Could you be friends with someone who works for a formula company? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Artemnesia View Post
No I don't think it's a good substitute for breastmilk. Frankly I'm really shocked that so many posts in this forum defend the product. Formula use carries serious risks to both mother and child. Formula is neither the same as, nor just as good as, breastmilk. Therefore it is deficient, incomplete, and inferior. That's a statement of fact.

I think the mothers who had no choice (or maybe got formula thrown at them instead of help?) but to feed formula deserved a much, much better alternative. Denying the truth to make people feel better only helps to perpetuate the problem. Some might think it's helping or being diplomatic but I think it's part of the problem not the solution.

I'm really shocked by the fact that I have encountered so many posts that seem to be perpetuating the cultural myths that hinder rather than help to promote a breastfeeding culture. Very strange and disappointing.
What is strange is that you think one person who works at a formula company should be held responsible for changing and entire industry. This ideal you are describing sounds great, but we are so not even close to being there. And in the meantime, people need to work and support themselves and their families.

I find it strange and disappointing that people like you are unable to give people a break and have a little compassion and understanding that others are likely doing the best they can with their situation. Everyone you cross is fighting their own battles and just because YOUR battles are not ones they share, you find them unworthy of your friendship? Can't say I would be be too disappointed if you didn't want to be my friend. You don't come off as very kind or compassionate.

Having a strong belief does not require you to be so militant and angry. If you soften your delivery, more people might be open to your message.
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#62 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 03:32 PM
 
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I wouldn't have any issues being friends with someone who worked for a formula company, generally.

HOWEVER, I might have trouble with it if they worked in the marketing department. Hmmmm.
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#63 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 05:45 PM
 
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Having a strong belief does not require you to be so militant and angry. If you soften your delivery, more people might be open to your message.
This is what I was thinking - you will get more people to listen to your point of view if you are not so harsh and abrasive with your message.
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#64 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 07:51 PM
 
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#65 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 08:30 PM
 
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I could not be friends with someone who worked for a formula company, because it's representative of what they believe...if they thought the way I did, at all, there's no way they could work for the formula company, so it shows that we think very differently.

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#66 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 08:42 PM
 
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I could not be friends with someone who worked for a formula company, because it's representative of what they believe...if they thought the way I did, at all, there's no way they could work for the formula company, so it shows that we think very differently.
Maybe they work for the formula company so that the children who will not have the privelege of being fed breastmilk have an appropriate food to be fed.
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#67 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 09:47 PM
 
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I read through most of the posts and frankly, some of them made me sad. Many of you would not be friends of our familiy based on where we work having never met us. You see, I work for the government and my husband is head of a QA department at a meat plant. Yet we cloth diapered (in an area it's not popular in and my kids are not even close to being babies anymore), breastfed, made all my own baby/toddler food, and cook from scratch as much as possible. We recylcle, re-use, have a very small house to avoid being house poor and my boys (12 and 9) still request to sleep with me.
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#68 of 175 Old 07-27-2008, 10:01 PM
 
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I read through most of the posts and frankly, some of them made me sad. Many of you would not be friends of our familiy based on where we work having never met us. You see, I work for the government and my husband is head of a QA department at a meat plant. Yet we cloth diapered (in an area it's not popular in and my kids are not even close to being babies anymore), breastfed, made all my own baby/toddler food, and cook from scratch as much as possible. We recylcle, re-use, have a very small house to avoid being house poor and my boys (12 and 9) still request to sleep with me.
I would be your friend!
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#69 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, I certainly could. I however couldn't be friends with someone so judgemental that would consider not being my friend simply from where I worked. I have very good friends that do not see eye to eye with me on some things but also respect my views and opinions.
Ouch....that was kind of a hurtful comment ....I'm not sure why you got the feeling that I am judgemental more than just wondering about compatibility and what others would in the same situation...

If you read one of my previous posts it my qualms had to do less with being nitpicky about where she worked and more about whether or not she would be disrespectful of breastfeeding and/or responsible for formula marketing, which, IMO, would cross my moral boundaries to the point that friendship would be difficult. However, I found out she is in quality control to make sure that the formula is up to processing standards, and, it is a local formula company based out of VT. So, not perfect, however, I see it as a good opportunity to talk about breastfeeding and she has proven to be really nice and fun to hang out with.
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#70 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 02:17 AM
 
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This is the kind of hard core lactivist attitude towards formula and those that use it for whatever reason that turns people off. Many mama's here have no other choice than to feed their children formula, it is just a fact of life, and for you to say that formula is not an okay substitute for breastmilk is insulting.
Is there anyone here who would choose formula over breastmilk from bank or donor? I doubt it.

Thoughout the world many parents are forced to leave their children with relatives while they move to a different country and work. Is it insulting to say that it is an inferior situation than if they were able to stay with their kids? I think it would be offensive to pretend like it was all the same. This also applies to formula feeding.

If, because of the lack of accessible breast milk coupled with a situation preventing me from breastfeeding, I was forced to formula feed and I was told that it was an ok substitute, I would be deeply offended. It is not an ok substitue and no one should ever need to give that to their kids.

If you know someone who just can't quit smoking and does it around her kids, are you going to pretend like smoke is an ok substitute to oxygen? It does not matter that the parent has tried everything to quit or that the parent is just a victim of marketing or whatever.

I think that people just stop trying to not hurt people's feelings if they formula feed and tell them the truth. I would be devastated if I had no choice but to FF and I would expect everyone to be equally outraged at the lack of alternatives.

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#71 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 02:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
If you know someone who just can't quit smoking and does it around her kids, are you going to pretend like smoke is an ok substitute to oxygen? It does not matter that the parent has tried everything to quit or that the parent is just a victim of marketing or whatever.

I think that people just stop trying to not hurt people's feelings if they formula feed and tell them the truth. I would be devastated if I had no choice but to FF and I would expect everyone to be equally outraged at the lack of alternatives.
are you seriously saying that formula is to breastmilk as cigarette smoke is to oxygen? seriously???

that's not lactivism. that's just...a bit batty.

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#72 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 02:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
Is there anyone here who would choose formula over breastmilk from bank or donor? I doubt it.

Thoughout the world many parents are forced to leave their children with relatives while they move to a different country and work. Is it insulting to say that it is an inferior situation than if they were able to stay with their kids? I think it would be offensive to pretend like it was all the same. This also applies to formula feeding.

If, because of the lack of accessible breast milk coupled with a situation preventing me from breastfeeding, I was forced to formula feed and I was told that it was an ok substitute, I would be deeply offended. It is not an ok substitue and no one should ever need to give that to their kids.

If you know someone who just can't quit smoking and does it around her kids, are you going to pretend like smoke is an ok substitute to oxygen? It does not matter that the parent has tried everything to quit or that the parent is just a victim of marketing or whatever.

I think that people just stop trying to not hurt people's feelings if they formula feed and tell them the truth. I would be devastated if I had no choice but to FF and I would expect everyone to be equally outraged at the lack of alternatives.
Hard core attitudes like this do nothing to further the lactivist movement.

Comparing formula feeding to forcing a child to inhale cigarette smoke instead of oxygen is ridiculous. There are many moms here that have no choice but to feed their children formula and I am sure that they would disagree that formula is not an acceptable substitute to feed their children. Where exactly do you propose these vast quantities of donor breastmilk come from? How do you propose that all of these moms pay for the donor breastmilk which, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, can cost as much as $11 per 3 ounce bottle. What exactly should the parents who cannot feed their children breastmilk (those with metabolic disorders, foster parents who are not allowed to feed breastmilk, etc) use to nourish their children? If you want to convince people of the importance of breastfeeding you might consider softening your approach - I know if someone approached me with the attitude displayed in your post I would want nothing to do with their advice.
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#73 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 03:20 AM
 
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Hard core attitudes like this do nothing to further the lactivist movement.

Comparing formula feeding to forcing a child to inhale cigarette smoke instead of oxygen is ridiculous. There are many moms here that have no choice but to feed their children formula and I am sure that they would disagree that formula is not an acceptable substitute to feed their children. Where exactly do you propose these vast quantities of donor breastmilk come from? How do you propose that all of these moms pay for the donor breastmilk which, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, can cost as much as $11 per 3 ounce bottle. What exactly should the parents who cannot feed their children breastmilk (those with metabolic disorders, foster parents who are not allowed to feed breastmilk, etc) use to nourish their children? If you want to convince people of the importance of breastfeeding you might consider softening your approach - I know if someone approached me with the attitude displayed in your post I would want nothing to do with their advice.
I know tons of moms who would love the opportunity to work from home pumping breastmilk. There is absolutely no reason why there cannot be programs like that. Take a tiny fraction of the money and political force put behind formula and re-direct it towards making breastmilk accessible and that should not be a problem. If our (or your) society would not a child go without formula, it should not let a child go without breastmilk. Children with metabolic disorders need a medical solution, not a whole industry based on hurting babies. The few cases where formula can be useful are not an excuse for the existence of the formula industry. If foster parents are not allowed to feed breastmilk, then those rules need to be changed.

It does not matter that people who have no choice (because of the lack of alternatives) think it is good. The facts show otherwise. If you really care about people who cannot breastfeed, you should be out there trying to get universal access to breastmilk, not defending formula. Formula is only acceptable when the other alternative is either nothing or something that will harm the child more. Those situations are very sad.

Another sad thing is the fact that we are supposed to 'soften up' things in order to be heard. Why is it that good old critical thinking is seen as offensive nowadays. There is nothing disrespectful about telling someone that they should have the right to get breastmilk for their babies. There, however, is something very wrong with telling someone that what they are doing is just as good when it is not.

I think the smoking analogy is very much appropriate. I am not saying that the health risks of cigarette smoke and formula are the same (or that they aren't). What I am pointing out is that it gets really ridiculous how people think they always have to be all nice and polite about other people's choice. 30 years ago, saying that smoking around kids was bad would have sounded crazy to most. Now it is formula, among other things. The dangers of something do not change because someone has no other practical choices or if they do not know of them.

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#74 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 03:27 AM
 
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I pumped for 5.5 months, albeit with very low-supply. Pumping is a LOT of work, especially with little ones to care for. I'm all for normalizing BFing, and having better supports in place, absolutely. I just can't picture a BM cottage industry fulfilling the need for donor milk. How much would you get paid an ounce? And then the milk would need to be tested, and pasteurized. I still think the cost would be prohibitive to depend on donor milk.

"Formula is only acceptable when the other alternative is either nothing or something that will harm the child more. Those situations are very sad."

It's pretty devastating to not be able to BF. I think you need to be a bit more compassionate about it, especially if you know it's sad. The smoking analogy is beyond the pale. Formula is nowhere near as toxic as cigarette smoke. Hyperbole, much?
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#75 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 04:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FancyD;11795987I just can't picture a BM cottage industry fulfilling the need for donor milk. How much would you get paid an ounce? And then the milk would need to be tested, and pasteurized. I still think the cost would be prohibitive to depend on donor milk.

[I
"Formula is only acceptable when the other alternative is either nothing or something that will harm the child more. Those situations are very sad."

[/I]It's pretty devastating to not be able to BF. I think you need to be a bit more compassionate about it, especially if you know it's sad. The smoking analogy is beyond the pale. Formula is nowhere near as toxic as cigarette smoke. Hyperbole, much?
Formula needs to be developed by scientists in labs. The raw materials needs to be produced, processed, tested and put together. The formula then needs to be marketed, shipped, etc. It still manages to be profitable, very, very profitable. Most governments will also pay for it in the case of low income families. Producing cheap and available breast milk would not be nearly as difficult if it had the same backing formula does. There are tons of mothers who produce tons of milk and who would love the job.

As for being compassionate, I think that acknowledging the reality of what formula really is and how it is so unfair and wrong that we, as a society, do not take a stance in favour of making breastmilk available when needed and breastfeeding possible regardless of employment or other necessities is compassionate. On the other hand, pretending like formula is equivalent or even adequate is a lie and not very compassionate at all. This does not mean that we should not understand that certain situations really can make breastfeeding impossible or difficult. It does not mean that we should blame everyone who gives formula to their babies either. It is because I feel so sad for women who are forced to give formula to their babies that I am so passionate about the reality of formula.

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#76 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 04:10 AM
 
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Formula needs to be developed by scientists in labs. The raw materials needs to be produced, processed, tested and put together. The formula then needs to be marketed, shipped, etc. It still manages to be profitable, very, very profitable. Most governments will also pay for it in the case of low income families. Producing cheap and available breast milk would not be nearly as difficult if it had the same backing formula does. There are tons of mothers who produce tons of milk and who would love the job.
Considering the amount of work that goes into pumping (and I know because I have had to do it before) I cannot imagine any woman who would pump their breastmilk to be paid a price that would be comparable to the cost of formula. Even if a mom was compensated only $1 per ounce of produced breastmilk (which seems low to me taking into account the time and effort that goes into pumping) that would mean that the minimum cost to a family (before the costs of testing and packaging are added in) would near $30 a day in most cases. That is not something that is affordable to the majority of those who would be purchasing it.
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#77 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 10:24 AM
 
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On the other hand, pretending like formula is equivalent or even adequate is a lie and not very compassionate at all. .
I don't think anyone here is saying that formula is equivalent to breastmilk. If we felt that way, this conversation wouldn't be taking place at all. However, it is an adequate (although not IDEAL) substitute, and there are cases when it's needed.

I agree we need to provide more support and change the system so that more moms can breastfeed and more can have access to breast milk. This is an ideal, and it is not the way things work now. I'm not saying we need to be happy with the way things are now and just accept it or only work within the system, but I do want to point out that change takes time, and until we can ensure that women have the support and information they need and access to resources (donor breastmilk and otherwise), it is unfair and unrealistic to say that no one should be using formula.

It is fact that formula is not as good as breastmilk. I won't mince words with that, but I think on this board, at least, there are many FF moms that are well aware of that and are here because they were devastated they couldn't breastfeed for a myriad of reasons.

I agree with the PPs who said that none of us is above judgment. While I understand anger and frustration at the formula industry, and I too want to change the world, I don't think it's going to happen overnight, and I do think that we do need to be aware that each person walks in very different shoes (whether we agree with their choices or not). And I do have to say that often, based on circumstances, people don't always have as many choices as we'd like to think they do. This goes for both formula feeding and jobs.

I'm probably going to regret jumping in here...
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#78 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 12:27 PM
 
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Awesome post, milkerific.

soso, no one at MDC (where you are posting this) thinks formula is just as good as BM. Come on. There are moms, like myself, who've had to use it though, and you might want to tone down your rhetoric. Do you want to be right, or an effective activist?

I would also like to see some kind of hard numbers on how many women you could sustainably hire as donors. Have you pumped extensively? I have, as I said, and it's some serious work. I'm not saying it's impossible to have a larger workforce, I just see a lot of issues with it. Also, if you had enough women pumping (and I honestly don't think you would have enough to be profitable), you need a sterile pick-up service that is national, right? Would there then be a central lab to pasteurize and test the BM?

Again, I fully support better education and aid for mother's to BF. Longer mat leave in the states would be a wicked cool start, as would readily available LCs.

FYI, pumping doesn't empty your breast completely, and can lead to lower supply unless you're vigilant about it.
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#79 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 01:30 PM
 
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Ouch....that was kind of a hurtful comment ....I'm not sure why you got the feeling that I am judgemental more than just wondering about compatibility and what others would in the same situation...

If you read one of my previous posts it my qualms had to do less with being nitpicky about where she worked and more about whether or not she would be disrespectful of breastfeeding and/or responsible for formula marketing, which, IMO, would cross my moral boundaries to the point that friendship would be difficult. However, I found out she is in quality control to make sure that the formula is up to processing standards, and, it is a local formula company based out of VT. So, not perfect, however, I see it as a good opportunity to talk about breastfeeding and she has proven to be really nice and fun to hang out with.
I wasn't trying to be hurtful, but you are so quick to assume that she would be disrespectful of breastfeeding based solely on where she worked. Frankly, that is judgemental. If however after getting to know her she was disrepectful in regards to anything, I could see how being friends with her would not be possible.
My question for you is, if you weren't being nitpicky about where she worked then why was your original question, "Could you be be friends with someone who works for a formula company?"
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#80 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 02:16 PM
 
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My BFFs DH works for Monsanto and another BFs DH works for Pfizer. I don't hold it against them

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#81 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 04:57 PM
 
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Nope! Wouldn't hang with this person. And I don't have to justify myself either. Wouldn't hang out with someone who worked for a cigarette company either. Or a factory farm. $%&$ THAT.

To the posters who mentioned that formula has a necessary place-- why yes it does. A very tiny number of children are born every year with a metabolic abnormality called classic galactosemia. They cannot digest breastmilk properly, so unfortunately it is poison for them. They need a special kind of formula that is completely lactose-free. This could be made by a single small factory, no problem, and distributed through pediatricians at no charge.

EVERY OTHER CHILD on the planet deserves real human milk, not some powdered artificial mock-up. Gratitude for big formula companies?!?!? Pshaw. Knock them down and build MILK BANKS.


Okay, when I could not BF for my own medical reasons, would you have been willing to pay for my child's milk from a milk bank?

I bet not. I could not afford it. I BF my other two children, so I am not some person who is uneducated and uninformed. I am probably one of the biggest BF advocates out there. However, I realize that like it or not, there are other reasons to feed with formula, legitimate ones, in addition to galactosemia.
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#82 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 05:09 PM
 
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How many moms make *tons* of milk??? My body made what my kids needed..and not a whole lot more. That's what nature intended. Assuming that pumping moms are also breastfeeding moms, how much MORE milk could they possibly have???


Honestly, most of the banked milk I know that gets donated comes from moms of babies who've passed away


And again, it's $11 for 3 ounces!!!


And, no one on this board believes that formula is as good as breastmilk. But that's also not the subject of this thread.
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#83 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 05:33 PM
 
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I guess the concept of breastmilk being universally accessible might be difficult to grasp for people who live in a country where they are expected to pay for health care.

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#84 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 05:38 PM
 
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I guess the concept of breastmilk being universally accessible might be difficult to grasp for people who live in a country where they are expected to pay for health care.
It's not the concept that is difficult to grasp. It's the financial reality. And if your target audience lives in this country, you should be taking their financial realities into consideration when offering solutions.
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#85 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 05:53 PM
 
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I'm Canadian, so no out of pockets costs to me. There was a milk bank in Vancouver, I think, but it shut down. I'll go look what I can find. Anyhoo, I think that you're very passionate about BFing being the norm, and I agree with you. EVERYONE here agrees with you. I just think that you could use your energy more effectively rallying for year-long mat leave in America (we have that in Canada).

Just because your plan is being criticized my some (me included) doesn't mean we don't share the same goal.

ETA It seems the Vancouver MB is running still.
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#86 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 05:58 PM
 
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Here's an article from 2003 about the Vancouver MB.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads=


"It probably costs in the neighbourhood of about $700 Cdn a week to feed him breast milk," says the baby's father, Ian Clifford.
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#87 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 05:59 PM
 
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Free breast milk for all sounds great, but...

How would we get all of this breast milk for those who can not bf/produce milk/enough milk? Will there be a mandate for all lactating women to pump and donate? And will the govt be supplying breast pumps and supplies to all lactating women? What if you can't produce for the pump?

I wish it was easy and cheap (at least as cheap as formula, anyway) to provide breast milk to all who could not bf/produce/produce enough for everyone. I truly do. It seems like an impossible goal, considering how many women choose to/have to work outside of the home. Many of these women just dont pump well, or can not pump at all at their jobs. It seems like a lot of change would be required. I am not saying that change is bad. It just seems like so much change would be required to make it possible.
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#88 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 06:04 PM
 
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I read through most of the posts and frankly, some of them made me sad. Many of you would not be friends of our familiy based on where we work having never met us. You see, I work for the government and my husband is head of a QA department at a meat plant. Yet we cloth diapered (in an area it's not popular in and my kids are not even close to being babies anymore), breastfed, made all my own baby/toddler food, and cook from scratch as much as possible. We recylcle, re-use, have a very small house to avoid being house poor and my boys (12 and 9) still request to sleep with me.
You can be MY friend :
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#89 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 06:07 PM
 
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You can be MY friend :

34me, I would be your friend, too. And I am a vegetarian.
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#90 of 175 Old 07-28-2008, 06:08 PM
 
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This is the kind of hard core lactivist attitude towards formula and those that use it for whatever reason that turns people off. Many mama's here have no other choice than to feed their children formula, it is just a fact of life, and for you to say that formula is not an okay substitute for breastmilk is insulting.
Yeah that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By throwing it in people's face they will do the exact opposite and turn away. Lactivism is not about that type of attitude at all. I am pro breast feeding, but come on now.
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