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Old 06-29-2006, 01:58 AM
 
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Nothing to say, really. So sorry.
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
There is absolutely NO WAY to promote breastfeeding without people getting offended by it. It's impossible. No matter what you say or do to promote breastfeeding, there will be people who will be offended by it. They will find a way to construe your words or actions as "offensive."
Maybe, but there is a big difference between accidentally offending that 1 person in 1,000 who's freakishly touchy, and offending a substantial portion of your audience by being careless about what you say. I think it's important to avoid the latter.

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Whoa. If people get offended by lactivism and in turn develop negative feelings toward *lactivists," that's one thing. But if people get offended by lactivism and misdirect their negativity toward *breastfeeding,* that is something else entirely and is absolutely not the fault of the lactivist.
I don't get this. Lactivism=breastfeeding activism; that makes it closely related to breastfeeding. If people see lactivists as rude and unreasonable, that's going to make them discount their message (just as it would in any other kind of activism).
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pookel
I don't get this. Lactivism=breastfeeding activism; that makes it closely related to breastfeeding. If people see lactivists as rude and unreasonable, that's going to make them discount their message (just as it would in any other kind of activism).
So, if I got all in your face about how you have to take folic acid while you're pregnant, you'd just throw your hands up at the whole concept and refuse to so much as eat a leaf of lettuce your whole pregnancy because I'm a perceived nutjob so therefore I must be wrong? Even though there are reams of scientific evidence that folic acid is very important during pregnancy? You'd deliberately and willfully do that to your child because I said mean things to you? I think I would consider that immature and irresponsible.
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aileen
pookel - please know i mean this with total respect.
my friend got me one of those bragging tee-shirts when i hit three years with my nursling. i only wear it every once in a while because i'm so nervous about offending someone. all it says is "still breastfeeding" in a nice lowercase font, but i feel like sometimes people get this, "what do you want a medal?" looks on their faces when they read it.
That sucks. I think shirts like yours are fine. I would never think to be offended by something like that, because it's just about you, it's not about me.

What bothers me are the slogans that are divisive or judgmental, the ones that insult people who use formula or brag about the superiority of moms who breastfeed. I get that some people don't think the "superpower" one falls into those categories, I really do. That's OK, it's just a different interpretation. But I think it's important for lactivists to recognize the potential for offense in their slogans. If you go to cafepress and look for "baby formula", you will see a lot of stuff that is *far* more extreme. Like the one that says, "No toxic stuff for me - just say no to formula," or "formula is for pussies" (!).
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:56 AM
 
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I guess the whole point is, you view it as "the superiority of the moms who breastfeed" while I, and most lactivists, view it as "the superiority of breastfeeding".

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276
I guess the whole point is, you view it as "the superiority of the moms who breastfeed" while I, and most lactivists, view it as "the superiority of breastfeeding".
Well, my main point was that I'm not the only one who sees it as a superior attitude, and that it's that kind of image that turns off a lot of mainstream moms who have the potential to be convinced to breastfeed. I'd like to think that lactivists care more about getting more women to breastfeed than about feeling good about themselves.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by paquerette
So, if I got all in your face about how you have to take folic acid while you're pregnant, you'd just throw your hands up at the whole concept and refuse to so much as eat a leaf of lettuce your whole pregnancy because I'm a perceived nutjob so therefore I must be wrong? Even though there are reams of scientific evidence that folic acid is very important during pregnancy? You'd deliberately and willfully do that to your child because I said mean things to you? I think I would consider that immature and irresponsible.
This is so I don't even know how to respond to it. Maybe if I were more awake I would have a clue what you were trying to say, but I don't. Sorry.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by minkajane
I even saw one that almost made me cry - it had a picture of a little boy and said "My mom fed me formula, cut off half my penis, and let me cry myself to sleep, but I love her anyway!"
Hey, this is really totally OT, but ... That sig is pretty distinctive and I remember it. I know that I was on that board, but I don't remember what board it was! I was staying away from parenting boards for a while and I lost most of my links. I know we're not supposed to talk about other boards here, but could someone just PM me and remind me what board that was? This is really not important and I'm not even sure I want to go there anymore ... it's just driving me nuts that I can't remember. Thanks.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pookel
Maybe, but there is a big difference between accidentally offending that 1 person in 1,000 who's freakishly touchy, and offending a substantial portion of your audience by being careless about what you say.
Yes, there certainly is, isn't there. Yes, those are definitely two very different things.

Ahem.

Ok, I'll just say that I definitely DON'T think that the breastfeeding blinkie is the LATTER.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
I don't get this. Lactivism=breastfeeding activism; that makes it closely related to breastfeeding. If people see lactivists as rude and unreasonable, that's going to make them discount their message (just as it would in any other kind of activism).
Yes, lactivism is breastfeeding activism. But there is a HUGE difference between the *activism* and *breastfeeding itself.* If someone was annoying you about how much they love dolphins, would you decide that the person is annoying? Or would you decide that *dolphins are bad*??

If you just want to say that if person A is offended by person B then person A is less likely to be in the mood to listen to person B's arguments, that's fine. But saying that person B is responsible for person A deciding that *breastfeeding itself* is negative, simply because person A was offended by person B's choice of lactivism words, is something completely different!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
"No toxic stuff for me - just say no to formula,"
Actually, one of the problems with formula *is* the presence of toxins. I definitely think that people should say no to formula when breastmilk is an option.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 06-29-2006, 05:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer
Ok, I'll just say that I definitely DON'T think that the breastfeeding blinkie is the LATTER.
Look, if it were just me being ridiculously sensitive, why would other people be coming up with sigs like that "I make formula" one? I have know a lot of people, online and IRL, who have been hurt, offended, or turned off by lactivist messages like that one. There is a reason for the comeback sigs like the one that started this thread.

Quote:
If you just want to say that if person A is offended by person B then person A is less likely to be in the mood to listen to person B's arguments, that's fine.
That was pretty much my point ...

Quote:
But saying that person B is responsible for person A deciding that *breastfeeding itself* is negative, simply because person A was offended by person B's choice of lactivism words, is something completely different!
Again, I'm too tired to really parse your sentence here enough to explain why I disagree with you. I'm just trying to say that when lactivists p*ss people off, those people are less likely to be convinced by lactivists' arguments - and they're less likely to be willing to go to places like LLL for help with breastfeeding, because they've gotten the idea that those "militant breastfeeders" are just going to berate them for not trying hard enough or for doing it all wrong. I think that it's important for lactivists to present an image of "let us help you breastfeed" - not "you suck if you don't breastfeed."
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:04 AM
 
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Ouch, who's thought was that? How about "I produce mama's milk . . . " :
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Old 06-29-2006, 06:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
why would other people be coming up with sigs like that "I make formula" one?
There are people who are pro-formula, who insist that breastmilk isn't any better, who don't think there's anything special about breastfeeding, who see no honor in it, and I totally disagree with them, and those are the people who come up with retorts like "I make formula what's your superpower."

Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
There is a reason for the comeback sigs like the one that started this thread.
Yes there is, and it isn't that lactivists are hurtful or offensive. It's that formula feeders are threatened by the very fact that we breastfeed, because deep down they know breastfeeding is better, and they are defensive.


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Originally Posted by pookel
That was pretty much my point ...
But that's not what you SAID.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
I'm just trying to say that when lactivists p*ss people off, those people are less likely to be convinced by lactivists' arguments
There's a big difference between saying that and saying that they will actually decide to believe the *opposite.*

Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
I think that it's important for lactivists to present an image of "let us help you breastfeed" - not "you suck if you don't breastfeed."
Lactivists do NOT send the message "you suck if you don't breastfeed." If you or others choose to interpret "I make milk what's your superpower" or other statements as "you suck if you don't breastfeed," then that is NOT the lactivists' fault.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 06-29-2006, 06:06 AM
 
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Pookel, it looks to me like you need to let go of some guilt and defensiveness. You did the best you could. It didn't work out. That's okay.

Breastfeeding shirts or paraphernalia, no matter how they are worded, are not out to get you. Or other moms who use formula, for whatever reason. Relax.

This may get me some third-degree posting burns, but I honestly don't give a hoot what other parents feed their kids, as long as they mind their business about what I feed mine, and I don't think it my business or calling to pound on doors or pass out flyers in front of grocery stores (though I do have a 'My Kid Sucks' t-shirt...just too funny to pass up!). I just feed my kid, sometimes in full view of the public. Some days I'd like to be more outSPOKEN about this, but as someone who feels profoundly uncomfortable when preached to about anything, I can't un-feel my empathy for those I may make uncomfortable by preaching. I suppose this hearkens back to my days as an unwilling unbelieving forcibly 'christian' child. I say feed our kids in public and leave it at that. Don't defend, and don't explain. Help if asked, but only then. That's it. For me.

That said, I think the following about this discussion:

1. Breasts are normal and natural and good and multi-functional. They are sexual and nurturing and decorative and whatever else we come up with. They're FUN. Yay breasts! Everybody say it with me! YAY BOOBIES! HOORAY MAMMARIES! HURRAH NIPPLES AND MILK DUCTS AND AREOLA! They are wonderful! WHEE!
2. People who decide not to breastfeed based upon a negative experience with someone who promoted breastfeeding in a way that bothered them are blaming the messenger, and likely didn't have much of a desire to breastfeed in the first place. Probably.
3. No one has a right not to be offended. Sh*t happens. The world doesn't revolve around us, not everything is about us, and we are ultimately responsible for our own feelings and actions.

Done now. Everybody drink some tea and hug your kids. It's okay to disagree sometimes, and it's even okay to get all riled up and grrrrrr with each other. We're all human, and tired, hungry, sick, fed-up (sometimes) mamas to boot! Breathe girls!
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BrklynMama
Also tired of hearing that the BF info and support is out there for those who choose to seek it with the implication that if you didn't get that info and support when you needed it, it's your fault. Wow, does that reveal a lot of class privilege. People who think that really don't have any idea how others live.
Really? When I had my dd, my ex dead dh made $1000 a month (when he worked; most of the time he was too drunk), I was young, I had no vehicle, I had no money (how many people here had to try a planned uc in the '80s no less, because their worthless & incidentally, violently abusive dh wouldn't get the insurance paperwork together at work?), & zero support from family or friends. And no internet.

Now this is frosting my chaps, the assumption that because I busted my arse to find a used copy of 'The Womanly Art' (and old Mothering mags ) & kept going while my nipples were falling off for 3 months, I had 'class privilege'. Yeah, LCs were beating down my door. But then, I don't know how the 'struggling folks' live. Thanks.

I had the responsibility of finding that information myself, crappy circumstances or not, & I stepped up to the plate. If people with cars, google, SOME money, & decent, pleasant lives can't be bothered... Please.

I am not a quitter. (And if I'm proud of that, I should be shamed for wanting to wear a t-shirt saying so.) Bah.
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:51 AM
 
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ps I'm breathing, cj

pps I am in no way referring to YOU, Pookel, as a quitter; I think 9 months (esp with difficulties) rocks. (I am speaking to the post I'm quoting.) It sounds as though you feel that way, though.
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:56 AM
 
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Tigertail--Thank you. And you rock, BTW.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cjuniverse
Pookel, it looks to me like you need to let go of some guilt and defensiveness. You did the best you could. It didn't work out. That's okay.

Breastfeeding shirts or paraphernalia, no matter how they are worded, are not out to get you. Or other moms who use formula, for whatever reason. Relax.

This may get me some third-degree posting burns, but I honestly don't give a hoot what other parents feed their kids, as long as they mind their business about what I feed mine, and I don't think it my business or calling to pound on doors or pass out flyers in front of grocery stores (though I do have a 'My Kid Sucks' t-shirt...just too funny to pass up!). I just feed my kid, sometimes in full view of the public. Some days I'd like to be more outSPOKEN about this, but as someone who feels profoundly uncomfortable when preached to about anything, I can't un-feel my empathy for those I may make uncomfortable by preaching. I suppose this hearkens back to my days as an unwilling unbelieving forcibly 'christian' child. I say feed our kids in public and leave it at that. Don't defend, and don't explain. Help if asked, but only then. That's it. For me.

That said, I think the following about this discussion:

1. Breasts are normal and natural and good and multi-functional. They are sexual and nurturing and decorative and whatever else we come up with. They're FUN. Yay breasts! Everybody say it with me! YAY BOOBIES! HOORAY MAMMARIES! HURRAH NIPPLES AND MILK DUCTS AND AREOLA! They are wonderful! WHEE!
2. People who decide not to breastfeed based upon a negative experience with someone who promoted breastfeeding in a way that bothered them are blaming the messenger, and likely didn't have much of a desire to breastfeed in the first place. Probably.
3. No one has a right not to be offended. Sh*t happens. The world doesn't revolve around us, not everything is about us, and we are ultimately responsible for our own feelings and actions.

Done now. Everybody drink some tea and hug your kids. It's okay to disagree sometimes, and it's even okay to get all riled up and grrrrrr with each other. We're all human, and tired, hungry, sick, fed-up (sometimes) mamas to boot! Breathe girls!
Well said!!!

YAY for boobies! They REALLY ARE fun!

Wifey to Hubby, Mama to Boy (2004) and Girl (2009). 
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Old 06-29-2006, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TigerTail
Really? When I had my dd, my ex dead dh made $1000 a month (when he worked; most of the time he was too drunk), I was young, I had no vehicle, I had no money (how many people here had to try a planned uc in the '80s no less, because their worthless & incidentally, violently abusive dh wouldn't get the insurance paperwork together at work?), & zero support from family or friends. And no internet.

Now this is frosting my chaps, the assumption that because I busted my arse to find a used copy of 'The Womanly Art' (and old Mothering mags ) & kept going while my nipples were falling off for 3 months, I had 'class privilege'. Yeah, LCs were beating down my door. But then, I don't know how the 'struggling folks' live. Thanks.

I had the responsibility of finding that information myself, crappy circumstances or not, & I stepped up to the plate. If people with cars, google, SOME money, & decent, pleasant lives can't be bothered... Please.

I am not a quitter. (And if I'm proud of that, I should be shamed for wanting to wear a t-shirt saying so.) Bah.
I did NOT say that every single person who BFs has class privilege. My point is that money and education and all that class-related stuff helps in a BIG way. So you're low income and you BF. Great! I hope you're not suggesting that because of your success, poverty should present no barriers to others. It is a FACT that breastfeeding rates are much lower among low income people and people of color. Do you think there might POSSIBLY be societal reasons for that - or is it just that most poor women and women of color are lazy quitters who just didn't work as hard as heroic you?

My post was NOT about middle class people who CHOOSE to formula feed. They are making a BAD choice and I do NOT support them or try to make them feel better. My post is in response to someone who said (paraphrasing) that there's no excuse for lack of breastfeeding info unless you live 100 miles from the nearest library or internet connection.

I did NOT say you should be shamed for wanting to wear a T-shirt expressing BF pride. HUH?????
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Old 06-29-2006, 01:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by minkajane
I've seen similar blinkies like "Happy, Healthy, 100% Formula-Fed Baby" or "Proud Bottle-Feeding Mom." I even saw one that almost made me cry - it had a picture of a little boy and said "My mom fed me formula, cut off half my penis, and let me cry myself to sleep, but I love her anyway!" This was a REAL signature! This woman was PROUD of all these choices!
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pookel
I wish someone would make one that said "I'm a mom, what's your superpower?" Because THAT is the important thing as far as I'm concerned. And every time I see one of those "superpower" sigs, I'm thinking, "I get up two or three times a night to snuggle and bottle-nurse my baby, I hug him, kiss him, play with him, teach him games, sing songs to him, and love him more than anything else in the world
I just wanted to say that that is very well said. My first was also brestmilk and formula fed, and I share your sentments exactly!
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TigerTail
Really? When I had my dd, my ex dead dh made $1000 a month (when he worked; most of the time he was too drunk), I was young, I had no vehicle, I had no money (how many people here had to try a planned uc in the '80s no less, because their worthless & incidentally, violently abusive dh wouldn't get the insurance paperwork together at work?), & zero support from family or friends. And no internet.

Now this is frosting my chaps, the assumption that because I busted my arse to find a used copy of 'The Womanly Art' (and old Mothering mags ) & kept going while my nipples were falling off for 3 months, I had 'class privilege'. Yeah, LCs were beating down my door. But then, I don't know how the 'struggling folks' live. Thanks.

I had the responsibility of finding that information myself, crappy circumstances or not, & I stepped up to the plate. If people with cars, google, SOME money, & decent, pleasant lives can't be bothered... Please.

I am not a quitter. (And if I'm proud of that, I should be shamed for wanting to wear a t-shirt saying so.) Bah.
I SO agree with this. In my area BF'ing support is pathetical lacking. You really need to educate yourself to know where to go to get help. We are trying to fix that- but it is a long, hard and very uphill battle.
I do truly believe that most woman fail at BF"ing because of lack of information and support. That said-- it is MY responsibility as a prego Mom to educate myself on the issues. Seek out support and help. Know what issues you could face and where to turn if they do pop up. And all this info can be obtained free- through LLL, libraries, local BF Coalitions, peer support groups. For most, the info and support IS there- if you seek it out. So why don't woman seek it out??? How many of us would choose to be prego and labour and deliver a child without having some idea of what it all entails??
IMO if you educate yourself and seek support from others and are not in the small percentage of people who cannot BF-- then there is no reason you shouldn't have a successful BF relationship.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BrklynMama
So you're low income and you BF.
It was the '80s, I have debt issues, but I would no longer be considered 'low income'. Just to be clear. (Even if I still couldn't afford a LC. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrklynMama
Do you think there might POSSIBLY be societal reasons for that - or is it just that most poor women and women of color are lazy quitters who just didn't work as hard as heroic you?
Now see, what I did wasn't heroic. It was normal. Other people can do normal stuff without it being an ordeal that requires a team of paid interventionists, as well. Painting successful bfing as 'heroic' is just another myth we're presumably here to dispel.

Any objections I have to the 'superpower' shirt stem from that issue, not worry about offending ffers. Sustainer said it best, (it was you, right? ), If you are looking for a reason to get offended by lactivism of any kind, you will. (Of course, I'm paraphrasing badly. )
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TigerTail
Now see, what I did wasn't heroic. It was normal. Other people can do normal stuff without it being an ordeal that requires a team of paid interventionists, as well. Painting successful bfing as 'heroic' is just another myth we're presumably here to dispel.

Any objections I have to the 'superpower' shirt stem from that issue, not worry about offending ffers. Sustainer said it best, (it was you, right? ), If you are looking for a reason to get offended by lactivism of any kind, you will. (Of course, I'm paraphrasing badly. )
The way you described yourself indicated that you felt yourself to be heroic. If you don't feel that way, fine. Of course what you did wasn't "normal." If it was, the majority of women would be breastfeeding. Sometimes, interventionists are necessary, paid or unpaid. In a more breastfeeding-friendly society, perhaps they wouldn't be.

I have no objections to the superpower t-shirt or to any pro-BF t-shirt. I leapt into the thread because Pookel was getting unfairly kicked around. That doesn't mean I agree with everything she says. Then I continued because it appears that some people think that there's no excuse for not being well-informed on breastfeeding. If we don't think that more widely available information and help is needed for BFing, then WHY ARE WE LACTIVISTS?
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:50 PM
 
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: : i came here to get away from anti-bf sentiment:

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Old 06-29-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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No, I described myself as a person with normal, routine setbacks. Setbacks like lack of income, support, readily accessible information, transportation to get to LLL meetings, and hideous nipple soreness (I saved mastitis for another go-round ). I merely did what I was supposed to do, just like wiping spitup from under the baby's chin or using the snot-sucker bulb (I knew that analogy would come in handy!)

How did this turn into suggesting lactivists don't want to proffer information or support? (I surely would've liked some, & perhaps wouldn't have felt I had to nurse in public restrooms. Although even LLL was into being 'discreet' back then, & nursing clothes were in short supply).

(I think its the thread title, really- I know you (OP) didn't mean to get everyone quite so riled, no doubt it was just what first came to mind; but it IS a wee bit inflammatory- I'm with you 100%, & even I flinch when I see the title come up. If it had been titled 'What do you think of this smilie ?' I don't think we'd all be so twitchy about it. At least, that's my guess.)

True confessions: I laughed when I first saw it :. It's snarky, & the more I think about it the more I'd like to slap the author, but for snark value, it's kind of funny. Even if I virulently disagree with the premise.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:36 PM
 
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Ps Fwiw, I started the very first 'AP True Confessions' thread in TAO about 5 or 6 years ago. Chalk laughing at that smilie high up on my list.
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Old 06-29-2006, 06:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasergirl
IMO if you educate yourself and seek support from others and are not in the small percentage of people who cannot BF-- then there is no reason you shouldn't have a successful BF relationship.
*Raises hand*

Did you read my story? I educated myself. I sought support. I did not (AFAIK) have true low supply issues. I had a baby who wasn't latching right and *no one* who could tell me what was going on. It's not because I didn't try hard enough. It's not because I didn't make an effort to educate myself. It's because the best websites and books in the world are not enough - women need real, in-person help from places like LLL (which does not have a group within 100 miles of me).
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:10 PM
 
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And you did great, Pookel . I would never denigrate your efforts. IRL support would have been awesome.

(Just to put another perspective in there, if I'd seen someone with that shirt when I was having problems, I wouldn't have thought, "What a jerk, she wouldn't have any respect for me & my bloody nipples, she couldn't possibly have been there"- I'd've thought, "Oh, thank God, someone confident I can ask about this who won't make a distasteful grimace & push me aside." Just a thought.)
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:13 PM
 
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Haven't read all the threads, but I feel like I have a foot in both camps so finding this thread interesting. Being a 'recovered guilt-ridden FF Mum' myself and being passionately pro-BF (I just cant wait for next DC to give it another go!!), I really think that when people are offended by the 'superpower' type statements they are reading:

Breastfeeding = Good Mother

instead of

Breasfeeding = Good

Breastfeeding doesn't make you a good mum, not breastfeeding doesn't make you a bad mum. Successfully breastfeeding does, however, represent a major achievement within your mothering career.

ETA bri276 - sorry, just realised I echoed your post!
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:14 PM
 
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I had to comment when I got to post 124. I don't need someone's permission or approval for MY clothing or sig. I am proud of what I do. Obviously I think it is better than what other people do or I wouldn't do it. Jeez! YOU are offended by the whole breastmilk/superpower thing, not everyone who couldn't or didn't for whatever reason. Making formula for you child should be a necessity, not something to brag about or be proud of. I really was feeling both sides here until you decided to tell us which slogans are appropriate and which are not. Lactivism aside, that pisses me off.:

Jennifer, mom to Joel , Duncan, Celia, and Aidan. Wife to Nathan.
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