For those who are against drapes - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 01:15 PM
 
Sabo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lml41981 View Post
That could work into this purpose, too.

http://sehlhorst.smugmug.com/photos/62908223-M.jpg

Solution to all our problems...pass these out to folks.
Sabo is offline  
#122 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 01:25 PM
 
hakeber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 3,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lml41981 View Post
That could work into this purpose, too.

http://sehlhorst.smugmug.com/photos/62908223-M.jpg

Solution to all our problems...pass these out to folks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gridley13 View Post
hakeber, your entire post cracked me up!! Thanks!
:

Rebekah - mom to Ben 03/05 and Emily 01/10, a peace educator, and a veg*n and wife to Jamie.
hakeber is offline  
#123 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 01:32 PM
 
moondiapers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lakeport, California
Posts: 6,151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I think both are ok as long as they aren't imposed on anyone. I never used a drape, but did make myself several nursing Ts and tanks because I don't want to be half naked in public. It would feel really horrible to me to take down the strap of a tank top and expose most of my upper half in order to nurse. I don't care who sees my boob, but the rest of the package is private to me. I also don't want to expose my stretched out floppy tummy skin to the public eye. There's a reason I don't wear a bikini, I'm not comfortable exposing that much skin. I have no problem with mamas who ARE comfortable doing that, but you won't catch me at it.

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
moondiapers is offline  
#124 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 01:46 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,760
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Curious View Post
Lactivists make me uncomfortable because they usually belittle my sense of modesty,

This discussion interesting to me because I had the opposite experience as you. I feel like modesty and discreet nursing is kind of pushed down our throats to the point that it’s difficult for me to differentiate between a drape and nursing clothes. I’ve seen SO many products advertising discreet nursing. Many, even here at MDC over the years.

I completely agree with the PPs who said that the prevalence of this message is in many ways harmful to lactivism. I’m just not convinced that this particular product is any worse than any other advertising discreet nursing. In fact, I think the others are more insidious in a way because they get the message in when we have our guard down.

However, in a very quick look around the internet for “organic cotton nursing tops” I did not find any advertising for discreet nursing! Cool.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#125 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay, I am really not seeing the leap from "a product exists" to "you have to use it." There are a lot of products that exist, that are advertised, that try to make it sound in their advertising that your life is somehow incomplete if you don't have one, but they aren't considered offensive, because if you don't want one, you don't buy one... the intended market for nursing drapes is breastfeeding moms who want to be covered. But if you're a breastfeeding mom who doesn't want to be covered, you don't have to be...

A drape is more practical than a blanket or scarf because blankets and scarves often fall off or get knocked off by squirmy children. Of course you don't have to buy one; even a sewing-challenged person like me could probably make one without too much trouble. But that is not really the point. To be sure I am pretty easily confused, but I don't understand the idea of "I support a woman's right to wear a drape, but oppose advertising of drapes." I think that is a distinction without a difference. Not that drape advertising is essential to drape usage; obviously it isn't. But it is basically saying that using a drape is an inferior option--like "you can if you want to, but don't give anybody the impression that it's a good idea."

And anyway I am not really talking about the advertising. I know some people are against any and all advertising anyway; I don't really care about that. But there have been statements against drape-using mothers in particular. Maybe you (general) haven't seen them, but they were made.

I don't see how drape existence/usage/marketing causes early weaning, either. Maybe you would have a hard time using it with a 5 yr old, but you can easily nurse up to age 2, maybe 3, under a drape. In fact I found it more useful when my babies got older and started using it at home, too, because it prevented them from trying to scoot across the room while still latched on.


And if anyone is curious, my drape is neither pink sparkly nor ducky printed. But if someone believes (for whatever reasons that may be beyond me) that pink sparkly and ducky prints are attractive and appropriate for an adult, more power to them...
Brigianna is offline  
#126 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
Honestly, I would challenge you to find a post where someone said they would interfere with a woman who was using a nursing canopy.

People have said they wouldn't choose them for themselves.

People have said they feel the language of many ads for nursing canopies are coercive and negative.

People have said they feel sad that we live in a society where breasts are sexualized and women feel that they need to cover a baby nursing. People have said they wish it were otherwise.

But I haven't seen anyone criticizing how a woman chooses to breastfeed.
This is just a difference of perception I guess. I don't see how "feeling sad that women feel the need to cover" is anything but disrespectful and condescending and dismissive of those women. If someone feels a certain way, how is it not disrespectful to say that there's something wrong with their feeling that way? When people say, "women shouldn't feel uncomfortable exposing their breasts while nursing"--who are they to tell me or anyone how we should feel?
Brigianna is offline  
#127 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lml41981 View Post
I hope I am misunderstanding this quote. The way you set this quote up to say that draping sends a message that the woman controls who sees her body and that non-draping sends the same message seems to imply that a person who doesn't wear a drape shows *everyone* her body (and that she's ok with that because she was in charge of showing *everyone* her body). Again, I really hope I am misunderstanding you, but THAT is the problem I have with drapes. Even if that isn't what YOU are saying, that is what I hear from countless others...that we're exhibitionists because we won't use a blanket or a drape. We're obviously wanting to create a scene (because, you know, our babies nurse best when there is a huge scene to distract them) because we won't "just cover it up."
No, not that she shows everyone her body, but she is making a choice. If you choose to cover yourself with a drape, that is your choice. If you choose to cover yourself with specifically-designed nursing clothes, that is your choice. If you choose to nurse without regard for exposure, that is your choice. One is not more of a choice than the other. So you can't say that you're supporting autonomy and freedom of choice if you're only supporting one of those choices. Not that you're exhibitionists or that one choice is better than another, but that they are both personal choices.


Quote:
No, it isn't hypocritical. Clothing serves a function outside hiding our bodies. Nursing drapes don't. I can walk around the mall in a nursing shirt and not look odd even though I'm not nursing. If I walk around the mall with a nursing drape on, I'm gonna look odd (nursing or not, IMO). If it were our cultural habit to wear aprons and blankets at all times, then yes, I'd probably wear a nursing drape. Nursing clothes are about having something you have to wear anyway made in a manner in which it might be easier to use for nursing.

Part of the lure of breastfeeding was that there are no accessories needed for the most part. Maybe one might need lanolin, nursing pads or a pump for work, but I don't need to buy an apron or anything like that to cover up. I did need new shirts after having DD anyway, so buying some shirts that made nursing easier was no big deal.
Okay, but one primary function of clothing is to cover the body, especially in hot climates, right? So if you're objecting to the idea of covering your body, why would this not extend to clothes?
Brigianna is offline  
#128 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 02:27 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 41,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
This is just a difference of perception I guess. I don't see how "feeling sad that women feel the need to cover" is anything but disrespectful and condescending and dismissive of those women. If someone feels a certain way, how is it not disrespectful to say that there's something wrong with their feeling that way? When people say, "women shouldn't feel uncomfortable exposing their breasts while nursing"--who are they to tell me or anyone how we should feel?
Isn't it also disrespectful and condescending and dismissive to tell women they shouldn't feel sad that their own personal ideal of society isn't being met? Feelings are feelings. Trying to pin them down and label them is like cloud catching.

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
#129 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 02:33 PM
 
arimama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have only come into contact with a mom wearing a nursing coverup once, and it was baby blue with little teddy bears on it.
The message I got was "hello over here, I'm an adult wearing a bib. Oh and I'm breastfeeding too".
It was waaay tacky. I'm totally against tackiness
arimama is offline  
#130 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
Isn't it also disrespectful and condescending and dismissive to tell women they shouldn't feel sad that their own personal ideal of society isn't being met? Feelings are feelings. Trying to pin them down and label them is like cloud catching.
They have the right to feel that way, and to feel sad that women choose to use drapes, but to say that we shouldn't feel that way, is another matter. People are saying, basically, that it's wrong for women to feel uncomfortable being uncovered. How is it wrong if that's the way we feel?
Brigianna is offline  
#131 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 03:18 PM
 
orangefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 3,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Brig

read 'general you' where I say 'you'

I think you are underestimating - if not ignoring altogether - that it is the society in which you are brought up which makes you feel the way you do about your body and what you are confortable with.

If the society you live in is totally accepting of the breast feeding of children (not just infants) there are no rules about discretion or how much skin each individual is comfortable revealing.

Saggy boobs unappealing? Post pregnancy flabby belly with tiger stripes? Uncomfortable in a bikini? Why?

This is not about us it is about generations of learned attitudes reinforced through judgement by our peers and others and yes by the products we are encouraged to buy in this case.
orangefoot is offline  
#132 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 03:32 PM
 
lml41981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
No, not that she shows everyone her body, but she is making a choice. If you choose to cover yourself with a drape, that is your choice. If you choose to cover yourself with specifically-designed nursing clothes, that is your choice. If you choose to nurse without regard for exposure, that is your choice. One is not more of a choice than the other. So you can't say that you're supporting autonomy and freedom of choice if you're only supporting one of those choices. Not that you're exhibitionists or that one choice is better than another, but that they are both personal choices.
I hope you can at least see how the wording of what you said led me to believe you were saying women who don't use drapes are not controlling who can see their bodies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
Okay, but one primary function of clothing is to cover the body, especially in hot climates, right? So if you're objecting to the idea of covering your body, why would this not extend to clothes?
Because I don't. I don't think I *really* have to explain that to you. I find the suggestion that I must oppose clothing, in general, because I am not fond of nursing drapes ridiculous and absurd. I think you're intentionally being obtuse about it. Everybody wears clothing (unless you're in a nudist colony on private property or at a legal nude beach) in public. Not everybody wears nursing drapes or blankets over their shoulders in public. If YOU want to wear one, that is fine, but I reserve the right to think it is silly to take up the extra space in the diaper bag and to be concerned that one day you or anyone else will say, "Why can't you cover that up? Seriously...they make products just for that these days." And you want to know that people really do say that? Go to any of the bulletin boards or comment logs for any of the articles posted about the Delta incident and you will find dozens upon dozens of people saying, "Just cover it up," "Just use a blanket," "My wife ALWAYS used a blanket and I don't see why others can't," "*I* purchased a Hooter Hider and always wore that because *I* have respect for myself and others around me. This woman was just being disrespectful and she should have covered it up."

It isn't that the products, themselves, are offensive. It is what people do with them that makes it offensive...and I'm not talking about using them, but expecting others to use them and making their use the minimum standard for NIP. I find it offensive that the companies who market them send the message that nursing needs to be covered up with something you have to spend money on in order to be discreet. I find the name "Hooter Hiders" offensive because G-d forbid someone see you using your fun-bags for function.

I don't know how much more clear I (or anyone else) can be... Nursing drapes are not clothing. They are not something everybody wears under the current societal constraints and so I think it is silly to expect one group of people to have to purchase them and carry them with them at all times.

If this entire thread is because YOU feel picked on, well...build a bridge and get over it. Nobody is making any comments about YOU (so long as you are not going to be one of the ones who comes back and says, "Well *I* used a coverup and so should she.").
lml41981 is offline  
#133 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 03:47 PM
 
hakeber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 3,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
They have the right to feel that way, and to feel sad that women choose to use drapes, but to say that we shouldn't feel that way, is another matter. People are saying, basically, that it's wrong for women to feel uncomfortable being uncovered. How is it wrong if that's the way we feel?
Along the lines of this I will say that many woman may not feel comfortable, not because others are disgusted, or offended, but bevcause they feel a need for safety.

The fact that the breast IS such a sexual image gives many men the sense of entitlement to look...no, not just look, GAWK at women's breasts, and generally I do not think they are disgusted per se. In fact, I think they are just embarassed and defensive when they caught feeling sexually aroused by a baby nursing.

If we can't begin to send men the message that our bodies are NOT for their viewing pleasure, I think it would be very hard for some women, especially women who have experience with sexual harrassment or assault, to feel comfortable uncovering their breasts.

In many communities where the human body is not taboo, and overtly objectified by sexual images, women do not feel uncomfortable about breastfeeding openly in public at all. The very idea of a woman wearing a drape to feed their child would be absolutely absurd. In communities where sex and shame are not so entangled as it is in the states, there are a lot fewer hang-ups about these sorts of things.

IMO, the shame around breastfeeding, doesn't come from drapes; it comes from social messages that it is OKAY for men to stare at women like objects (not just sexually appealing people...OBJECTS), so when the breast comes out, they feel they have full permission to stare at them, and only recently have they been told that this is not okay...but they only HEAR this message verbally when they get caught in action, or from ranting "raging feminist", they do not SEE this message in action, especially with pop-star grrrrrls licking their nipples in videos, TV shows that help the desparados of society with free boob-jobs, and commercials for ketchup that involves pin-up girls. So men get caught and they turn red because they HEAR they shouldn't be so animalistic, but they SEE that it's perfectly normal for them to do so...so how dare we ask them to deny them of their natural animal urges.

The women who choose to cover up, for whatever reason, IMHO are not the ones sending the message that it is not okay to BF in public covered or otherwise. They merely don't help the issue, by contributing to the normalization of uncovered NIP...I compare it to the women who choose to be strippers; they don't help the cause of feminist working against the objectification of women, but you can't blame the stripper really...her choices are more often than not a result of the messages she recieved that said exposing her body is a good way to get respect and power.

But you CAN blame the adverts of drapes if they use subversive techniques to spread their bias in a malicious way...the adverts which say "Gives you the freedom to nurse in public!" or "Hides you hooters!" send the subtextual message that showing your boobies is WRONG and that the female form is only to be seen in private, which on its own would not be wrong, morally judgemental but not necessarily wrong, but when coupled with the everyday messages we see everywhere else, that girls' boobs are HOT, SEXXXY and "pornographic" well, you can't help but wonder what your breasts are really for. :

Sure, you can choose not to buy something, but you can't always filter out every subliminal message society sends you ESPECIALLY if you aren't REALLY on your gaurd, and how many of us spend their days examining the messages we recieve? God, would that be exhausting, or what? And places like THIS I think are supposed to be a safe haven from THOS sort of messages, those confusing mixed messages that turn us inside and make us question our very human nature.

So ultimately I can completely understand WHY a woman would want to cover up...sometimes I feel naked and vulnerable when I'm fully clothed, the way men on the street look at me, let alone with my nipple in my child's mouth, but I also understand why other women would feel that they need to stop drapes from being used, because they do reinforce the ideas that lactivist are fighting against...I don't think, however, that it is a fair expectation of women to feel comfortable NOT using drapes until we fix the problem of WHY they feel uncomfortable.

For me it is not just a matter of CHOOSING to be comfortable and doing it. I need to feel safe, too, and I don't think I would feel safe with a dirty old man staring at me while I try to feed to my baby...for some reason, the scarf, like a force feild or a magical sheild, seems to keep them at bay. Maybe that's all in my head, but it makes me feel safe. And my kid never complained about being stuffy...I think he was just too excited to get some milk to really care how that happened.

I do think one can choose to drape for now when they feel they need to, and still be active in fighting for a time when all women WILL feel comfortable to not drape. I do think you CAN drape and still be lactivist.

I said, I still think they should be tasteful, convenient and not be made of fabric that looks like a frog that got caught in a blender. I also think the apron look is weird, but there is no accounting for some people's taste. :

Rebekah - mom to Ben 03/05 and Emily 01/10, a peace educator, and a veg*n and wife to Jamie.
hakeber is offline  
#134 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefoot View Post
Brig

read 'general you' where I say 'you'

I think you are underestimating - if not ignoring altogether - that it is the society in which you are brought up which makes you feel the way you do about your body and what you are confortable with.

If the society you live in is totally accepting of the breast feeding of children (not just infants) there are no rules about discretion or how much skin each individual is comfortable revealing.

Saggy boobs unappealing? Post pregnancy flabby belly with tiger stripes? Uncomfortable in a bikini? Why?

This is not about us it is about generations of learned attitudes reinforced through judgement by our peers and others and yes by the products we are encouraged to buy in this case.
I can only speak for myself, not for anyone else, but in my own case, my reasons for wanting to be covered have nothing to do with society or shame. Why? Because I believe that my body is private. No one has a right to look at it unless I specifically give them permission to. And again, this is not a judgement on people who feel differently. You have a right to your opinion. But that is not the only pro-breastfeeding pro-children's-rights opinion. I believe that single issue advocacy (in MDC's case, children's rights, including the right to breastmilk whenever and wherever) is diluted when you bring in other issues.
Brigianna is offline  
#135 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:03 PM
 
lml41981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
I can only speak for myself, not for anyone else, but in my own case, my reasons for wanting to be covered have nothing to do with society or shame. Why? Because I believe that my body is private. No one has a right to look at it unless I specifically give them permission to. And again, this is not a judgement on people who feel differently.
And again, here's the implication that moms who don't use a cover are giving everyone a free pass to look at their bodies.

As it happens, I don't give a darn if someone is looking at my body. I am fully aware that my body can be looked at against my wishes while I'm nursing or not, covered or not. I can't control what other people do with their eyes. But I do resent the implication that those who don't cover are allowing everyone free reign to look at their bodies. It is just a stone's throw from saying that to calling us immodest exhibitionists.
lml41981 is offline  
#136 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:06 PM
 
hakeber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 3,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
I can only speak for myself, not for anyone else, but in my own case, my reasons for wanting to be covered have nothing to do with society or shame. Why? Because I believe that my body is private. No one has a right to look at it unless I specifically give them permission to. .
Just curious though...where did that belief came from? Do you think it's just a natural phenomenon, to feel your body is private?

Rebekah - mom to Ben 03/05 and Emily 01/10, a peace educator, and a veg*n and wife to Jamie.
hakeber is offline  
#137 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lml41981 View Post
I hope you can at least see how the wording of what you said led me to believe you were saying women who don't use drapes are not controlling who can see their bodies.
Yes I can see that. But that is not what I meant. I don't think draping vs. non-draping is any better or worse choice. It's your body. You should do what you're comfortable with.

Quote:
Because I don't. I don't think I *really* have to explain that to you. I find the suggestion that I must oppose clothing, in general, because I am not fond of nursing drapes ridiculous and absurd. I think you're intentionally being obtuse about it. Everybody wears clothing (unless you're in a nudist colony on private property or at a legal nude beach) in public. Not everybody wears nursing drapes or blankets over their shoulders in public. If YOU want to wear one, that is fine, but I reserve the right to think it is silly to take up the extra space in the diaper bag and to be concerned that one day you or anyone else will say, "Why can't you cover that up? Seriously...they make products just for that these days." And you want to know that people really do say that? Go to any of the bulletin boards or comment logs for any of the articles posted about the Delta incident and you will find dozens upon dozens of people saying, "Just cover it up," "Just use a blanket," "My wife ALWAYS used a blanket and I don't see why others can't," "*I* purchased a Hooter Hider and always wore that because *I* have respect for myself and others around me. This woman was just being disrespectful and she should have covered it up."

It isn't that the products, themselves, are offensive. It is what people do with them that makes it offensive...and I'm not talking about using them, but expecting others to use them and making their use the minimum standard for NIP. I find it offensive that the companies who market them send the message that nursing needs to be covered up with something you have to spend money on in order to be discreet. I find the name "Hooter Hiders" offensive because G-d forbid someone see you using your fun-bags for function.

I don't know how much more clear I (or anyone else) can be... Nursing drapes are not clothing. They are not something everybody wears under the current societal constraints and so I think it is silly to expect one group of people to have to purchase them and carry them with them at all times.
No, not because you're "not fond of" nursing drapes. People can be fond of or not fond of whatever articles of clothing they like, or don't. Personally I'm not fond of low-rider jeans. I'm not offended by their existence though. I was specifically asking about people who believe that nursing drapes are offensive on the grounds that women should not be concerned with exposing their breasts. That women who want to keep our breasts covered should not feel that way. And yes I believe that that is hypocritical unless you are a complete nudist. Or at least a complete female-toplessness advocate (not an advocate for the right to be topless, but actually advocate that no one should wear a shirt). If it is offensive to cover your breasts while breastfeeding, why isn't it offensive to cover your breasts while not breastfeeding? If modesty (in the body-covering sense) is offensive in a breastfeeding context, why not in all contexts?

And again, I am not talking about people who personally dislike nursing drapes, or who oppose drapes being imposed or required. I am talking about people who find them offensive, and who believe that women are wrong or shameful for wanting to be covered.

Quote:
If this entire thread is because YOU feel picked on, well...build a bridge and get over it. Nobody is making any comments about YOU (so long as you are not going to be one of the ones who comes back and says, "Well *I* used a coverup and so should she.").
When they say that women who are uncomfortable without a drape are wrong to feel that way, when they say that covering is based on shame, when they suggest that women who use drapes must beat their kids, then yes they are making comments about me and every other women who chooses to use a drape.
Brigianna is offline  
#138 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:17 PM
 
TranscendentalMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Heart Chakra
Posts: 2,603
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I like nursing clothes tho I only have a few. I am not at all ashamed of breastfeeding but I don't really like my breast on display so I do like clothes that help me to be more discreet.

My problem when I tried a blanket is that they make me LESS discreet. My daughter starts fussing and pulling the blanket off her head. Then I put it back, then she starts crying and people turn & stare while she tosses the blanket aside and then angrily lifts my shirt higher in protest! She would have me topless in public if she could have it her way!

I have nothing against drapes in principal, they just don't work for me.

"We shape the clay into a pot but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want" Lao Tzu
TranscendentalMom is offline  
#139 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:18 PM
 
Reikagoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mahanoy City, PA
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
: First off, I'm sorry if I repeat something someone else has already said... but... here's my views.

I'm 23. I'm a fairly young mama. My tummy is saggy baggy and bears a ton of battlescars. : I'm proud of that. But... I've never been comfy raising my shirt up to feed my kiddos...

On the other hand, My 'milkies' are also baggy, saggy, and they have a few marks, too. I also have 'ginormous' aeriolas. Big deal.

Nursing clothes... eh, not my thing. I'm young, so why should I dress differently to feed my kiddo?

We use the 'pull the whole thing out' method. DS gets his food, I get funny looks, but after he's done, I look like every other mama out there.

I wear lots of tank tops. I've always worn low-cut shirts... not so much so I can 'attract' men, but because they feel less constricting.

If it's windy, or drizzily, I might flip up the edge of the sling to cover the back of DS's head. Lol. I do not cover a thing, I show alot more than most mamas, and I am not ashamed in any way shape or form.

Skin is skin. We all have it... who really cares how much does or doesn't show?

I honestly think people who think body parts are taboo have serious issues.
Reikagoth is offline  
#140 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakeber View Post
Along the lines of this I will say that many woman may not feel comfortable, not because others are disgusted, or offended, but bevcause they feel a need for safety.

The fact that the breast IS such a sexual image gives many men the sense of entitlement to look...no, not just look, GAWK at women's breasts, and generally I do not think they are disgusted per se. In fact, I think they are just embarassed and defensive when they caught feeling sexually aroused by a baby nursing.

If we can't begin to send men the message that our bodies are NOT for their viewing pleasure, I think it would be very hard for some women, especially women who have experience with sexual harrassment or assault, to feel comfortable uncovering their breasts.

In many communities where the human body is not taboo, and overtly objectified by sexual images, women do not feel uncomfortable about breastfeeding openly in public at all. The very idea of a woman wearing a drape to feed their child would be absolutely absurd. In communities where sex and shame are not so entangled as it is in the states, there are a lot fewer hang-ups about these sorts of things.

IMO, the shame around breastfeeding, doesn't come from drapes; it comes from social messages that it is OKAY for men to stare at women like objects (not just sexually appealing people...OBJECTS), so when the breast comes out, they feel they have full permission to stare at them, and only recently have they been told that this is not okay...but they only HEAR this message verbally when they get caught in action, or from ranting "raging feminist", they do not SEE this message in action, especially with pop-star grrrrrls licking their nipples in videos, TV shows that help the desparados of society with free boob-jobs, and commercials for ketchup that involves pin-up girls. So men get caught and they turn red because they HEAR they shouldn't be so animalistic, but they SEE that it's perfectly normal for them to do so...so how dare we ask them to deny them of their natural animal urges.

The women who choose to cover up, for whatever reason, IMHO are not the ones sending the message that it is not okay to BF in public covered or otherwise. They merely don't help the issue, by contributing to the normalization of uncovered NIP...I compare it to the women who choose to be strippers; they don't help the cause of feminist working against the objectification of women, but you can't blame the stripper really...her choices are more often than not a result of the messages she recieved that said exposing her body is a good way to get respect and power.

But you CAN blame the adverts of drapes if they use subversive techniques to spread their bias in a malicious way...the adverts which say "Gives you the freedom to nurse in public!" or "Hides you hooters!" send the subtextual message that showing your boobies is WRONG and that the female form is only to be seen in private, which on its own would not be wrong, morally judgemental but not necessarily wrong, but when coupled with the everyday messages we see everywhere else, that girls' boobs are HOT, SEXXXY and "pornographic" well, you can't help but wonder what your breasts are really for. :

Sure, you can choose not to buy something, but you can't always filter out every subliminal message society sends you ESPECIALLY if you aren't REALLY on your gaurd, and how many of us spend their days examining the messages we recieve? God, would that be exhausting, or what? And places like THIS I think are supposed to be a safe haven from THOS sort of messages, those confusing mixed messages that turn us inside and make us question our very human nature.

So ultimately I can completely understand WHY a woman would want to cover up...sometimes I feel naked and vulnerable when I'm fully clothed, the way men on the street look at me, let alone with my nipple in my child's mouth, but I also understand why other women would feel that they need to stop drapes from being used, because they do reinforce the ideas that lactivist are fighting against...I don't think, however, that it is a fair expectation of women to feel comfortable NOT using drapes until we fix the problem of WHY they feel uncomfortable.

For me it is not just a matter of CHOOSING to be comfortable and doing it. I need to feel safe, too, and I don't think I would feel safe with a dirty old man staring at me while I try to feed to my baby...for some reason, the scarf, like a force feild or a magical sheild, seems to keep them at bay. Maybe that's all in my head, but it makes me feel safe. And my kid never complained about being stuffy...I think he was just too excited to get some milk to really care how that happened.

I do think one can choose to drape for now when they feel they need to, and still be active in fighting for a time when all women WILL feel comfortable to not drape. I do think you CAN drape and still be lactivist.

I said, I still think they should be tasteful, convenient and not be made of fabric that looks like a frog that got caught in a blender. I also think the apron look is weird, but there is no accounting for some people's taste. :
I agree that men leering at women is wrong. Men should be taught not to do that. It isn't women's job to prevent men from leering. But unfortunately that seems to be how it is interpreted in many cases.

I don't believe that there will ever be a time when all women will feel comfortable to not drape. People are different. Some people will always be more private or modest. Some people will believe that for religious reasons. Some people will just find it easier. I don't think lacivists should be trying to make women feel comfortable to not drape. I think they should be fighting for the rights of nursing women to nurse whenever and wherever, with or without a drape, with or without clothes, even (I'm all for the repeal of indecent exposure laws). I think they should fight for rights and social acceptability for all mothers to nurse according to their comfort level. They should not be about saying that some mothers' comfort level is wrong or offensive or shameful.
Brigianna is offline  
#141 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lml41981 View Post
And again, here's the implication that moms who don't use a cover are giving everyone a free pass to look at their bodies.

As it happens, I don't give a darn if someone is looking at my body. I am fully aware that my body can be looked at against my wishes while I'm nursing or not, covered or not. I can't control what other people do with their eyes. But I do resent the implication that those who don't cover are allowing everyone free reign to look at their bodies. It is just a stone's throw from saying that to calling us immodest exhibitionists.
I specifically said this is not a judgement on people who feel differently. Not using a drape is not giving people a free pass to look at your body. How much of your body you choose to expose or cover is your choice, and nobody else's business. I have never criticized anyone for not using a drape. I don't care whether you do or not. It is your choice. I don't think what other people do with their bodies is offensive.
Brigianna is offline  
#142 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakeber View Post
Just curious though...where did that belief came from? Do you think it's just a natural phenomenon, to feel your body is private?
No. It is a choice. And I'm not saying it's better or worse than any other choice. It is just a personal choice.
Brigianna is offline  
#143 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:33 PM
 
BelgianSheepDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: unemployed in Greenland
Posts: 7,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Is anyone else getting ads for valances on the sidebar? :
BelgianSheepDog is offline  
#144 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:47 PM
 
hakeber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 3,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
I agree that men leering at women is wrong. Men should be taught not to do that. It isn't women's job to prevent men from leering. But unfortunately that seems to be how it is interpreted in many cases.

I don't believe that there will ever be a time when all women will feel comfortable to not drape. People are different. Some people will always be more private or modest. Some people will believe that for religious reasons. Some people will just find it easier. I don't think lacivists should be trying to make women feel comfortable to not drape. I think they should be fighting for the rights of nursing women to nurse whenever and wherever, with or without a drape, with or without clothes, even (I'm all for the repeal of indecent exposure laws). I think they should fight for rights and social acceptability for all mothers to nurse according to their comfort level. They should not be about saying that some mothers' comfort level is wrong or offensive or shameful.
I agree with the end goal, but do you see at all how some women feel that those who wear drapes are reinforcing the stereotypes, rather than helping the cause?

I think, for example that IF a woman wants to be a stripper, by all means she should have that right, but until society can be SURE that those women are CHOOSING that right freely and uninfluenced by social pressures, objectification, and exploitation, I am not too pleased with the women who so flippantly say "Whatever, I can do what I want!" without recognizing the message they send to their clients and more importantly to society as a whole. They conciously or otherwise feed into the stereotypes and stigmas that make it so hard for women to really HAVE free choices at all.

So while I agree that ultimately it would be great for women to be able to CHOSE for themselves to cover or not cover, I can utterly sympathize with women who say I am doing the wrong thing by covering my boons in public while nursing. I can accept that they feel my choices are affecting and influencing the choices of other people, especially since I talk about it on a board of mothers who have gathered for support and unity in the cause to uncover the breast and reveal it as a natural part of humanity rather than a "private part". I think it's okay to let them be angry, and to go find my draping friends elsewhere. I also can get behind their need to have a space free from the sort of advertising that contrdicts their beliefs.

I think it is a catch 22...until lactavists wake up and involve enough people to change the way society views the breasts, many women will chose to cover up who might NOT otherwise because of the society we live in and lacativsts will never know which ones have chosen it freely and which ones are victims of the system they fight against. On the otherhand, women who drape won't really know if THEY have made a free choice or have been influenced by their society until the choice really is FREE, and by that I mean, until lactavists realize their goal of having a society that treats the breast just like the shoulder or the elbow or the nose.

How can you tell if your choices are free until all the choices are truly available for everyone without fear, shame or stigmatization? And if you are an activist, how can you NOT try to convince everyone to rail against society and shun social pressures until your aim is reached?

See what I mean?

Rebekah - mom to Ben 03/05 and Emily 01/10, a peace educator, and a veg*n and wife to Jamie.
hakeber is offline  
#145 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:48 PM
 
annettemarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the Restricted Section
Posts: 41,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog View Post
Is anyone else getting ads for valances on the sidebar? :

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

annettemarie is offline  
#146 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:51 PM
 
simonee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Where the sun don't shine
Posts: 5,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think nursing under a drape is better than not nursing at all, and i totally respect people's wish to keep their body "private", similar to women who cover for religious reasons (whatever the religion). Your body, your choice.

But I would feel bad if my child grew up believing that eating in public would mean eating under a blanket. I mean, I like eating under a blanket at nite and privately, ifkwim, but I believe every child has a right to breathe fresh air while eating. When my body choies involve my child's body choices as well, I feel a bit squicky.

I also wonder, on a tangent, if the "privacy-concerned" members ever change their child's diaper in a public area (including restrooms)? That would seem like a contradiction to me, becuase it shows less concern with the child's "private areas" than with your own.

Me? We do everything in public. I have never seen a nursing drape in Europe, I think they're like those quiverful jumpers that you never see here either.
My argument is: if you don't like looking at my boob, there's always my lovely smile
simonee is offline  
#147 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 04:54 PM
 
hakeber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 3,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
No. It is a choice. And I'm not saying it's better or worse than any other choice. It is just a personal choice.
aha, but how do you know your personal choices are yours alone, until all choices are truly available to you, until you live in a society that supports all choices equally?

I'm not saying you should make choices that you don't feel comfortable with, but neither can you claim original ownership of those choices until society has really laid out all the choices. ETA: and neither should you feel persecuted by those who are fighting to make those choices open to everyone else.

I think of the communist countries like Russia when they went capitalist...people had always believed their whole lives that one particular brand was their favorite vodka...had it all the time, never bought another...then more than two brands appeared on the shelf and suddenly confusion and chaos ensued.

How can you know it's a PERSONAL choice, if only a limited amount of choices are REALLY open in the first place, KWIM?

Rebekah - mom to Ben 03/05 and Emily 01/10, a peace educator, and a veg*n and wife to Jamie.
hakeber is offline  
#148 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakeber View Post
I agree with the end goal, but do you see at all how some women feel that those who wear drapes are reinforcing the stereotypes, rather than helping the cause?

I think, for example that IF a woman wants to be a stripper, by all means she should have that right, but until society can be SURE that those women are CHOOSING that right freely and uninfluenced by social pressures, objectification, and exploitation, I am not too pleased with the women who so flippantly say "Whatever, I can do what I want!" without recognizing the message they send to their clients and more importantly to society as a whole. They conciously or otherwise feed into the stereotypes and stigmas that make it so hard for women to really HAVE free choices at all.

So while I agree that ultimately it would be great for women to be able to CHOSE for themselves to cover or not cover, I can utterly sympathize with women who say I am doing the wrong thing by covering my boons in public while nursing. I can accept that they feel my choices are affecting and influencing the choices of other people, especially since I talk about it on a board of mothers who have gathered for support and unity in the cause to uncover the breast and reveal it as a natural part of humanity rather than a "private part". I think it's okay to let them be angry, and to go find my draping friends elsewhere. I also can get behind their need to have a space free from the sort of advertising that contrdicts their beliefs.

I think it is a catch 22...until lactavists wake up and involve enough people to change the way society views the breasts, many women will chose to cover up who might NOT otherwise because of the society we live in and lacativsts will never know which ones have chosen it freely and which ones are victims of the system they fight against. On the otherhand, women who drape won't really know if THEY have made a free choice or have been influenced by their society until the choice really is FREE, and by that I mean, until lactavists realize their goal of having a society that treats the breast just like the shoulder or the elbow or the nose.

How can you tell if your choices are free until all the choices are truly available for everyone without fear, shame or stigmatization? And if you are an activist, how can you NOT try to convince everyone to rail against society and shun social pressures until your aim is reached?

See what I mean?
I don't think, for most neurologically typical people, there will ever be such a thing as "uninfluenced by social pressures." If the majority of women were un-draped it would probably become "uncool" to use a drape, and women who maybe wanted to use a drape would not do so because they wanted to fit in. Other than in nursing (which I agree the emphasis on is hypocritical) there is not much support for modesty in current American culture. If you don't want to wear a swimsuit or whatever, you're disordered. In any case, no, I don't think people's anger is justified against what adults do with their own bodies, whether it's draping or stripping. Especially not in the name of advocating for free choice. My choosing to wear a drape does not in any way affect your right not to wear a drape. Even if some people say "why can't you wear a drape, those people do," that is them saying that, not the drape wearers or even the drape makers/sellers. Freedom of choice has to mean freedom of choice for everyone.
Brigianna is offline  
#149 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 05:05 PM
 
hakeber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bogota, Colombia
Posts: 3,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
I don't think, for most neurologically typical people, there will ever be such a thing as "uninfluenced by social pressures." If the majority of women were un-draped it would probably become "uncool" to use a drape, and women who maybe wanted to use a drape would not do so because they wanted to fit in. Other than in nursing (which I agree the emphasis on is hypocritical) there is not much support for modesty in current American culture. If you don't want to wear a swimsuit or whatever, you're disordered. In any case, no, I don't think people's anger is justified against what adults do with their own bodies, whether it's draping or stripping. Especially not in the name of advocating for free choice. My choosing to wear a drape does not in any way affect your right not to wear a drape. Even if some people say "why can't you wear a drape, those people do," that is them saying that, not the drape wearers or even the drape makers/sellers. Freedom of choice has to mean freedom of choice for everyone.
so then, you're just anti-activist in general, right?

Rebekah - mom to Ben 03/05 and Emily 01/10, a peace educator, and a veg*n and wife to Jamie.
hakeber is offline  
#150 of 304 Old 11-22-2006, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
Brigianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: who knows?
Posts: 9,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakeber View Post
aha, but how do you know your personal choices are yours alone, until all choices are truly available to you, until you live in a society that supports all choices equally?

I'm not saying you should make choices that you don't feel comfortable with, but neither can you claim original ownership of those choices until society has really laid out all the choices. ETA: and neither should you feel persecuted by those who are fighting to make those choices open to everyone else.

I think of the communist countries like Russia when they went capitalist...people had always believed their whole lives that one particular brand was their favorite vodka...had it all the time, never bought another...then more than two brands appeared on the shelf and suddenly confusion and chaos ensued.

How can you know it's a PERSONAL choice, if only a limited amount of choices are REALLY open in the first place, KWIM?
I have the choice to wear the drape or not. There's no mandatory draping law here. Are you asking me for me personally, or in general? I can't speak for what other people in society might do, but for myself, I'm basically a social dropout and pretty much immune to social pressure, so... not motivated by conformity here.
Brigianna is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off