Does "pro-breastfeeding" equal "anti-formula"? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by inchijen View Post

Just to be clear... I HAVE NEVER SAID WE SHOULD TELL NEW MOTHERS FORMULA IS POISON.
and
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Its been explained time and again by everyone who thinks formula is poisoning our infants that those ARE OUR BELIEFS. NOT our lactivism tactic.

I in no way was expecting to go back to the poison thing.

Here is where i take issue with even the statement, though I obviously would never want to tell anyone what to think.

First of all, we are not in an exclusive board where you only need a password to access these posts. ANYONE IN THE WORLD can read them. People looking for ammo against lactivism can read them. FF by force moms who are looking for ways to promote breastfeeding. BF moms who are interested in promotion but are not as hard core as us.

I know it seems unfair to have to censor our words in this supposedly safe space. but it isn't a safe space. We are held accountable for our words here. Whether we should be or not is moot - the audience for this forum is much wider than the small group of women posting.

So I do take issue to the posts of "I personally think formula is poison but of course I'd never tell anyone (outside our small little group_ that" because you just DID tell the whole world that.

Siobhan

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#182 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
we need to change the default assumptions of this culture. And it is changing. the fact that you can now see photos of celebrities bfing. The fact that there are story lines on tv sitcoms involving bfing moms. The fact that people at least give lip service to bfing.

It isn't enough, but we are moving in the right direction.

however, you can keep the momentum moving without going negative. It is vital to never make an individual you wish to convince to change their behavior to feel personally attacked, even if what they are doing is wrong.

This wikipedia quote says it better than I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior_change



basically, individuals need to have personal ownership of their behavior changes. While humans may respond to fear of shame or recrimination, they respond on an individual level to pleasure or positive reinforcement - especially when taking individual ownership over a decision they make. Fear fades, basically. Joy doesn't.

This is why groups like LLL and online support groups are so successful at promoting breastfeeding. They make the experience of breastfeeding a pleasant one, while also offering support and understanding from women in a similar life circumstance. So each one of us can do our part by reaching out to new mothers and sharing our experience with them, even if they don't in the end decide the way we would decide. We do tremendous good just by offering alternatives to the prevailing culture.

It may not seem like a lot but in reality it is everything.
Fantastic thoughts!
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#183 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by siobhang View Post

So I do take issue to the posts of "I personally think formula is poison but of course I'd never tell anyone (outside our small little group_ that" because you just DID tell the whole world that.

Siobhan


No, I said I would never tell a new mom/ ff mom that I was trying to help that formula is poison. I tell people what i believe. Everyone that knows me knows how I feel. But they also know how I feel about organic food, dyes, and chemicals....

A lot of what gets said on this board then should be censored to not off put others or give ammo. Maybe we should be careful about what topics we post too, so as not to trigger negative comments/ hurt feelings? How much are we really going to censure ourselves and each other?

I do not mind if people know how I feel. Im not up for lying to people on the internet or IRL.

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#184 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The other issue that sometimes gets missed is that formula can help to save breastfeeding relationships as well as hinder them.

I belong to a breastfeeding support group IRL and if not for formula, several of the ladies would not be breastfeeding their little ones today. They started off with almost non-existant supplies and with the help of LCs used lactAids and formula until they were able to get domperidone and get a good supply going. Without the support and the formula, they would have just switched to a bottle.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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#185 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
and


Here is where i take issue with even the statement, though I obviously would never want to tell anyone what to think.

First of all, we are not in an exclusive board where you only need a password to access these posts. ANYONE IN THE WORLD can read them. People looking for ammo against lactivism can read them. FF by force moms who are looking for ways to promote breastfeeding. BF moms who are interested in promotion but are not as hard core as us.

I know it seems unfair to have to censor our words in this supposedly safe space. but it isn't a safe space. We are held accountable for our words here. Whether we should be or not is moot - the audience for this forum is much wider than the small group of women posting.

So I do take issue to the posts of "I personally think formula is poison but of course I'd never tell anyone (outside our small little group_ that" because you just DID tell the whole world that.

Siobhan
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The other issue that sometimes gets missed is that formula can help to save breastfeeding relationships as well as hinder them.

I belong to a breastfeeding support group IRL and if not for formula, several of the ladies would not be breastfeeding their little ones today. They started off with almost non-existant supplies and with the help of LCs used lactAids and formula until they were able to get domperidone and get a good supply going. Without the support and the formula, they would have just switched to a bottle.
Thats very true. Thats what formula is intended for- to help when bm supply is lacking. I think its like you say, the support is a huge key to a lot of breastfeeding success stories.

I have no problem with the idea of formula for the situation we have all mentioned... I just wish for the babies sake that it was made to be of a higher quality.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
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#186 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by inchijen View Post
A lot of what gets said on this board then should be censored to not off put others or give ammo. Maybe we should be careful about what topics we post too, so as not to trigger negative comments/ hurt feelings? How much are we really going to censure ourselves and each other?
All I was pointing out is that if you post it here, it is PUBLIC. Btw, I typed in "formula is poison" into google just now, and got the following link as the SECOND hit (the first had nothing to do with breastfeeding).

Does "pro-breastfeeding" equal "anti-formula"?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?p=8111067

I really feel that if people are making statements here that they wouldn't say to an individual in person, they really need to think seriously about a. the ethical implications of that behavior and b. the possibility that they might get found out.

Just pointing out the reality of our words. You can do what you will with that reality. But other people, outside our group, are reading what we are saying here.

Siobhan

You know the attributes for a great adult? Initiative, creativity, intellectual curiosity? They make for a helluva kid...
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#187 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by inchijen View Post
Thats very true. Thats what formula is intended for- to help when bm supply is lacking. I think its like you say, the support is a huge key to a lot of breastfeeding success stories.
I have experienced this too. Many babies are breastfed longer due to the "safety mechanism" of formula while they work on their supplies. Formula can be a force for good .
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I have no problem with the idea of formula for the situation we have all mentioned... I just wish for the babies sake that it was made to be of a higher quality.
this is where I agree with you 100%. It is better than before, true, but no where near good enough.

You know the attributes for a great adult? Initiative, creativity, intellectual curiosity? They make for a helluva kid...
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#188 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
All I was pointing out is that if you post it here, it is PUBLIC. Btw, I typed in "formula is poison" into google just now, and got the following link as the SECOND hit (the first had nothing to do with breastfeeding).

Does "pro-breastfeeding" equal "anti-formula"?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?p=8111067

I really feel that if people are making statements here that they wouldn't say to an individual in person, they really need to think seriously about a. the ethical implications of that behavior and b. the possibility that they might get found out.

Just pointing out the reality of our words. You can do what you will with that reality. But other people, outside our group, are reading what we are saying here.

Siobhan

I agree.. I dont think anyone should ever post anything here that they do not stand behind. If a new mother asked me what I thought of formula, I would explain exactly my beliefs. I do not use it as a lactivist method, I do not throw it in anyones face. Its not part of my repetoire. But I make no apologies. And if someone types formula is poison into google, they are clearly already aware that there are people out there that believe that.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
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#189 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:31 AM
 
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I have experienced this too. Many babies are breastfed longer due to the "safety mechanism" of formula while they work on their supplies. Formula can be a force for good .


this is where I agree with you 100%. It is better than before, true, but no where near good enough.

That is my main problem.. The lack of quality and the excessive marketing of formula. They need to redirect some funds to make formula better, IMHO. Because we really have no idea whats in it or what its doing to us.

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#190 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:44 AM
 
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"Think of it this way. There are some medicines that if we took the ingrediants by themselves, it might kill us. But mixed and processed a certain way, it becomes theraputic."
My apologies. I was thinking "arsenic in stew" not "chlorine and sodium". Happy dream moment, they discover a way to combine HCFS (yes, I know it isn't in formula) and MSG and end up with something that provides B-vitamins. I really shouldn't post here after rereading anti-breastfeeding articles.

Back on topic, could one issue be the fact that in some areas breastfeeding is still not considered socially acceptable? And as long as formula is viewed as equally valid nutritionally and of a higher value socially, there will be burdens on breastfeeding? Perhaps asserting that "formula is poison" is the equivalent of the assertions that "breastfeeding women just whip it out."
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#191 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:45 AM
 
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Yep, and then you go to a doctor like mine who says, "well yes, bm is BETTER... but that doesnt mean formula is not good. Its so much better than it used to be.... its just the colostrum that your baby really needs and she got it". I know many people who have had that said to them by a doctor.
I was trying not to doctor-bash, but I totally know what you mean. My former family doctor (there's a reason she's my FORMER doctor) first bullied me into supplementing, then when I told her I was giving him about half formula and half breastmilk a few weeks later, said, "oh, that's probably best anyway, it's easier." :

And when I was at the hospital, I had about 10 different nurses tell me 10 different things about what I was supposed to be doing. They were well-meaning, and I'm sure some of them knew what they were doing, but I had know way of knowing which ones were knowledgable and which weren't. Every time I tried to latch the baby on, it was, "no, do it THIS way ..."

Better training for people in the medical field would go a long way.
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#192 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:49 AM
 
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That is my main problem.. The lack of quality and the excessive marketing of formula. They need to redirect some funds to make formula better, IMHO. Because we really have no idea whats in it or what its doing to us.
Just imagine how good formula could be if they stopped giving out free samples.

There has been *some* progress forward, formula manufacturers are now expected to validate the quality of their processing standards to a higher quality. Not quite in line with pharmaceuticals, but better. That means that if formula is necessary for any reason, one can have more confidence that the nutrients and such are going to be as listed.
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#193 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:56 AM
 
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I'm confused, why shouldn't we be posting on a lactivist board? Does this topic belong elsewhere? With respect, I can't think of a better place for it to go.

The thread was intended to discuss the subject of lactivism and formula. To the best of my knowledge, the term 'Lactivist' means 'breastfeeding activist'. It does not mean 'anti-formula activist'. I feel strongly that you can certianly have one without the other. I don't think one must hate formula itself in order to be a breastfeeding advocate and I'm honestly quite shocked that so many have come out and said they actually hate formula itself. I don't know an
ibCLC out there who hasn't used it upon occasion. The first rule of LC's is "Feed the baby".

I used to be very anti-formula and then I grew up some, educated myself and realized that formula is not evil. It can be a very useful tool when used judiciously, as I stated in my OP. Yes, it is overused, that's a given, but it is not the root of all low breastfeeding rates.

My intention was not necessarily to 'stir things up' as you put it, but to stimulate intelligent discussion. I thought that's what these forums were for s:.
\
See I wasn't really saying that by stirring people up it was nescessarily a bad thing, in fact I think it gives everyone a chance to find what their beliefs are through expression. Though true to form I can never express my thoughts clearly in writing. I never said that I thought formula was poisen (in fact I was one of those babies who would have died without it). My main problem is that some poeple do not self educate when it comes to major descisions and that is something that aggrevates me. In truth I think we have a lot in commen.

Becky married to Dave with our sons Davey(6), Beren(3), an Angel, and Seifer(11 m)
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#194 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:57 AM
 
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I was trying not to doctor-bash, but I totally know what you mean. My former family doctor (there's a reason she's my FORMER doctor) first bullied me into supplementing, then when I told her I was giving him about half formula and half breastmilk a few weeks later, said, "oh, that's probably best anyway, it's easier." :

And when I was at the hospital, I had about 10 different nurses tell me 10 different things about what I was supposed to be doing. They were well-meaning, and I'm sure some of them knew what they were doing, but I had know way of knowing which ones were knowledgable and which weren't. Every time I tried to latch the baby on, it was, "no, do it THIS way ..."

Better training for people in the medical field would go a long way.

I know!!! every nurse in the hospital told me something different!!!!

You should see the info we got in nursing school. One teacher was very pro bfing -esp for premature babes-- the others were like "eh, whatever is fine".

But the actual info? sadly lacking. sadly lacking. I had no idea that milk could take 4 or 5 days to come in!!! I was embarassed I didnt know that.

But, I was a cardiac ICU nurse. Guess its not as pertinent?

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#195 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 01:03 AM
 
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I used to be very anti-formula and then I grew up some, educated myself and realized that formula is not evil.
.

can you clarify what you mean? this seems maybe a bit snide?

I dont want to assume you are meaning to say that people who are anti-formula are not "grown up" or "educated"..... but I just saw this and it really seems... snarky.

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#196 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 09:29 AM
 
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My apologies. I was thinking "arsenic in stew" not "chlorine and sodium". Happy dream moment, they discover a way to combine HCFS (yes, I know it isn't in formula) and MSG and end up with something that provides B-vitamins. I really shouldn't post here after rereading anti-breastfeeding articles.
I'm perfectly happy to continue this conversation with you via PM (although I keep getting the feeling you are mocking me in your posts so that might deter me continuing conversation with you).

But in answer to your quip here, I would say that you still need to prove that the MSG enters the production and exits the production in the same form and goes and comes out with the same affect on the body (after, of course, proving that negative affect in the first place). And even then, anyone who is having a logical argument with may still be able to claim fallacy of composition. Which, again, we can continue talking about via PM if you feel so inclined.

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#197 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 10:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by siobhang View Post
All I was pointing out is that if you post it here, it is PUBLIC. Btw, I typed in "formula is poison" into google just now, and got the following link as the SECOND hit (the first had nothing to do with breastfeeding).

Does "pro-breastfeeding" equal "anti-formula"?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?p=8111067
Yes, but how many mentions of it in this thread are your straw man? I never said it. And the more you bring it up, the higher it ranks. The people who suggest we are saying 'formula is poison' are the ones who call us 'boob nazis'. Not only ignorant, but openly antagonistic to all lactivism efforts. Earnest, gentle LLL folk are castigated for volunteering time & effort to help (search the thread 'Sippy Cups & Chardonnay', if it still exists).

Sometimes I need to go read 'Compleat Mother' just to cleanse my mind from all the 'formula is not so bad' propaganda here. Is there some kind of middle ground? It's pretty bad, but it's not arsenic & no one here suggested it was. (And yeah, 'dried corn syrup solids' is not far off from hfcs in my reckoning, either.) It could be much better if they spent the advertising budget on the ingredients of the actual product.
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#198 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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can you clarify what you mean? this seems maybe a bit snide?

I dont want to assume you are meaning to say that people who are anti-formula are not "grown up" or "educated"..... but I just saw this and it really seems... snarky.
I meant exactly what I typed. I, *personally* and physically, got older and more mature and as a result changed my thought processes . I was not meaning to say that people who are anti-formula are not grown up or educated. I was speaking only for myself and my own personal growth.

My intent was not to be snide nor snarky.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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#199 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sometimes I need to go read 'Compleat Mother' just to cleanse my mind from all the 'formula is not so bad' propaganda here.
I'm sorry, but I have yet to see any propaganda concerning formula here. I'm not sure what you are referring to, can you clarify?


Quote:
Is there some kind of middle ground? It's pretty bad, but it's not arsenic & no one here suggested it was. (And yeah, 'dried corn syrup solids' is not far off from hfcs in my reckoning, either.) It could be much better if they spent the advertising budget on the ingredients of the actual product.

HFCS is quite different from regular old corn syrup, or high maltose corn syrup (corn maltodextrin). Maltodextrin, due to the maltose, is more of a starch than a sugar. It's not used as a sweetner but as a thickener or a source of carbohydrates. They are worlds apart even though they're made from the same thing. Kind of like coco butter and powdered cocoa. Both come from the same plant but they are very different things.

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#200 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Definition of propaganda:

Quote:
Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
From: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/propaganda

Again, I'm not seeing any propaganda regarding formula here. I see facts, extreme opinions, some misinformation, but no propaganda.

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#201 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 11:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
I belong to a breastfeeding support group IRL and if not for formula, several of the ladies would not be breastfeeding their little ones today. They started off with almost non-existant supplies and with the help of LCs used lactAids and formula until they were able to get domperidone and get a good supply going. Without the support and the formula, they would have just switched to a bottle.
I'm having trouble making sense out of this. I can get the "without formula their babies would have gone hungry" argument, but how does formula supplementation make it easier for them to continue efforts to lactate, whereas if they didn't have formula they couldn't have done that? : If they'd had to mix their own or feed some kind of old fashioned pap or give their babies roast beef and gravy, how would that hinder them? I don't get it.
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#202 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:08 PM
 
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hi there, just thought I'd say that this is quite an interesting thread! Then figured I'd put my 2 cents in...

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Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
The other issue that sometimes gets missed is that formula can help to save breastfeeding relationships as well as hinder them.

I belong to a breastfeeding support group IRL and if not for formula, several of the ladies would not be breastfeeding their little ones today. They started off with almost non-existant supplies and with the help of LCs used lactAids and formula until they were able to get domperidone and get a good supply going. Without the support and the formula, they would have just switched to a bottle.
That sounds wonderful, and it would be equally as wonderful if that were the typical scenario of formula use in conjunction with breastfeeding. I'd wager that it is not, though.

When I hear one of my playgroup moms telling a new mom to just "have dad give the baby a bottle so you can get some sleep," I cringe a little. I think that sort of a visceral reaction is good in way though. I wish more moms felt the way I did during that conversation, deep down inside that formula is-well, unnatural!

Banana, doula wife to Papa Banana and mother to Banana One, Banana Two, Banana Three, Banana Four...

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#203 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BCFD View Post
I don't want this to come across as snarky, becasue I am asking this as a legitimate question. What happens AFTER nursing for 1, 2, 3 years and then the child is only eating solid foods? Are you ok with them eating ANY processed foods? I mean, a mom can be choosy and eat organic, fresh fruits and veggies, whole grains, but come on.....at some point the kid is going to eat a piece of birthday cake.
yup, my kids eat processed foods...and yup, i fed my first 3 babies processed formula. and i'm NOT OKAY w/it! my thinking is, how can you just be 'ok' w/formula? i don't expect ff moms to beat themselves up about their decision for the rest of their lives, but i am a FORMER ff, and i'm not ok w/that decision. it was a poor decision on my part, and i regret it, but i don't beat myself up about it. i just use that past experience and the knowledge i have gained on bf and go from here.

and i do know that there are medical reasons for ff. those are HIGHLY overused and honestly, i think some are fabricated or not fully investigated by the mom's healthcare providers!

Jen-loving Bill, mama to Teryn 18, Kalyn 16, Ricky 13, Natalie 5, Angel Zoe '07 and rainbow1284.gifAmelia Rae 22 mos bonus kids (dss) W 14, W 13 NEW grandbaby due 10/10/11

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#204 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:31 PM
 
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i wanted to add..

i advised a mom of a baby w/cleft palate to offer formula. baby was 7 months, mom was stressed beyond belief, baby was losing weight, family was terribly unhappy. i offered her my milk, even told her of a milk bank (not fresh milk) but she was a little put off by that. so, i told her to break out the formula and save her sanity, bond w/her baby, and spark things back up w/her dh...i wasn't thrilled, and neither was she, but she felt like she at least had support.

and i'm the loudest militant at the meeting LOL

Jen-loving Bill, mama to Teryn 18, Kalyn 16, Ricky 13, Natalie 5, Angel Zoe '07 and rainbow1284.gifAmelia Rae 22 mos bonus kids (dss) W 14, W 13 NEW grandbaby due 10/10/11

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#205 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm having trouble making sense out of this. I can get the "without formula their babies would have gone hungry" argument, but how does formula supplementation make it easier for them to continue efforts to lactate, whereas if they didn't have formula they couldn't have done that? : If they'd had to mix their own or feed some kind of old fashioned pap or give their babies roast beef and gravy, how would that hinder them? I don't get it.
Well, bottom line, without formula their babies would have starved. But, having the formula and using it bridged the gap. The point I was trying to get accross is that formula doesn't always destroy breastfeeding relationships. It can actually help breastfeeding relationships and this is how. It's all well and good to have a SNS, but you need something else besides water to put in it and as we've all noted, donor milk is far too scarce.

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#206 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That bit at the end about them just switching to the bottle was to illustrate that formula, used in conjunction with breastfeeding support, can help a woman get to the point where she can exclusively breastfeed her child. Does that make more sense?

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#207 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:50 PM
 
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Well, bottom line, without formula their babies would have starved. But, having the formula and using it bridged the gap. The point I was trying to get accross is that formula doesn't always destroy breastfeeding relationships. It can actually help breastfeeding relationships and this is how. It's all well and good to have a SNS, but you need something else besides water to put in it and as we've all noted, donor milk is far too scarce.
IF those women are being supported, are bf educated, and are determined enough to cut the formula out at some point. mostly, they are just told 'you are starving your baby, so use some formula' and it's downhill from there. i have helped MANY bf moms in my time, and it is a very, extremely rare occasion that one goes from supplementation to ebf. sure, i've known those that do the 'one bottle in the nursery to raise blood sugar' thing and are now ebf, but not those who supplement b/c 'their babe is starving.'

Jen-loving Bill, mama to Teryn 18, Kalyn 16, Ricky 13, Natalie 5, Angel Zoe '07 and rainbow1284.gifAmelia Rae 22 mos bonus kids (dss) W 14, W 13 NEW grandbaby due 10/10/11

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#208 of 210 Old 05-16-2007, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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IF those women are being supported, are bf educated, and are determined enough to cut the formula out at some point. mostly, they are just told 'you are starving your baby, so use some formula' and it's downhill from there. i have helped MANY bf moms in my time, and it is a very, extremely rare occasion that one goes from supplementation to ebf. sure, i've known those that do the 'one bottle in the nursery to raise blood sugar' thing and are now ebf, but not those who supplement b/c 'their babe is starving.'
The women I was referring to in my OP were being supported and 3 went on to exclusively breastfeed their babies. One had to supplement until the baby started solids at 8 months, but she recieved about 80% breastmilk and 20% formula until then .

I realize these are success stories, and while they're not the run away norm, they do happen.

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#209 of 210 Old 05-19-2007, 12:47 PM
 
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I feel as you - pumpkinhead - do. While I am a very avid breastfeeder and feel that breast is best and all mothers should attempt to breastfeed, I don't see formula as evil. The marketing behind it, well, that's another story!
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#210 of 210 Old 09-06-2007, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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bumpity

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