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#61 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 03:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post

I am curious how many women on here donate their milk to women who can't breastfeed?
I donated over 300oz to my state milk bank. It's a huge pain in the ass and let's not forget that not all women respond to a pump, so I don't see your point.

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People jump from the statement "you have an increased risk of death from SIDS" as the equivalent of "Your baby is going to die if you don't BF"? Come on, these two statements are apples and oranges. The first statement is fact, the other is hyperbole / exaggeration. NO ONE here is saying the latter.
Exactly.
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#62 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 04:10 PM
 
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I'm shocked that so many people think it's okay to offend others in such ways. Yes, breastfeeding is best. But I'm confused about what people think it accomplishes when you say "your kid is going to be obese and sick because you feed him formula." It's really not going to change anything except perhaps formula feeders feel even more strongly that breastfeeders are rude and pushy.
I agree with you totally. I BF my first two, but was unable to BF my third. I am not made of money for a milk bank, so I used formula. Funny, he has been my LEAST sick child of the three. (I still wish I could have BF him, though.) While I agree that BF needs to be touted more and made "normal", as the "default" method of feeding, I do not think it is productive to make claims about formula feeding in that manner.
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#63 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 04:27 PM
 
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[QUOTE=sonrisaa29;9978869]I look at friends children who have been breastfed and see them struggling with allergies, hundreds of ear infections, and so on. Then I look at friends who formula feed and none of their children have any of these issues. I know several women who've had cancer, both breastfed all of their children. So I agree that these studies don't match what occurs in my inner circle and I can see why people think that perhaps the whole breast is best could be exagerated (not saying it is btw) . I also do want to clarify before people jump all over me that I am not saying that the studies are wrong or that breastfeeding shouldn't be the norm.

I have to chime in here... (FTR: I BF'd my son for a short time before going back to work)

I too, believe that BF may increase the odds of having healthier children (especially at their very young ages) however, my son who was BF for a short time has only had a handful of minor colds and no ear infections or allergies ever (and very smart--great grades and great personality). DH children, were EBF (at least till 4 years old) and they are very sickly! Colds all the time, asthma, allergies. It disconcerts him as well, so while I agree BF may help with odds, it's absolutely no guarantee.

It makes it very difficult for me to say whether I am planning to breastfeed when/if DH and I have our own. Which is hard to admit considering how much I enjoyed BF my son.
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#64 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 04:27 PM
 
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I'm rather sad that people don't see the offensiveness in this...just look at the title of the thread. Why can't we realize that even though we think (or know) what we do is best, that all moms love their children more than anything and try to do what's best for their children? Why be so rude and indignent about their choices? No, it's not the healthiest choice. But really, I still don't see the good in this argument at all. Ask this to a room full of formula feeders, and see what the response would be. Of course a board full of lactivists seems to think it's a good idea, but I promise--this approach would never make any kind of change. The change needs to come before a child is even born--have midwives, OBs, whoever it is, educate a mother on the benefits of breastfeeding, including the health benefits. Bashing someone elses choice (and believe it or not, that's what this is), does nothing but make you seem rude and holier than thou and turn people off from the point you're trying to make. Believe me--I know this from personal experience. Opinions are much better received when done in a loving way.
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#65 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 04:38 PM
 
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I'm rather sad that people don't see the offensiveness in this...just look at the title of the thread. Why can't we realize that even though we think (or know) what we do is best, that all moms love their children more than anything and try to do what's best for their children? Why be so rude and indignent about their choices? No, it's not the healthiest choice. But really, I still don't see the good in this argument at all. Ask this to a room full of formula feeders, and see what the response would be. Of course a board full of lactivists seems to think it's a good idea, but I promise--this approach would never make any kind of change. The change needs to come before a child is even born--have midwives, OBs, whoever it is, educate a mother on the benefits of breastfeeding, including the health benefits. Bashing someone elses choice (and believe it or not, that's what this is), does nothing but make you seem rude and holier than thou and turn people off from the point you're trying to make. Believe me--I know this from personal experience. Opinions are much better received when done in a loving way.

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#66 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 05:19 PM
 
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I donated over 300oz to my state milk bank. It's a huge pain in the ass and let's not forget that not all women respond to a pump, so I don't see your point.



Exactly.
I guess I was just curious since I know many women consider formula to be the 4th best. A donor mom's milk is better than formula according to that WHO list, and I know that there is a lack of donations for moms who can't feed their child breast milk.

My thoughts are that if lactivists think that women shouldn't use formula because of all the risks involved and that donor milk is better, doesn't part of being a lactivist mean you're donating milk if you can pump and afford to?
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#67 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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The way I see it most of the world presents breast or bottle feeding as equal - you know like choosing coke or pepsi - what's the difference. To be honest I think a lot of women don't give it much thought until the last minute when without information and support in place before the birth thinks can quickly get out of hand and they end up bottle feeding with out really getting to make an informed choice. I can think of five new moms in the past month. 3 had c-sections (one planned and two emergency) none ended up breast feeding the other two were unable to nurse due to breast reduction surgery. So sad.
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#68 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 06:50 PM
 
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I'm rather sad that people don't see the offensiveness in this...just look at the title of the thread. Why can't we realize that even though we think (or know) what we do is best, that all moms love their children more than anything and try to do what's best for their children? Why be so rude and indignent about their choices? No, it's not the healthiest choice. But really, I still don't see the good in this argument at all. Ask this to a room full of formula feeders, and see what the response would be. Of course a board full of lactivists seems to think it's a good idea, but I promise--this approach would never make any kind of change. The change needs to come before a child is even born--have midwives, OBs, whoever it is, educate a mother on the benefits of breastfeeding, including the health benefits. Bashing someone elses choice (and believe it or not, that's what this is), does nothing but make you seem rude and holier than thou and turn people off from the point you're trying to make. Believe me--I know this from personal experience. Opinions are much better received when done in a loving way.
While I wish I could back you up on that statement it simply isn't true i know many, many Mom's who simply do what is most convenient for THEMSELVES and do this while knowing they are not giving their children the best, most of them with a few rare exceptions felt that obligation, not Love, was the primary emotion of Motherhood. This is from their own mouths. What do you say to a Women who tells you that she knows fully how Breastfeeding is better for her child but can't do it because she needs the freedom to get her nails done every week and her weekly massage. I know only one Mom who formula fed by choice because she had to go back to work, the rest formula fed by choice because they were not willing to give of themselves to their own child. I am the only person i know who EBF at all. Most Women I know FF because of purely selfish reasons and will tell you such with no guilt. I cannot belive I am the only one who has experianced this. I am not by any means trying to say all FFing Mom's have this attitude, I do live in a very strange place , nor do I think presenting formula as dangerous is a great plan either.. My point being that clearly "breast is best" isn't working too well. A change in language is nescessary I think.

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#69 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 07:02 PM
 
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"The change needs to come before a child is even born--have midwives, OBs, whoever it is, educate a mother on the benefits of breastfeeding, including the health benefits."

This is what the OP was talking about when she started the thread, not bashing formula feeding moms. I don't think anyone has bashed FF's. This does not seem to take place at all is most situations. The above sentence would only need to be changed to "including the risks of formula" and we'd all be in agreement. No one has suggested we confront women who are already FF and tell them the are putting thier child at risk. This is about educating women before their baby is born. That is part of a health providers job. If, while pregnant, a doctor asked what you planned to feed the baby and you said formula. The doctor should give you all the information he/she has on the subject of infant feeding including the risks of formula.
As many have stated, this is not a scare tactic but simple facts. Why is the benefits of breastfeeding not offensive, but the risks of formula is? This information is the same. When presented as the risks, though, it puts BF as the norm. When presented as the benefits it puts formula as the norm. It seems many of you don't see the importance of putting breastfeeding as the norm. Of course as other posters have said this is but a small part of lactivism. More support is absolutely necessary. But if we can get health care providers on board with the risks of formula in the first place maybe they will realize the importance of following up that information with support.
To the PP talking about milk donations: many of us would love to donate our milk, but the system currently in place makes that very difficult. Storage, shipping costs, ect. Once again if it were common knowledge that babies NEED human milk maybe all hospitals would have a milk bank making it easier and cheaper for moms to donate and recieve milk locally.
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#70 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 07:05 PM
 
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I would love to donate milk if I could ever get DS away from th boob long enough to pump LOL. He is a non stop nurser.

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#71 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 07:21 PM
 
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This business about "making moms feel guilty" is crazy talk. Nobody can make another person feel guilty. Guilt is an internal response to a personal choice.

The only person who should feel guilty about not BF is the person who knows the facts about BF and has the ability (in all respects) to do it -- but chooses not to.
:

Has everyone actually read Diane Weissinger's article titled Watch Your Language?

http://www.motherchronicle.com/watchyourlanguage.html

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We must not let inverted phrasing by the media and by our peers go unchallenged. When we fail to describe the hazards of artificial feeding, we deprive mothers of crucial decision-making information. The mother having difficulty with breastfeeding may not seek help just to achieve a "special bonus;" but she may clamor for help if she knows how much she and her baby stand to lose. She is less likely to use artificial milk just "to get him used to a bottle" if she knows that the contents of that bottle cause harm.
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#72 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 07:21 PM
 
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I haven't read all the replies so forgive me if this already been said.

People don't care. The society as a whole does not care. I know that sounds harsh but think of it this way. If society really cared about health issues, we would eat healthier. Fast food, junk food, alcohol, cigarettes, drugs would not exist if we cared. The society poisons themselves over and over with unhealthy foods and substances. (Formula is not poison).

And its hard for people to care when the affects are not always immediate. If a mother or FFed baby gets breast cancer 20-40 years later they don't think, if only I had/was BFed.
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#73 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 08:12 PM
 
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I'm not sure that the "FF to get maincures" would be moved by any argument however compelling.

Fortunately, I don't know a single person like that personally though I'm sure they exist. My SIL had to FF because she was on chemo for breast cancer (her ds was also induced at 35 weeks so she could start) She's the only person I know who chose to FF right from the get go.
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#74 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 08:59 PM
 
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And that is an example of a person who has to use formula. Like I said it may be that i live in a weird place but no one but me and maybe one other person I know EBF if they do at all they supplement by choice and tend to wean by 6 weeks. The WIC ladies lean over the desk and tell me that I am their only EBF client who nurses past the 2nd month. I think a cultural change in parenting styles at the most basic levels needs to happen before BF rates go up and stay up. See the problem I think is the past couple of generations attitudes toward children in general as a nescessary evil rather than a joy and gift (as I see it). Part of this is the abstinence only sex ed that teaches how your life will be ruined if you choose to have sex because you will become pregnant and kids are so much of a hassle, cost too much etc. etc. have seriously screwed with western parents ability to nurture our kids and then consumerism tells us that infant care must be purchased (formula) in order to show our love and affection and that milk from the breast is not good enough because it is free. I'll never understand why so many of my fellow peers have been spoiled and neglected at the same time and why on Earth they would want to perpetuate this onto their own kids and yet they do in spades. It is terrible to be the only one I know who IRL who actually like their kids.

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#75 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 09:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post
I am curious how many women on here donate their milk to women who can't breastfeed?
I do. But if breastfeeding is a "luxury" in our society, how much more so is pumping to donate? It takes time, a pump, someone helping to care for the other little ones, storage space, money to be tested, money to ship the milk... it all comes down to the same lack of respect our society has for breastfeeding.

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#76 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 09:34 PM
 
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I'm currently reading James Akre's The Problem With Breastfeeding, which, despite its misleading/annoying title, is a nice little book about precisely this problem: how (and WHY) to change broad public awareness to understand that breastfeeding is normal and that non-emergency routine formula-feeding is risky.

He makes a fairly convincing globally-oriented argument that this mainstream awareness of the risks of non-emergency routine formula use is the critical piece of the equation for better (i.e. closer to meeting WHO recommendations) breastfeeding rates. In other words, this is a problem of culture -- that realm of generally accepted assumptions, unspoken rules, mainstream taken-for-granted behaviors.

It is frustrating to see such a dead-on pertinent lactivist question be raised only to be immediately and thoroughly diverted into the same-old same-old non sequitors and re-spin derived, consciously or not, from formula marketing frames and buzzwords. "Guilt" and "choice" and so on. The OP's question was about doctors informing their pregnant and newly postpartum patients about the risks of unnecessary formula use. Doctors. Not the busybody lady in the food court, not the know-it-all MIL or neighbor. Doctors, whose business generally is considered to be the health of their patients. Doctors, whose business generally is NOT considered to be preventing the onset of "guilty feelings" in their patients.

Would a set lecture delivered by a doctor to each pregnant woman in this country improve breastfeeding rates? By itself, probably not. But it would be a step in the right direction, especially if it was accompanied by getting the formula marketing OUT of those same doctor's offices and out of the hospital maternity wards. And to have the full power and righteous authority of the medical establishment 100% behind breastfeeding instead of the weak-kneed lip service that is more typical of that profession would also go a long ways towards convincing the politicians and CEOs and insurance companies that protecting, promoting, and supporting breastfeeding is a smart investment of capital -- financial, social, and political.

But nooooooo. Instead we repeat here ad nauseum the same downwardly spiraling did-too did-not "what about my cousin Millie" discussion that leads us time and again into the terrain of irreconcilable anecdotes describing personal "knowledge" with zero consideration for how one's personal life, including one's beliefs, choices, and values, is shaped by larger historical, political, economic, and cultural forces.

Blech. Maybe I'm just grumpy from grading too many bad term papers. But this is frustrating.
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#77 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 09:40 PM
 
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I'm rather sad that people don't see the offensiveness in this...just look at the title of the thread.
So should we sacrifice the truth because it might be offensive? Why don't all mothers deserve ALL the facts before they make the choice to use formula? Why do formula companies get to advertise and make all sorts of hyperbolic statements, but when the facts are presented, they're "offensive"? I honestly don't understand this.

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The change needs to come before a child is even born--have midwives, OBs, whoever it is, educate a mother on the benefits of breastfeeding, including the health benefits. Bashing someone elses choice (and believe it or not, that's what this is), does nothing but make you seem rude and holier than thou and turn people off from the point you're trying to make.
I am pretty sure that not one person on this thread has talked about walking into a room full of formula-feeding mothers and spouting abuse with them. Rather, we have talked about the change coming from doctors, midwives, etc.
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Opinions are much better received when done in a loving way.
I would agree with this, but we're not talking about opinions, we're talking about facts. And I think even facts need to be presented with love. But they need to be presented.

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#78 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 09:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Skimama36
It makes it very difficult for me to say whether I am planning to breastfeed when/if DH and I have our own.
I hope you do. I always fear that discussions like this will actually turn someone the other way. Breastfeeding truly IS the biological norm and what a newborn baby's body expects. Reading about the changes to gut flora, especially in the early days/weeks of development, sometimes permanent changes, really drives home what happens when we give artificial milk to infants.

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Blech. Maybe I'm just grumpy from grading too many bad term papers. But this is frustrating.
No, it is frustrating But the point is, a doctor lecturing about the *dangers* of something so widely accepted to be safe, regardless of the truth or reality behind it, is not going to be as effective as a fresh new approach that makes someone perk up and listen. First off, we have to actually have HCPs who even understand bf'ing! How many MDs breastfeed or have wives who breastfed? I'd wager the rate isn't too much higher than average. And the entire setup of medicalized birth in mostly non-bf friendly hospitals is already a huge strike against success. We need to be sending moms home from the hospital with lists of local IBCLCs so they know who to call in the middle of the night when their baby is screaming at the breast. Instead we're sending them home with formula, bottles, and instructions not to nurse more than once every 3 hours, but that if the baby isn't eating at least that much, they're going to starve to death and we MUST use formula.

It's soooo complicated. We can't just begin lecturing people about dangers of something that doesn't appear dangerous at all. It has to start from the top down, with legislators and CEOs and Deans of universities and major medical associations. And for that to happen, there has to be public pressure. Which is the catch 22, because for public pressure to happen, there has to be a public that gives a crap about bf'ing. Right now, that's a minority. Education has to happen, early, often, and straightforward- start with health classes in schools, continue with tons of media and research, and just keep putting it out there more and more.

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#79 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 10:53 PM
 
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BTW, the people who were offended were the formula company representatives that had the campaign killed. It is about money - not about the health and well-being of the babies.
This is true.

And, FWIW, as a formula-feeding lactivist, I'm totally o.k. with doctors telling all their pregnant and postpartum patients about the risks of not breastfeeding (if you focus on formula being bad, some moms, not understanding the point of the speech, might use a far inferior substitute for breastmilk, like rice cereal or other solids). I wish doctors would give all their patients this information as a matter of course, unsolicited. I've never had a doctor give me a speech about anything, but I guess it's easier (psychologically) on some doctors to give a teenager a speech than an adult. However, I think that since doctors receive perks and incentives (of varying forms -- like paid trips to other locations to go to conferences and such) whenever a patient of theirs chooses formula, they aren't very motivated to convince their patients to breastfeed.
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#80 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 11:51 PM
 
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It is frustrating to see such a dead-on pertinent lactivist question be raised only to be immediately and thoroughly diverted into the same-old same-old non sequitors and re-spin derived, consciously or not, from formula marketing frames and buzzwords. "Guilt" and "choice" and so on. The OP's question was about doctors informing their pregnant and newly postpartum patients about the risks of unnecessary formula use. Doctors. Not the busybody lady in the food court, not the know-it-all MIL or neighbor. Doctors, whose business generally is considered to be the health of their patients. Doctors, whose business generally is NOT considered to be preventing the onset of "guilty feelings" in their patients.

Would a set lecture delivered by a doctor to each pregnant woman in this country improve breastfeeding rates? By itself, probably not. But it would be a step in the right direction, especially if it was accompanied by getting the formula marketing OUT of those same doctor's offices and out of the hospital maternity wards. And to have the full power and righteous authority of the medical establishment 100% behind breastfeeding instead of the weak-kneed lip service that is more typical of that profession would also go a long ways towards convincing the politicians and CEOs and insurance companies that protecting, promoting, and supporting breastfeeding is a smart investment of capital -- financial, social, and political.

But nooooooo. Instead we repeat here ad nauseum the same downwardly spiraling did-too did-not "what about my cousin Millie" discussion that leads us time and again into the terrain of irreconcilable anecdotes describing personal "knowledge" with zero consideration for how one's personal life, including one's beliefs, choices, and values, is shaped by larger historical, political, economic, and cultural forces.
Yes yes yes! Beautifully said.
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#81 of 209 Old 12-11-2007, 11:53 PM
 
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I am pretty sure that not one person on this thread has talked about walking into a room full of formula-feeding mothers and spouting abuse with them. Rather, we have talked about the change coming from doctors, midwives, etc.

I would agree with this, but we're not talking about opinions, we're talking about facts. And I think even facts need to be presented with love. But they need to be presented.
Yes! ITA.
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#82 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:37 AM
 
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I would agree with this, but we're not talking about opinions, we're talking about facts. And I think even facts need to be presented with love. But they need to be presented.
It's all about the presentation. Which do you think would have more of a positive impact on a FFing mother?

"BFing can increase a your child's IQ," or "FFing is going to lower your child's IQ."

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#83 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:41 AM
 
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It's all about the presentation. Which do you think would have more of a positive impact on a FFing mother?

"BFing can increase a your child's IQ," or "FFing is going to lower your child's IQ."
Neither, actually. But I think laying out all the risks of formula feeding to a mother before she chooses between breastmilk or formula could make a huge difference.

FWIW, I don't believe either of those statements are true.

Breastfeeding doesn't increase a child's IQ. A breastfed child's IQ is the norm.

Formula feeding doesn't lower a child's IQ. But a child who is fed formula will not reach their full normative potential.

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#84 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:47 AM
 
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I would agree with this, but we're not talking about opinions, we're talking about facts. And I think even facts need to be presented with love. But they need to be presented.
But, the FACT is that formula is not dangerous. It is not as healthy as breastmilk but it is not dangerous. And statements like this

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But a child who is fed formula will not reach their full normative potential.
just serve to be divisive and do nothing to further the cause.

I knew nothing about breastfeeding before my first child was born. I fell into extended breastfeeding by accident. What would have helped to know more and to plan to nurse as long as possible right from the start would have been my OB talking about it as the best choice right from the beginning instead of giving me formula samples and free diaper bags. The rhetoric spouted in this thread about formula babies having lower IQs and formula being dangerous angers me and I am a breastfeeder. I also volunteer for a pro breastfeeding organization that assists moms in feeding their babies. We have LCs to help and low cost and free pumps to rent and all sorts of supplies and ways to help moms and encourage nursing. Even then, with all that help, there are still some who cannot or do not breastfeed. To tell them their children are going to be dumb because of that is mean and untrue. To tell them they are doing something dangerous is also false. And, it does nothing to help them to breastfeed the next baby. Nothing.
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#85 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:50 AM
 
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I posted a link earlier that stated, factually and statistically, the risks of formula feeding. I'm not sure how those facts can be interpreted as anything other than they are.

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#86 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:52 AM
 
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To clarify, the problem is with the loaded language. You put people off with loaded language like "dangerous" and "lower IQ" but you bring people in with words like "benefitial" and "natural." It would do better to the cause to use the latter two when referring to Bfing rather than the first two when referring to formula.


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#87 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:54 AM
 
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Neither, actually. But I think laying out all the risks of formula feeding to a mother before she chooses between breastmilk or formula could make a huge difference.

FWIW, I don't believe either of those statements are true.

Breastfeeding doesn't increase a child's IQ. A breastfed child's IQ is the norm.

Formula feeding doesn't lower a child's IQ. But a child who is fed formula will not reach their full normative potential.
Just what I was going to say.

I don't think facts should be sugarcoated. Even if unpleasent to the intended audiance. Sure, be nice...but the point needs to be made. The point can be lost with TOO MANY nicities.

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#88 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:55 AM
 
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Heck, I just tell people I was back to pre pg weight 3 weeks pp, a fact which I attribute to BF'ing. That's a big selling point for some!

The fact that it costs NOTHING, that's another biggie for others.

Practicality here. Future, seemingly theoretical, statistical risks aside.
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#89 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 12:57 AM
 
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To clarify, the problem is with the loaded language. You put people off with loaded language like "dangerous" and "lower IQ" but you bring people in with words like "benefitial" and "natural." It would do better to the cause to use the latter two when referring to Bfing rather than the first two when referring to formula.


You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!
I think the point trying to be made here though is babies aren't "benefited" by BM, cuz it's nothing above the norm.

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#90 of 209 Old 12-12-2007, 01:10 AM
 
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I posted a link earlier that stated, factually and statistically, the risks of formula feeding. I'm not sure how those facts can be interpreted as anything other than they are.
You all can present it the way you want to. I am on your side when it comes to the idea that breastfeeding is best. Where I disagree is how to convert others. I can guarantee you that if you walk up to a pregnant woman who is planning to formula feed and tell her she is not going to have as smart a child because of the formula and that formula feeding is going to increase her child's risk of death, she is going to be so put off she will just stop listening to you.

If you talk to her OB and train that person to talk to the mom-to-be about the benefits of breastfeeding to both mom and baby, you will win more breastfeeders that way. If you sit down with that mom and chat about how breastfeeding worked for you and all the reasons you like it, all the reasons it is great for babies, then you will win converts. If you talk about how you lose baby weight faster, you lower your risk of breast cancer, you spend far less money, etc, you will win more converts. But, I do think that the OBs are the key. They need to talk to moms a lot more about breastfeeding and stop giving out those dang formula samples.
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