Mom because she doesn't do it exactly the way you do? Do you honestly feel that her baby is in some way being damaged by taking a bottle of bm from her Daddy? What if she was a working Mom and had to pump bottle all of the time, then what?
cmb123 is offline  
#23 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 07:04 PM
 
velcromom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: N. Ca Sierra Nevada
Posts: 5,022
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I totally know where you are coming from. I don't discuss bf with anyone in an accusatory tone, tell them their excuses are lame or that they didn't care enough to try harder. I don't think I'll "win" any argument that involves bf because it is not a topic that follows logic, it is highly emotional. BUT I do come home and vent and say all those things I'm thinking!!

And then dh tells me to be gentle, don't alienate moms, etc. because he thinks if I'm feeling that strongly about it I must be out there shouting down ff moms all the time!LOL!

Mostly though, honestly, I am at a point where I avoid talking about it with moms whose stories I don't know. I don't think that I'm going to change anyone's minds with facts, when the reasons they are using to defend ff as a choice are not logical. I don't think those who have already made up their minds that formula is "like breastmilk" and bf moms are "nazis" are going to be educated out of their stance by a conversation with me. If someone is going to fight the facts tooth and nail, they are not, in my book, a good candidate for becoming a bf advocate!!

So yeah, I agree there are times when it is darn frustrating and it feels like you just can't say anything without opening up a whole can of worms.

Sometimes I just don't feel like dealing with someone else's worms, so I don't say anything. And that is a feeling that really sucks.
velcromom is offline  
#24 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 07:18 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,796
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
I usually go into the conversation with the ultimate goal to help support the child and parents. I’m shocked at the things that sometimes get through and the things that don’t. I think some if it comes down to reading people.

Another thing to consider is people like me ~ who for the life of them can’t seem to take advice or criticism *in the moment it’s being given*. I can’t but I’m listening and I almost always process it and apply it (appropriately to my values and needs) afterwards.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#25 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was not trying to tell her what she should or should not do. I did not say directly to her, "You shouldn't give your baby a bottle just so that daddy can bond." I didn't say that she was wrong or it was wrong. I said I disagree with that thinking. I was not trying to be judgemental or unsupportive of what she was doing. I was just giving my opinion on the subject in general. I don't see these as the same thing. Maybe I'm wrong about that or missing something here. This is where I think the other person's feelings come in to play. If they are comfortable with their choices, then they have no reason to feel guilty or react in anger to what I've said. I am all for giving baby ebm when a bottle is necessary but I do not support it just so that daddy can bond with baby. EBM is absolutely better for baby that formula. However, it is not as good as fresh bm. So, if you have fresh bm available, I can't think of any good reason to give baby a bottle of ebm. KWIM? My response about women lactating and men not being a biological fact and not an opinion was made after she accused me of saying daddy bonding with baby was not important and equated breastfeeding or bottlefeeding to choosing between chocolate or vanilla. I can see how I could've said it better, though, Steph. Thanks for those examples.

Although I was posting more in general about how I am treated as the bad guy for expressing my opinions about breastfeeding vs. bottle feeding, I have been thinking more about this particular conversation. I only brought it up as an example because it is the most recent one I had. I think the thing that bothers me so much about the line that men need to be able to give baby a bottle so that they can bond with babies is that, as someone else touched on, it undermines the mother/baby nursing relationship. I'm going to be a little melodramatic here but it really irks me that men have control of just about everything and having and nursing babies is the one thing that women have that men can't. Then someone comes along and says women should sacrifice this very special and unique relationshiop with their babies so that men can experience it. I think this feeds right into the POV that nursing will make babies too dependent on mommy, which is dangerous to breastfeeding. It's these subtle attacks on the nursing relationship between mother and baby that can be even more dangerous than the blatant, in your face breastfeeding is dirty stuff. I think we need to start challenging these fallacies.

I have a 13yo ds who really doesn't do much of anything for my baby. He occasionally picks him up and plays with him for maybe 5 minutes at a time. He has changed his diaper but only a handful of times. He has never fed the baby. As a newborn and even when he was around 9 or 10 months, my baby didn't want to be with my older ds rather than me. If we were all sitting on the couch, the baby wanted to be in my lap or in my arms and would fuss if my ds took him. However, now at 13 months the baby sometimes prefers to be with my older ds rather than. There have been many times when I've been holding the baby and he reaches out to my older ds and fusses until he takes him. Somehow they have been able to bond in spite of my older ds not doing much of anything for my baby, much less feeding him.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#26 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 09:51 PM
 
BlueStateMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 3,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
MarineWife...I get what you're saying, It's frustrating to have to tiptoe around FF and sugar-coat everything for fear of offending when I have received PLENTY of unsolicited comments about BFing, none of which were especially sensitive. Example: "He's walking and talking! Isn't it time you weaned him? He's way to old to breastfeed!!"

It's one of those weird one way street situations in our society. It would be unthinkable to say something equally rude back, because then you'd be one of those "breastfeeding nazis" Whatever...

I get where you're coming from on this one!!

Mama to DS (8) and DD (7) Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

 

BlueStateMama is offline  
#27 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 10:14 PM
 
Potty Diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
Why is that when someone else draws me into a discussion about breastfeeding and I express my true feelings, thoughts and opinions along with the facts that I know about bf and bm, I'm the bad guy? People get mad at me because I challenge their reasons for not bfing. They get mad at me when I say I don't accept the argument that baby needs a bottle so that daddy can bond with him.
I understand how frustrating this can be. I have been in the position of having my choices questioned and have been very defensive about them. MY reasoning is that I was not as solid in my choices as I had thought. Perhaps I lacked the necessary education to argue my decisoins eloquently enough, became flustered, and attacked those who questioned my decision.

Thankfully I have recently come to a point in time that I don't feel the urge, need, desire to become defensive of my choices. Perhaps others will come to this place as well. In the mean time I suppose we just need to keep the communication limes open, ask for clarification, and agree to disagree.

I also think it's important to think about how are words affect others and if they are words we would like to hear. I often fail at being compassionate to others, especially when it is something I am strongly against because *I* have the most current and correct information on the topic and don't quite understand how my opposers could not.

It is indeed frustrating. I do feel for you
Potty Diva is offline  
#28 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 10:55 PM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 3,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
Me: It's not an opinion. It's a biological fact. Women lactate. Men do not.
MarineWife, I totally get what you're trying to say and agree with you completely.
In regards to the above quote, if this type of thing is brought up, I usually point out that if dad really wants to feed the baby, HE can lactate (as opposed to feeding the baby a bottle). http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/milkmen.htm
HerthElde is offline  
#29 of 45 Old 02-17-2005, 11:15 PM
 
famousmockngbrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: home
Posts: 6,849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've been thinking about this conversation too, and I agree that the whole "Daddy needs to feed the baby so they can bond" argument is pretty silly. I can see your POV about how it's little things like this that undermine a breastfeeding relationship. I guess when I posted I was feeling like, "She's breastfeeding her child, why bug her about this?" But now that I have thought about it I understand where you are coming from a little more.
famousmockngbrd is offline  
#30 of 45 Old 02-18-2005, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't really even have a problem with someone who says they give baby a bottle because daddy wants to feed baby just don't say it is needed.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off