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#121 of 146 Old 01-22-2008, 05:10 PM
 
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totally OT but

i love that sleepsack thingy. i have one and it is soooo nice and warm and comfy.

but it's definitely not for nursing, as if you try to open it to latch on, your entire chest and not just one side or the other, will be exposed. and then you get :
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#122 of 146 Old 01-22-2008, 10:59 PM
 
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I am still at MDC, right??

Just checking...

No one seems to have mentioned yet that many states use the wording "anywhere that the mother has the right to be" is somewhere she may nurse her baby.

So that in essence, she does have the right to nurse her LO in someone else's home, unless they are revoking her right to be there (kicking her out).

Meat eating and smoking are not protected by the same legal wording.
There are plenty of things one can do legally--such as suing relatives when they haven't paid back loans on time--that aren't worth the hassle.

Also, the brother and his fiancee weren't good enough people to be educated. If they were halfway sensible, trying to educate would've been frustrating but worth it. As it was there would have been a huge stressful confrontation and they would've been just as ignorant afterwards, I think avoiding exposing your baby to that situation made sense.

Now, a place like a restaurant, that's a different story. There the fight is worth it because the fight's also for all the other mamas who might go to that restaurant with their babies.

ETA: mind you, I do love the idea of a nurse-in at their house, but it'd be hard to get them to invite a bunch of nursing moms over.
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#123 of 146 Old 01-22-2008, 11:24 PM
 
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There are plenty of things one can do legally--such as suing relatives when they haven't paid back loans on time--that aren't worth the hassle.

Also, the brother and his fiancee weren't good enough people to be educated. If they were halfway sensible, trying to educate would've been frustrating but worth it. As it was there would have been a huge stressful confrontation and they would've been just as ignorant afterwards, I think avoiding exposing your baby to that situation made sense.

Now, a place like a restaurant, that's a different story. There the fight is worth it because the fight's also for all the other mamas who might go to that restaurant with their babies.

ETA: mind you, I do love the idea of a nurse-in at their house, but it'd be hard to get them to invite a bunch of nursing moms over.
I'm not saying that I would have fought to nurse there; just that I disagree with Meg Murray and other posters who have argued that she didn't have a right to nurse her baby in someone else's home.

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#124 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 12:00 AM
 
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To the OP: Do what feels right to you.
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#125 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 12:04 AM
 
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I'm not saying that I would have fought to nurse there; just that I disagree with Meg Murray and other posters who have argued that she didn't have a right to nurse her baby in someone else's home.
Gotcha.
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#126 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 12:08 AM
 
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The idea that one should respect the desires of the person in home they are visiting doesn't necessarily have to be based on private property and "rights". In my mind it's based on practicality, common sense and courtesy.

If I'm in someone else's home and they're doing something I don't like, I can go home. If I'm in their home and I'm doing something they don't like, but I refuse to stop doing it and refuse to leave, where are they going to go???

If we lived in some kind of hunter-gatherer culture where there was very little individual property, they could just pick up their bedroll and go sleep in another part of the common area everyone shared. In that case my sitting on their bedroll and refusing to move would be more comparable.

In any case, I think it is extremely rude and inconsiderate of me to subject another person to an uncomfortable situation I'm forcing them to remain in just because I think I have the "right" to do whatever I want wherever I want to do it.

In any situation where I'm making someone uncomfortable, and it's far easier for me to change what I'm doing or go somewhere else than it would be for them to leave the situation, I would at least make an effort within reason to adjust my own actions to accommodate their comfort. It wouldn't matter who "owned" the place.

I don't think I'm the most important person on earth, and therefore in a situation where two people's desires or needs are coming into conflict, both people's needs and desires should be considered unless there is some kind of emergency or dire need on one side and not on the other.

This whole "I don't have to consider anyone else's comfort level even IN THEIR OWN HOME because breastfeeding is sacred and therefore I should be able to do it HOWEVER I want any time I want" stems from the basic idea that my right to not have to cover my baby or move to a different spot in the room or house while nursing is more important than their right not to be cornered in an uncomfortable (for them) situation they can't escape.

Again, nursing the baby is a need. Nursing the baby in direct view of someone who is uncomfortable when the mom could easily provide some sort of visual barrier or reposition herself is (at least in the majority of situations) a preference, not a need.

If it is not terribly difficult for her to do so, I think the mom should set aside her preference to accommodate the greater need of the person whose home she is in, since they have nowhere else to go and she does.

Well said! I agree 100%.
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#127 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 12:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tashaharney View Post
totally OT but

i love that sleepsack thingy. i have one and it is soooo nice and warm and comfy.

but it's definitely not for nursing, as if you try to open it to latch on, your entire chest and not just one side or the other, will be exposed. and then you get :
No, I meant she should offer it to the SIL to wear when she eats.

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#128 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:06 AM
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I can't believe 'don't nurse your baby in my home' is being defended on here.
I can't believe "Don't respect other people's rights in their own home" is being defended ANYWHERE.
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#129 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:13 AM
 
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I can't believe 'don't nurse your baby in my home' is being defended on here.
I can't either! There will always be a sliding scale in any movement, even lactivism.
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#130 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post

In any case, I think it is extremely rude and inconsiderate of me to subject another person to an uncomfortable situation I'm forcing them to remain in just because I think I have the "right" to do whatever I want wherever I want to do it.
Yes indeed. One of the attitudes that has impaired the spread of breastfeeding and the general acceptance of breastfeeding is precisely the holier-than-thou attitude you've put your finger on here: the idea that one's own desires to "do whatever I want wherever I want" supersedes anyone else's right to control what happens in their own house.

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In any situation where I'm making someone uncomfortable, and it's far easier for me to change what I'm doing or go somewhere else than it would be for them to leave the situation, I would at least make an effort within reason to adjust my own actions to accommodate their comfort. It wouldn't matter who "owned" the place.
But see, that reasoning makes no sense if you believe that you're supremely important, or at least that your desires outweigh those of others. That is, until they attempt to do something that you find objectionable in your house. Then, of course, the reaction would be quite different.
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I don't think I'm the most important person on earth, and therefore in a situation where two people's desires or needs are coming into conflict, both people's needs and desires should be considered unless there is some kind of emergency or dire need on one side and not on the other.
Agreed -- and the routine feeding of a baby, particularly when all the OP had to do was cover up that routine feeding or go elsewhere, not even skip that feeding (as some people implied) or let her baby die of starvation (as was suggested by previous posters) -- is certainly not "dire need" by anyone's estimation. Sorry, anyone's reasonable estimation.
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This whole "I don't have to consider anyone else's comfort level even IN THEIR OWN HOME because breastfeeding is sacred and therefore I should be able to do it HOWEVER I want any time I want" stems from the basic idea that my right to not have to cover my baby or move to a different spot in the room or house while nursing is more important than their right not to be cornered in an uncomfortable (for them) situation they can't escape.
Well said.
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Again, nursing the baby is a need. Nursing the baby in direct view of someone who is uncomfortable when the mom could easily provide some sort of visual barrier or reposition herself is (at least in the majority of situations) a preference, not a need.

If it is not terribly difficult for her to do so, I think the mom should set aside her preference to accommodate the greater need of the person whose home she is in, since they have nowhere else to go and she does.
Awesome. You said it.
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#131 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:40 AM
 
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Yes indeed. One of the attitudes that has impaired the spread of breastfeeding and the general acceptance of breastfeeding is precisely the holier-than-thou attitude you've put your finger on here: the idea that one's own desires to "do whatever I want wherever I want" supersedes anyone else's right to control what happens in their own house.
just wanted to reiterate that we are talking about FEEDING a BABY.

not "doing whatever i want wherever i want."



why should the expectation be placed on the nursing mom to accommodate everyone else? if you're offended and your eyes and legs work, either look away or walk away. why force YOUR objection on a mother who is just trying to care for her child? is it because you feel like you have the power and control to do so if she happens to be sitting on YOUR couch?
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#132 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 10:50 AM
 
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She wasn't asked to cover slightly or change positions. She was rudely asked to cover the whole baby, then told that breastfeeding is inappropriate!
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#133 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 11:40 AM
 
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Agreed -- and the routine feeding of a baby, particularly when all the OP had to do was cover up that routine feeding or go elsewhere, not even skip that feeding (as some people implied) or let her baby die of starvation (as was suggested by previous posters) -- is certainly not "dire need" by anyone's estimation. Sorry, anyone's reasonable estimation.


Awesome. You said it.



I can't believe that someone would call those views "awesome" on this board.

The OP happened to be covered. Actual nipple to mouth contact was not visible. The hostess wanted the baby covered head to toe so that the OP merely looked fat and not that there was a baby breastfeeding under that shirt. So it is not always the "view" that is "offensive", but the mere knowledge that breastfeeding is occurring.

The SIL was not reasonable.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#134 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 11:59 AM
 
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I can't believe "Don't respect other people's rights in their own home" is being defended ANYWHERE.
are you unaware of the right that women have to breastfeed anywhere that they are in most states?

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#135 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 12:49 PM
 
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I believe that once you INVITE a mother and her nursling into your home, you can no longer fall back on the ludicrious assumptions of property rights to establish restrictive boundaries that could result in depriving a nursling of the right to eat.

No one has the right to create an environment that is hostile to children even if it is in their own home. The continued reliance on "rights" to defend the practices of individuals who are creating hostile environments for women and children is simplistic and really troubling to me.

Edited to say that I think "ludicrous" may be misplaced up there, BUT rights to privacy/property are pretty ludicrous if it means depriving a nursling of the right to eat.
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#136 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 01:48 PM
 
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I am still at MDC, right??

Just checking...

No one seems to have mentioned yet that many states use the wording "anywhere that the mother has the right to be" is somewhere she may nurse her baby.

So that in essence, she does have the right to nurse her LO in someone else's home, unless they are revoking her right to be there (kicking her out).

Meat eating and smoking are not protected by the same legal wording.
It is not a right to be in someone else's home. It is a privilege. The laws also generally apply to public places, not private residences. You have the right to be in public places.
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#137 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:02 PM
 
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It is not a right to be in someone else's home. It is a privilege. The laws also generally apply to public places, not private residences. You have the right to be in public places.
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i basically give up.. i cant believe that i am having this convo on MDC.

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#139 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:35 PM
 
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i basically give up.. i cant believe that i am having this convo on MDC.
i haven't been in the conversation, mostly reading, but i totally agree.
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#140 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:42 PM
 
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It is not a right to be in someone else's home. It is a privilege. The laws also generally apply to public places, not private residences. You have the right to be in public places.
Exactly!!
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#141 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 02:59 PM
 
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It is not a right to be in someone else's home. It is a privilege. The laws also generally apply to public places, not private residences. You have the right to be in public places.
And most stores and restaurants are privately owned. Slippery slope argument you're making --- lawyers can and have made similar defenses for civil rights violations being 'legal' in a privately owned establishment.

The bottom line:
a. Breastfeeding is recommended for a *minimum* of the first year of an infant's life, due to the risk factors that NOT breastfeeding introduces for both mothers and their infants.

2. Every major medical or health organization has issued some sort of statement to the above effect (and some have a *minimum* of two years, not one).

3. If a mother (whether she's known to be nursing or not) is invited into one's home, one should expect that said mother will need to feed her child while she's there. If you know she nurses, you should realize she may need to nurse her child while there. If you don't want that, don't invite her. Period.

4. Once she's there, to tell her she can't nurse is rude and ill-informed. The mother usually explains the reasons that bf is right for her/child, and in fact ALL infants. For a host(ess) to refuse is similar to a host(ess) refusing to allow a diabetic to check their blood insulin; or refusing to allow a 4 year old to use the bathroom.

5. Even the "Miss Manners" type books note that an infant under the age of 1 should be considered the same as the mother in terms of invitations to events etc.

The persons being rude are the host(esses) who are trying to forbid a mother from feeding her child. OR who expect the mother to go to great lengths to 'hide' a perfectly normal, healthy, and desirable situation (desirable as in "medically recommended"

To clarify for those who disagree -- I sincerely doubt that any of the posters who are arguing that mothers should be able to nurse anywhere they or their babies have a right to be, are arguing that to do so, one must remove all their clothing and do a lap dance on the hostess' lap. These situations usually go down with the bf mother trying desperately to explain her position and mend fences politely while holding her ground. While being told that she is disgusting, reprehensible, and possibly permanently damaging her child while offending everyone on the planet.

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#142 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 03:02 PM
 
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The OP's SIL may in fact have a "legal" right to her "private property rights", whatever that means, but it was still rude and disprespectful for her to invite a nursing pair and expect them to follow HER guidelines about breastfeeding. JMHO.
How would you feel if YOU (generic) were nursing at someone's house and was asked to cover more than is comfortable for you? I mean really, cover the whole BABY! Seriously! It implies that there is something shameful to be hidden about breastfeeding and THAT thought is the thought that is the real issue here. Its not about PROPERTY RIGHTS! Its about her SIL passing judgement on the OP and then pushing her beliefs about breastfeeding onto the nursing mother. Who cares if they were in her house or the park! The SIL put her own uncomfortable feelings about breastfeeding in front of the feelings of the nursing mother and her child who were so plainly doing something NORMAL! FEEDING A BABY! Whether or not she has the right to ask her to cover up in her own house is BESIDE THE POINT!
I, too can't believe this is being debated to this extent.
The OP came here for support because she was mistreated by another human being, her feelings were hurt, and she needed to vent. I am willing to bet she didn't start this thread to spark the debate we have now. I have been following this thread since the beginning and I just want to cry. Why is breastfeeding seen as such a shameful thing we would be asked to COVER UP the fact that we are feeding our children the way nature intended! It is EASIER for the person feeling uncomfortable to look away or pick up their knitting and distract themselves than it is to pick on a new nursing mom who is already probably sleep deprived, emotional, and already GIVING so much of herself to the baby! Motherhood is a SACRED thing, and I am willing to defend it to make sure it stays that way.
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#143 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 03:04 PM
 
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The OP's SIL may in fact have a "legal" right to her "private property rights", whatever that means, but it was still rude and disprespectful for her to invite a nursing pair and expect them to follow HER guidelines about breastfeeding. JMHO.
How would you feel if YOU (generic) were nursing at someone's house and was asked to cover more than is comfortable for you? I mean really, cover the whole BABY! Seriously! It implies that there is something shameful to be hidden about breastfeeding and THAT thought is the thought that is the real issue here. Its not about PROPERTY RIGHTS! Its about her SIL passing judgement on the OP and then pushing her beliefs about breastfeeding onto the nursing mother. Who cares if they were in her house or the park! The SIL put her own uncomfortable feelings about breastfeeding in front of the feelings of the nursing mother and her child who were so plainly doing something NORMAL! FEEDING A BABY! Whether or not she has the right to ask her to cover up in her own house is BESIDE THE POINT!
I, too can't believe this is being debated to this extent.
The OP came here for support because she was mistreated by another human being, her feelings were hurt, and she needed to vent. I am willing to bet she didn't start this thread to spark the debate we have now. I have been following this thread since the beginning and I just want to cry. Why is breastfeeding seen as such a shameful thing we would be asked to COVER UP the fact that we are feeding our children the way nature intended! It is EASIER for the person feeling uncomfortable to look away or pick up their knitting and distract themselves than it is to pick on a new nursing mom who is already probably sleep deprived, emotional, and already GIVING so much of herself to the baby! Motherhood is a SACRED thing, and I am willing to defend it to make sure it stays that way.
apparently motherhood and feeding a baby is only sacred when it isnt impeding on someone else's rights or someone else home...

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#144 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 03:20 PM
 
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Um, who on earth is arguing that the brother and SIL were anything other than boorish louts with manners that would be deemed crass by ravening sharks?

I thought the issue here was whether the OP was right to leave instead of fighting them. It looks like a debate between the two ideas:
1. Feeding a baby is a right and it is vital that it is recognized as normal and appropriate in all situations and therefore you must not back down and leave when someone says not to nurse in their home.

2. Feeding a baby is a right and it is vital that is recognized as normal and appropriate in all situations, but people who are obsessive about it being done in their home aren't rational enough to be educated and you should leave them to their petty paranoia and not go back until they show signs of having a brain.

No one is defending the UA violations who made the OP leave. We're defending her choice to leave.
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#145 of 146 Old 01-23-2008, 03:57 PM
 
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I'm sorry, maybe I should reread this thread. (but its long and I am not going to!) Maybe I am reading too much between the lines.
I thought the OP's sister in law asked her to cover the whole baby, not that she asked her to leave. I thought it was the OP's choice to leave. I probably would have done the same thing, not because I respected her "property rights" but because I would have felt so hurt and bewildered that a future family member was treating me so unfairly. In fact, I probably would have tried to have a reasonable conversation with her about bf-ing first, then left crying with the baby still latched on the my breast if she wouldn't hear me out. I guess my point was that this story of an interaction between two human beings involving fear, anger, frustration, misunderstandings and hurt feelings has turned into a legal debate.
Whether or not she had the "right" to stay and continue nursing has more to do with the OP's comfort level than anything else. I personally would feel upset because the peaceful, nurturing environment I need to nurse in had been disrupted by the hostess herself and wouldn't WANT to subject my family to any more of her negative energy. BUT, if I was feeling super strong and fiery and had chose to stay and feed my baby anyways, that would be my choice and if she asked me to leave, fine, I would, as soon as the baby was done nursing. IF she took me to court for violating her private personal property rights (okay, again, reading between the lines again since this is now a legal debate) I don't know what the outcome would be. I sure hope if any of you all were on the jury, you'd see that the right of the child needing to eat and the right of the mother to dress and feed as she wishes as more important than the fact that the situation occured at the SIL's house.
Okay, flame away!
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