Could you be friends with someone who works for a formula company? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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Old 07-30-2008, 09:00 PM
 
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Again I ask where are you going to get the thousands of women needed to produce the "mind boggling" amount of breastmilk that would be needed to replace formula, heck even just the formula provided by WIC, at a pay rate that would make the price of breastmilk comparable to the cost of formula.
HERE'S where it gets interesting and goes to a level i'm unwilling to consider. If the government was involved you'd better believe there'd likely be a madatory "donation" required. I'll tell you what, I've bf my kids now for 41 months.....and while i have never, thankfully, had supply issues, i don't have a spare ounce to donate.....but, and call me bitter, but just like the taxes we pay, more and more would be required to be "donated" at the EXPENSE of my own child. Call me selfish.....but this is one area where my own family must come first.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:17 PM
 
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For the most part, yes. I could be friends with somebody who worked for a formula company. It would depend on the job the person did, and how they felt about their job.

I don't have a problem with formula existing. It's mostly the marketing that I take issue with. Too many moms use formula thinking it's the same, or nearly the same, as breastmilk. I wish people understood that Tang is to orange juice as formula is to breastmilk. Just because they both have vitamin C and the same number of calories per serving doesn't make them equal. It also kills me when moms who formula feed suddenly start label reading for their toddler, and refusing to give foods where crappy oil or sugar top the ingredient list.

Anyway, if the mom worked in the accounting department, or she was an office cleaner, or did HR or something I wouldn't care. If she worked in an aspect of marketing that actively misrepresented formula AND she didn't have a problem with, it would probably hurt the friendship. I can't imagine being close with the sort of person who didn't take issue with that, and I strongly suspect that me and such a person would have a lot of uncommon ground... making a close friendship difficult.

Julie - Mom to Elizabeth (Libby) age 6, Penelope (Penny) age 5, Elliott age 29 months, and Oscar who is 1 year old!
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:23 PM
 
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I am going to answer your original question mrsfrazier:

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I am so passionate about breastfeeding that I don't know how I can be friends with someone who is so complacent about it to the point that they would work for a formula company!! But I really like her and would like to be friends aside from that...

How should I handle this in conversation?
(Forgive typos, NAK'ing -- again )

I think this is a general question we all face in our lives as we advance into our roles as mothers, grown women, wives and namely, in this case: friends. Not necessarily the role of "would I be friends with someone who works for a formula company" but a "Can I be friends with someone who does something in their life I am diabolically opposed to?"

That being said, your question is a good one. I face it myself in my daily life. Do I HAVE to be charitable? The answer is yes. "Do I HAVE to be friends/buddies/playdate pals?" The answer is no.

You like her, you want to hang out with her, then do so. Decide also if you would like to take a moment to educate her about breastfeeding, and/or about formula company tactics. It could be she knows and doesn't care. It could be she has no idea the reach -- for instance: does Nestle tell all of it's employees that they aggressively market their formula in third world countries and as a result babies are starving to death? Probably not. I keep thinking about people I know who sell pharmaceuticals. WOW what a cut-throat, aggressive world they work in. I can't even imagine what sales meetings must be like in formula divisions of pharmaceutical companies. Furthermore, if like our mutual acquaintance, she received a year of free formula just for giving birth she may view her company as "kind and giving" rather than devious and undermining.

So if your requirements to have a worthwhile friendship with her is to state your very firm belief in breastfeeding and only using formula when there is no other choice -- by all means -- do it. Be prepared to hear anything she has to say in response. I would handle it delicately myself, and suspect you will too. AGAIN, I firmly believe a lot of people that work for these companies have NO IDEA what's really going on.

Oh and onto our mutual friend, if this is any proof of what I am trying to convey: she says that her family refers to her sister as the "formula angel" or "formula hero" or some such thing. Why? Because her company sends formula, by the BOAT LOAD to any area hit by a natural disaster or tragedy. She feels GREAT about this. What a hero huh? She's "helping out" those mothers -- or family members of babies who lost their mother by sending formula. IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ANY OF THE FAMILY THAT THEY ARE SENDING FORMULA TO AREAS WITH A LACK OF CLEAN WATER, TO PEOPLE SO POOR THEY CAN'T AFFORD FORMULA ONCE THE HELP IS GONE. ARE ENCOURAGED TO USE THE FORMULA RATHER THAN WET-NURSE FOR THE SAKE OF WESTERN SENSIBILITIES. THAT THEY ARE, INFACT, GIVING A DEATH SENTENCE TO MANY, MANY INFANTS.

I pointed it out -- but that's the way I roll. The aforementioned and I are still friends. She just didn't think of it that way. Not many of "us" do. The members of this board only have the knowledge they do because of a passion for breastfeeding, the right to do it, and the desire for the knowledge. Period. People really don't realize how much they should care.

So it's up to you. If you don't think you can be friends without saying your peace, then say your peace and let the chips fall where they may. If you don't really care all that much, don't say anything. Basically, I am just saying: stick to your convictions, and most of all: respect hers. Or at least the right for her to have her convictions!


Good luck, and update me when you can.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:51 PM
 
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it would depend on the friend. When first asking this question, my immediate answer is "no".

my friend once asked me what I thought of her going to work as a pharmaceutical rep, my answer was, "well, if you have to do it to support yourself and your dd, then just realize you're basically selling your soul to the devil. I'll still be friends with you, because I understand that you need to support your family, I just don't think you could live with yourself."

She ended up not working as a pharmaceutical rep. She's a teacher for children with autism...

the more I think about it, the more my answer is still "no"... While there are, like 2 out of 100 moms in my playgroup that formula feed I really tend to stay away from FF moms. My life really is so wrapped up in breastfeeding, babywearing, cosleeping, etc that I can't really "hang out" with more "conventional" moms just because I really don't have anything in common with FF, stroller using, crib/nursery using moms. If I were to make a friend, who happened to tell me while I'm wearing and nursing my babe that she works for a formula company, I would tell her that she works for the devil and spout off all kinds of stats about how formula kills babies all over the world.

now, if she were still willing to be friends with me after getting a huge lecture and admitting that her employer sucks, then maybe I would consider it.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:17 PM
 
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I personally think a lot of people have a warped view of what friendship really is.

I do not choose to believe that a person has something valuable to bring to my life simply based on how many things we have in common or if she shares the same belief system as I do. If those things interfered with us developing a relationship, then I guess we could not be friends. But if that happens it is because one or both of us is deciding that our opinions are more important than relationship.

Out of ALL my friends, I am the only one who ended up using formula after a round of crap and heartache. I'm glad none of them decided to kick me to the curb.

Casey, wife to Danny, mom to Olive : and Darcy : .
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:28 PM
 
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Out of ALL my friends, I am the only one who ended up using formula after a round of crap and heartache. I'm glad none of them decided to kick me to the curb.
I would never kick one of my friends to the curb if they were unable to breastfeed for whatever reasons. Most of the mommy friends I have, I have made at breastfeeding support groups or LLL meetings. We do have mommies at the support groups that have to use formula.

I just don't go walking up to mommies who are bottle feeding and hand them my card to invite them to my playgroup like I do when I see a nursing mommy in public.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:51 PM
 
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I just don't go walking up to mommies who are bottle feeding and hand them my card to invite them to my playgroup like I do when I see a nursing mommy in public.
I can understand that seeing a breastfeeding mom you are more sure that you will have something in common. But at the same time I don't get only wanting to hang out with people who do all the same things you do. I don't think it's wrong by any means though.

Casey, wife to Danny, mom to Olive : and Darcy : .
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:54 PM
 
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This thread has caused my heart to leave my chest.

OP - Yes, I would be friends.

I won't go into my bf'ing failure story, or my inability to access a milk bank and/or donor bank.

The one thing I will mention is a thread I started about beginning solids in a formula fed baby.

And this is what Arwyn (a mod) replied:

Quote:
Same rules.

My understanding is that early solids and purees were started when formulas were simply unacceptable nutritionally. They're still substandard, and they always will be no matter how much we improve them (as you know I'm sure ), but nowadays they are acceptable food for infants. So yes, same rules apply, especially if you've been bottlenursing or as close to it as you can. Go at your child's pace, self-feed, use real food, etc. If anything I think those things are more important for babies who needed to be formula fed.

And another Your baby will be fine.
See?

Does not deny the fact that formula far pales in comparison to breastmilk (substandard is a pretty non-confrontational word, to me anyway) which of all people - trust me I know; we didn't go through what we went through for my own vanity... But at the same time she was compassionate. I didn't have anything thrown in my face, I wasn't made to feel worse than I already was (it wasn't possible), and I got good info.

Sorry to derail ladies. As someone who's baby was almost hospitalized through my militant attempts to exclusively bf, and now that I'm suffering PTSD from the whole experience, I'd like to say a little kindness goes a long way.

That, my friends, is lactivism.

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I just don't go walking up to mommies who are bottle feeding and hand them my card to invite them to my playgroup like I do when I see a nursing mommy in public.
And while I *get* this, I do, it still really, really hurts. I wonder how many playgroups or friendships I've missed out on because someone saw me holding a bottle.

I only know the dirty looks I've gotten for sure... Or the comments that at least 'you're not using poison plastic bottles' (we have the Born Free)... How do we know that these bottles are not holding breastmilk?

Egads, I *know* this is lactivism, and I AM a lactivist, but the misunderstanding really hurts sometimes.

Full time working mom to two bright and busy little girls! treehugger.gif
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:03 PM
 
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This thread has caused my heart to leave my chest.

OP - Yes, I would be friends.

I won't go into my bf'ing failure story, or my inability to access a milk bank and/or donor bank.

The one thing I will mention is a thread I started about beginning solids in a formula fed baby.

And this is what Arwyn (a mod) replied:



See?

Does not deny the fact that formula far pales in comparison to breastmilk (substandard is a pretty non-confrontational word, to me anyway) which of all people - trust me I know; we didn't go through what we went through for my own vanity... But at the same time she was compassionate. I didn't have anything thrown in my face, I wasn't made to feel worse than I already was (it wasn't possible), and I got good info.

Sorry to derail ladies. As someone who's baby was almost hospitalized through my militant attempts to exclusively bf, and now that I'm suffering PTSD from the whole experience, I'd like to say a little kindness goes a long way.

That, my friends, is lactivism.



And while I *get* this, I do, it still really, really hurts. I wonder how many playgroups or friendships I've missed out on because someone saw me holding a bottle.

I only know the dirty looks I've gotten for sure... Or the comments that at least 'you're not using poison plastic bottles' (we have the Born Free)... How do we know that these bottles are not holding breastmilk?

Egads, I *know* this is lactivism, and I AM a lactivist, but the misunderstanding really hurts sometimes.
I remember that post from Arwyn. It was very meaningful to me too.

Casey, wife to Danny, mom to Olive : and Darcy : .
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:23 PM
 
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I just don't go walking up to mommies who are bottle feeding and hand them my card to invite them to my playgroup like I do when I see a nursing mommy in public.
How do you know that the bottle feeding mommy at the mall is not a new mom who is feeding her baby expressed breast milk because she is too shy to nurse in public? Maybe she would benefit from hanging out with a bunch of mommies who aren't afraid to breast feed in front of other people.

I just hate to assume what a mom is feeding her baby from a bottle unless se tells me what it is - I had to pump for my baby and would have felt terrible if I knew that someone judged me based solely on the bottle in my hand.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:31 PM
 
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How do you know that the bottle feeding mommy at the mall is not a new mom who is feeding her baby expressed breast milk because she is too shy to nurse in public? Maybe she would benefit from hanging out with a bunch of mommies who aren't afraid to breast feed in front of other people.

I just hate to assume what a mom is feeding her baby from a bottle unless se tells me what it is - I had to pump for my baby and would have felt terrible if I knew that someone judged me based solely on the bottle in my hand.

: I had to pump and feed my preemie bottles for months and months because it took her forever to learn to latch. I hate to think that people would judge me and refuse to invite me to what is most likely a playgroup I would enjoy just because I had a preemie who couldn't nurse.

And to answer the OP, yes I could be friends with her as long as she didn't push formula feeding down my throat. One of my best friends formula fed by choice, but she was also my greatest supporter during my breastfeeding struggles.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:53 AM
 
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause so much drama over my post. I don't "judge" other mama's for FF as much as I don't feel that they have enough in common with me because I do BF to walk up to them and invite them into my playgroup. I'm really really nosy... I watch them prepare the bottles. If I see them take out a bottle and carefully swirl the milk, I can assume it's breast milk, but when I see them unscrew a bottle of already prepared formula and screw a nipple on it, it''s kind of obvious it's not breast milk.

Breastfeeding is very very important in my life. Not a few minutes go by in my day to day conversations that don't involve talk about breastfeeding. I just assume that someone who has chosen to FF would not be interested in hanging out with me while I constantly talk about breastfeeding. I'm really gun shy about that because I have had strangers come up to me while NIP completely berating me about how they tried to BF and it didn't work for them for whatever reasons, shouting at me about how hard it was for them, or how their milk never came in or how at 6 months their milk dried up... It's not my fault they had problems and by me sitting there happily NIP, they felt like I was judging them when I was in all reality in my own little world of me and my baby.

I also don't tend to walk up to women who leave their baby's screaming in a stroller bucket and invite them into my playgroup as readily as women who wear their baby in a sling or other type of carrier.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:58 AM
 
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How do you know that the bottle feeding mommy at the mall is not a new mom who is feeding her baby expressed breast milk because she is too shy to nurse in public? Maybe she would benefit from hanging out with a bunch of mommies who aren't afraid to breast feed in front of other people.

I just hate to assume what a mom is feeding her baby from a bottle unless se tells me what it is - I had to pump for my baby and would have felt terrible if I knew that someone judged me based solely on the bottle in my hand.
I recently (within the last year) got a BIG, FAT LESSON on these assumptions that you describe. I was taking my youngest to a regular check-up on our military base's clinic. I had already heard three times that "you can supplement if you want to" from our Pedi. : So when I was sitting in the waiting room with my then-3-month-old a young lady came in and offered her 8 DAY OLD (I asked) an Avent bottle. I had already tried my hand at lactivising (LOL word?) the pedi - and quite frankly was uber-pissed she is telling young Navy wives that supplementing was fine-as-wine. I knew her monotone schpiel might be influencing this mother -- I got uptight, indignant, and quite frankly: really sad -- actually teared up over it, wondering what I could say to this young mother. Or if I should keep my trap shut and not say anything at all. It's always a quagmire, isn't it?

She/mom looks at me a bit flustered when the baby started choking, coughing, sputtering, (mind you once I started nursing), and said "I pumped this milk so I wouldn't have to breastfeed here, and it's choking her! I am just going to nurse!" And I encouraged her! You go RIGHT AHEAD!
:::

I spent the next five minutes telling this lady her rights (on Fed property), her abilities, her shyness is fine, but one can nurse discreetly -- and really how little shows. I demonstrated the "quick-latch" i.e. blanket-free.

I also ate the crow that had been flying around in my head. Here I was at the point of tears that this baby wasn't breastfed when in reality she was, but MOM was fearful of NIP. When she saw her baby choke and sputter her own intuition took over. I was blessed enough to be sitting there with my #4 and to tell her "hey momma this is no BIGGIE, you can get the hang of latching discreetly while knowing it's your legal RIGHT to BF anywhere on this base and out in the community."

It is a humbling experience I hope to repeat many times over.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:14 AM
 
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You just don't know what the situation is when you see a mom feeding her baby. Even if it's obviously formula. My BFF has three sweet wonderful babies born last May at 27 wks gestation. She gave birth to quads, but tragically lost one son at just a few weeks old. While she was in the hospital for preterm labor (she was hospitalized for 6 wks) she was constantly berated by nurses coming on shift that HADN'T worked w/her before about the importance of breastfeeding and how it was her babies' best chance at survival. Even the day she delivered a nurse wanted to "set up a consultation" w/a lactation consultant post surgery to get her started pumping. Each and every time they brought her to tears.......because she doesn't have breasts. She's a breast cancer survivor. Diagnosed at age 29. Double masectomy. Bravest, most loving person I know. She would have breast fed her babies in a heartbeat but, quite obviously could not. They did receive donor milk in the NICU. I would have done anything to help her myself but she lives across country and at the time I was 5 months pregnant and nursing my nearly 2 year old....not a lot of milk..and pumping was no longer productive. She doesn't wear her babies either......well, she can wear 2 at a time but not so easily anymore now that they're 1, so I suppose the stroller and the formula would throw a person off as to "what type of person" she is.......but I tell you what, someone who chose not to befriend her based upon what they saw in the mall/park that day.....would miss the opportunity to have one of the most wonderful people on earth in their lives.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:18 AM
 
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I've had numerous women give me dirty looks when out feeding my DD a bottle in public. None of them bother to ask whether or not its formula or breast milk (I pump exclusively and my DD has only ever had breastmilk). I get pretty upset at the judgement I'm getting. We had major problems with breastfeeding and I still feel pretty upset and inadequate because we weren't able to breastfeed. But I work really hard to pump for her. Getting judged though just for using a bottle makes me feel quite awful.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:27 AM
 
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I also don't tend to walk up to women who leave their baby's screaming in a stroller bucket and invite them into my playgroup as readily as women who wear their baby in a sling or other type of carrier.
Are you saying bottle feeding is equivalent to leaving a baby screaming in a stroller bucket?
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:36 AM
 
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Breastfeeding is very very important in my life. Not a few minutes go by in my day to day conversations that don't involve talk about breastfeeding. I just assume that someone who has chosen to FF would not be interested in hanging out with me while I constantly talk about breastfeeding. I'm really gun shy about that because I have had strangers come up to me while NIP completely berating me about how they tried to BF and it didn't work for them for whatever reasons, shouting at me about how hard it was for them, or how their milk never came in or how at 6 months their milk dried up... It's not my fault they had problems and by me sitting there happily NIP, they felt like I was judging them when I was in all reality in my own little world of me and my baby.

I also don't tend to walk up to women who leave their baby's screaming in a stroller bucket and invite them into my playgroup as readily as women who wear their baby in a sling or other type of carrier.
And imagine how a ff mother feels when she sees you staring her down watching her prepare a bottle to feed her child. Or she sees you talking to all the other moms who BF at the park and not her. How does this do any good for lactivism at all? I too am wondering how many playgroups and friendships I miss out on because I ff. You're making an assumpation about a woman you've never even met and that's sad. The same goes for women who use strollers. I know quite a few women who's babies hated being worn (mine inlcuded) in any sort of carrier.

Perhaps instead you could invite this new mommy and find out what her story really is. Maybe all the mom's in the playgroup could band together and donate milk to this mom that is using formula.


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This thread has caused my heart to leave my chest.

And while I *get* this, I do, it still really, really hurts. I wonder how many playgroups or friendships I've missed out on because someone saw me holding a bottle.

I only know the dirty looks I've gotten for sure... Or the comments that at least 'you're not using poison plastic bottles' (we have the Born Free)... How do we know that these bottles are not holding breastmilk?

Egads, I *know* this is lactivism, and I AM a lactivist, but the misunderstanding really hurts sometimes.
Yes, I got that all the time too. And it makes me sad, that someone is so quick to judge me though they know nothing about me.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:40 AM
 
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Yeah. DS was mostly FF for a variety of reasons, all related to his brain damage. I said that I was getting dirty looks for FF him in a sling, and everyone told me I was crazy. Guess I was right.
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:05 AM
 
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Yeah,sure. Now,the CEOs of the Formula Co. nottachance.

I bet you got some great advice about friendliness to this woman-good luck!!
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:35 AM
 
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I've had numerous women give me dirty looks when out feeding my DD a bottle in public. None of them bother to ask whether or not its formula or breast milk (I pump exclusively and my DD has only ever had breastmilk). I get pretty upset at the judgement I'm getting. We had major problems with breastfeeding and I still feel pretty upset and inadequate because we weren't able to breastfeed. But I work really hard to pump for her. Getting judged though just for using a bottle makes me feel quite awful.
As an EPer (dd could not nurse) I got the dirty looks, too. I wonder if people discounted me as a potential friend b/c I used a bottle to feed my dd breast milk. I still grieve that she could not bf from the tap. The dirty looks stopped once I switched her to a sippy cup, surprisingly.
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:56 AM
 
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Perhaps instead you could invite this new mommy and find out what her story really is. Maybe all the mom's in the playgroup could band together and donate milk to this mom that is using formula.
I would have jumped on a chance like this in a heartbeat.

We're actually going to the paed today. Dd is getting a referral to have a scope done to check for damage from her silent reflux. I'm actually going to see my therapist again today, to continue working on my issues re: her traumatic birth and our failed bf relationship.

She still has t-shirts and onesies that promote bf'ing. And I'm usually the loudest (in my group) when it comes to promoting breastmilk... go figure.

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Old 07-31-2008, 01:15 PM
 
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Perhaps instead you could invite this new mommy and find out what her story really is. Maybe all the mom's in the playgroup could band together and donate milk to this mom that is using formula.

Yes, I got that all the time too. And it makes me sad, that someone is so quick to judge me though they know nothing about me.
I'm not really sure what kind of world you all think I live in... I don't invite every woman I meet out in public. Also: I am the "crunchiest" of all my friends. I highly doubt any of the moms in my playgroup would have any interest in donating milk or cross nursing. I have only one friend who has ever expressed an interest or openness to cross nursing. I'm the only one in my playgroup who had a natural birth, I'm the only one who has delayed vaccinations, I'm the only one who uses CD. While the group was started from moms in a breastfeeding support group, we have invited new moms from churches, baby gym classes, library story times, etc.

I don't generally walk up to every woman I see with a baby or small child and interview them about their feeding habits.

Do you walk up to random mommies and ask them their story?
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:28 PM
 
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1) Yup formula is a food. Breastmilk is not really a food. It's a living biological fluid more akin to blood. Its function goes way beyond mere nutrition.

2) Health effects that not breastfeeding and exposure to second-hand smoke both have in common:

increased rate of SIDS
respiratory infections such as asthma, pneumonia, and bronchitis
allergies
frequent ear infections
cancer (in childhood AND increased risk of different types into adulthood)
generally depressed immune system

Additional health effects caused by not breastfeeding that are not caused by second-hand smoke exposure:

lower IQ
increased type 1 and type 2 diabetes
increased overweight and obesity
high cholesterol
diarrhea
21% higher postneonatal mortality rate
increased risk of Crohn's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and Hodgkin's disease
increased vision defects
increased risk of dental problems including cavities, jaw problems and dental malocclusions
increased risk of osteoporosis
less chance of cardiopulmonary distress when nursing vs. bottle-feeding
poorer serum and secretory responses to oral and parenteral vaccines
increased risk of necrotizing entercolitis
risk of contamination (pathogens, broken glass, production errors which have resulted in various deficiencies)
decreased speech development due to abnormal tongue-thrust
eczema
potential future problems from genetically modified ingredients and synthetic growth hormones present in soy or cow's milk
increased multiple sclerosis
increased risk of inguinal hernia
poorer social development

As you all (hopefully) know more is being learned every day about the importance of real human breastmilk. For instance now we know that stem cells are present in breastmilk. What effect NOT getting these cells has is unknown. It might contribute to one of the risks already known, or it might cause further damage that hasn't yet been assessed. This (frightening) document has a lot of the current research...did you know, for example, that there is a potential link still being studied between formula use and psychological problems like schizophrenia? Check out this document...

Outcomes of Breastfeeding Versus Formula Feeding

Is the comparison of second-hand smoke and formula use perfect? No. But virtually no comparison is perfect. The point is that children deserve clean air and adequate food that doesn't put them at an unreasonable risk. Second-hand smoke is an unreasonable risk, and children deserve clean air. Formula use is an unreasonable risk (does anyone who read the list above disagree with that??) and children deserve breastmilk. It it in the best interests of the government and society in general to do what it takes to give it to them. I think without the pressures from an extremely powerful formula lobby, combined with cultural ignorance about how important breastfeeding is, this is ENTIRELY possible.

3) I cannot imagine how painful it would be to hear all of this if I had not breastfed for whatever reason. And I almost did quit very early on because I had severe problems in the beginning. But the point that I must make is that criticisms of formula are NOT criticisms of mothers who end up formula feeding. Please refer to the Sticky at the top of this forum. Everyone is asked not to take criticisms of formula personally, and if a woman is understandably in a head-space where this kind of info is hurtful, maybe it's not a good idea to read the Lactivism forum? I utterly reject the idea that things like "formula is not adequate" shouldn't be said, particularly in a forum devoted to this subject.

4)My point has been one thing only-- mothers deserve better help and better alternatives. Surely the massive amounts of formula that are being given out are NOT entirely necessary for medical reasons. We all know that MANY mothers simply choose not to do it, I think largely because they are made unaware by the culture of exactly how harmful it is to not breastfeed. And the mothers who truly cannot, through circumstance or whatever, make enough or any milk-- they deserve donor milk just as they would deserve real donor blood if they needed it.

I will not be replying on this particular thread, but if anyone wants more information or sources (beyond the one posted) for the things I am talking about then start a new thread, this is way off-topic. And also read "Milk, Money, and Madness" for number-crunching and the feasibility of providing every child the normal start enjoyed by all baby mammals of every species except human.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:59 PM
 
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4)My point has been one thing only-- mothers deserve better help and better alternatives. Surely the massive amounts of formula that are being given out are NOT entirely necessary for medical reasons. We all know that MANY mothers simply choose not to do it, I think largely because they are made unaware by the culture of exactly how harmful it is to not breastfeed. And the mothers who truly cannot, through circumstance or whatever, make enough or any milk-- they deserve donor milk just as they would deserve real donor blood if they needed it.
I understand your position on the idea of donor milk - I just want to know where you propose the vast quantities of donor milk come from. And in lieu of donor milk, what exactly would be a better alternative to feed an infant than formula?
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:03 PM
 
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I'm not really sure what kind of world you all think I live in... I don't invite every woman I meet out in public. Also: I am the "crunchiest" of all my friends. I highly doubt any of the moms in my playgroup would have any interest in donating milk or cross nursing. I have only one friend who has ever expressed an interest or openness to cross nursing. I'm the only one in my playgroup who had a natural birth, I'm the only one who has delayed vaccinations, I'm the only one who uses CD. While the group was started from moms in a breastfeeding support group, we have invited new moms from churches, baby gym classes, library story times, etc.

I don't generally walk up to every woman I see with a baby or small child and interview them about their feeding habits.

Do you walk up to random mommies and ask them their story?
I wasn't saying that you should just walk up and ask her, her story. I meant try inviting her to the playgroup and get to know her. You're automatically discounting a woman because you see that she formula feeds and that's what I find sad.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:41 PM
 
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1) Yup formula is a food. Breastmilk is not really a food. It's a living biological fluid more akin to blood. Its function goes way beyond mere nutrition.
Etc., etc., ect.

I'm sure the majority of women here already know this... it's the lactivism forum. And the rest of your educational note is basic info as well.

Quote:
Please refer to the Sticky at the top of this forum. Everyone is asked not to take criticisms of formula personally, and if a woman is understandably in a head-space where this kind of info is hurtful, maybe it's not a good idea to read the Lactivism forum? I utterly reject the idea that things like "formula is not adequate" shouldn't be said, particularly in a forum devoted to this subject.
I hardly think anyone here is taking it personally. Trust me, I have much thicker skin than that.

More like, we're questioning the intent and tone behind your posts. Quite frankly I KNOW that formula is not adequate. I have yet to see ANYONE here argue otherwise... As a matter of fact, I was careful to initially point out that very thing.

Quote:
I just don't go walking up to mommies who are bottle feeding and hand them my card to invite them to my playgroup like I do when I see a nursing mommy in public.
My apologies (really) for some reason I took this literally. Feeling a little hot under the collar over here... Going to bow out now.

Just wanted to finish with, those of you who think death before formula is better, just remember there are a lot of shoes out there to walk in.

Full time working mom to two bright and busy little girls! treehugger.gif
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:45 PM
 
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I can not believe that there is a mother out there who would rather her baby starve than have formula. It's not great, but it sure does keep kids alive long enough to get to the solids stage.

It's too bad wet-nursing isn't more common and acceptable. That would probably reduce the amount of formula consumed overall, no?
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:01 AM
 
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"Living biological fluid like blood"- people necessarily die without blood. They don't necessarily die without breastmilk.

I think you forgot a bunch effects of the poisons in second hand smoke.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:46 PM
 
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"Living biological fluid like blood"- people necessarily die without blood. They don't necessarily die without breastmilk.
ummmm.... Actually they do. There are articles out there with exact numbers, but formula is responsible for numerous deaths around the world due to respiratory and gastrointestinal illness that would not have occurred had the natural bond between nursing mother and baby not been broken. FYI, that includes this country ranking at a horrible #27 in infant mortality.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:50 PM
 
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OK, I didn't emphasize the word *necessarily* enough. Take blood away, death, always. Take BM away and replace with something else, sometimes, BUT NOT ALWAYS, equals death. Therefore, not the same.
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