Could you be friends with someone who works for a formula company? - Page 6 - Mothering Forums
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#151 of 175 Old 08-01-2008, 04:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
They don't necessarily die without breastmilk.
Actually, some older children and adults would die w/o donated bm. I know one personally. A friend, whose DS is severly disabled, she was unable to pump enough(he was unable to latch on for a good amount of time)-Has Angles Syndrome), they had MOms from her church community donate-but after a couple of yrs of that, had to turn to a BreastMilk Bank for donated bm-which-at that time, kept him alive. Oh! and insurance paid for it(BCBS I believe) My friend told me she found out that there were many adults who live on bm-to stay alive, as it's the only nourishment their bodies could tolerate. Wow!
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#152 of 175 Old 08-01-2008, 05:50 PM
 
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AHHHHHH! Read carefully.....Everybody ALWAYS dies without blood! Not EVERYBODY ALWAYS dies without breastmilk. I am completely aware that SOME babies die without breastmilk.

Last post attempting to clarify.
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#153 of 175 Old 08-01-2008, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nursemummy View Post
Quite frankly I KNOW that formula is not adequate. I have yet to see ANYONE here argue otherwise...
Just because I'm anal...

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Originally Posted by milkeriffic mama View Post
I don't think anyone here is saying that formula is equivalent to breastmilk. If we felt that way, this conversation wouldn't be taking place at all. However, it is an adequate (although not IDEAL) substitute, and there are cases when it's needed.
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#154 of 175 Old 08-01-2008, 06:55 PM
 
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AHHHHHH! Read carefully.....Everybody ALWAYS dies without blood! Not EVERYBODY ALWAYS dies without breastmilk. I am completely aware that SOME babies die without breastmilk.

Last post attempting to clarify.
OOps! I'm sorry momma!!! I gotchanow!
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#155 of 175 Old 08-02-2008, 11:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
AHHHHHH! Read carefully.....Everybody ALWAYS dies without blood! Not EVERYBODY ALWAYS dies without breastmilk. I am completely aware that SOME babies die without breastmilk.

Last post attempting to clarify.
I agree!!!!! 100 percent.
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#156 of 175 Old 08-02-2008, 11:41 AM
 
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Um... it's a pretty sensitive time with food shortages/cost increases and gas being $5 a gallon to criticize someone for having a job. JMO. Would you seriously miss out on all the benefits of a possibly great friendship because of her *job?* It would not be worth a lonely existence (to me), just to have everyone I'm close to be in alignment with my values. Whatever happened to celebrating diversity?
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#157 of 175 Old 08-02-2008, 03:24 PM
 
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I agree. Geez, if I interrogated every friend I have to find out EXACTLY what they do in their job, I am pretty sure I could find something I don't agree with. Then I would be left a pretty lonely person.
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#158 of 175 Old 08-02-2008, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shanti1 View Post
HERE'S where it gets interesting and goes to a level i'm unwilling to consider. If the government was involved you'd better believe there'd likely be a madatory "donation" required. I'll tell you what, I've bf my kids now for 41 months.....and while i have never, thankfully, had supply issues, i don't have a spare ounce to donate.....but, and call me bitter, but just like the taxes we pay, more and more would be required to be "donated" at the EXPENSE of my own child. Call me selfish.....but this is one area where my own family must come first.
That is really hilarious. Why would the government force or require anyone to do that? No one in Canada is required to give blood and the government gives it for free. It is really funny (or scary depending on the day) to hear about America's paranoia and fear of anything, dare I say it, socialized or even just government administered. When people are that afraid of their government, they need a revolution.

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#159 of 175 Old 08-02-2008, 11:19 PM
 
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Awesome! I should tell my DH to find a job at B of A if they have that good a paternity leave! If only every company had that....
As of next year, they're bumping it to 12 weeks... but I believe you have to be a full time employee and with the bank for at least a year to be eligible.

My eldest was formula fed exclusively from 9 weeks on. For the first 9 weeks, I was using crappy pumps to express milk for him (I could only get about 8-12 oz a day). I never could get him to latch on, and didn't have the knowledge or resources to get the help I needed.

Do I feel bad that breastfeeding didn't work out? Yes. Do I feel guilty for turning to formula? Not at all. Am I proud that he got that little bit of breastmilk for that first 9 weeks? Absolutely.
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#160 of 175 Old 08-02-2008, 11:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
That is really hilarious. Why would the government force or require anyone to do that? No one in Canada is required to give blood and the government gives it for free. It is really funny (or scary depending on the day) to hear about America's paranoia and fear of anything, dare I say it, socialized or even just government administered. When people are that afraid of their government, they need a revolution.
She was replying to my post:

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Originally Posted by TCMoulton
Again I ask where are you going to get the thousands of women needed to produce the "mind boggling" amount of breastmilk that would be needed to replace formula, heck even just the formula provided by WIC, at a pay rate that would make the price of breastmilk comparable to the cost of formula.
To which I would still love to hear a solution - where are you suggesting we get enough women to produce the vast amount of breastmilk that would be needed to eliminate the need for formula, and if you did found women how many would be willing to be paid pennies an ounce so that the donated breastmilk could remain affordable for those who needed to purchase it. It's simply not possible.

So you can call her hilarious all you want but you obvoiusly did not read her entire post and if you did you took it completely out of context.
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#161 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 12:29 AM
 
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My this thread has covered a lot of areas. Careful, Big Brother is watching...
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#162 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 12:30 AM
 
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She was replying to my post:

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Originally Posted by TCMoulton
Again I ask where are you going to get the thousands of women needed to produce the "mind boggling" amount of breastmilk that would be needed to replace formula, heck even just the formula provided by WIC, at a pay rate that would make the price of breastmilk comparable to the cost of formula.
To which I would still love to hear a solution - where are you suggesting we get enough women to produce the vast amount of breastmilk that would be needed to eliminate the need for formula, and if you did found women how many would be willing to be paid pennies an ounce so that the donated breastmilk could remain affordable for those who needed to purchase it. It's simply not possible.

So you can call her hilarious all you want but you obvoiusly did not read her entire post and if you did you took it completely out of context.
Here's an idea:

1. The govt stops backing formula companies with all kinds of tax rebates and other favorable things. That's some money the govt will make. Maybe add a tax on formula, just like cigarettes (that's right, I compared it to cigarettes again). People who really cannot afford it already get it for free and we could even put in place a waiver for that tax for people who have medical reasons to use the formula.

2. Women who want to and can express milk are hired and paid a decent wage, the same way our Canadian socialized country can pay doctors and nurses, teachers, etc decently. I really do not see how it would be so difficult to find these women, especially in the US, where there is no 1 year paid maternity leave.

3. The milk is sold and donated on a sliding scale which is supplemented by tax benefits, subsidies. It is thus provided for free to welfare recipients (that's right, people who shamelessly live off our taxes...) and other low income families and for an affordable price for higher income people.

Add to that a ban on ANY formula advertisement and other promotional stuff or give aways as well as some serious education for HCPs and directed at pregnant women and it just might work.

Single mom to E (2004) and D (2010)
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#163 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 12:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
Here's an idea:

1. The govt stops backing formula companies with all kinds of tax rebates and other favorable things. That's some money the govt will make. Maybe add a tax on formula, just like cigarettes (that's right, I compared it to cigarettes again). People who really cannot afford it already get it for free and we could even put in place a waiver for that tax for people who have medical reasons to use the formula.

2. Women who want to and can express milk are hired and paid a decent wage, the same way our Canadian socialized country can pay doctors and nurses, teachers, etc decently. I really do not see how it would be so difficult to find these women, especially in the US, where there is no 1 year paid maternity leave.

3. The milk is sold and donated on a sliding scale which is supplemented by tax benefits, subsidies. It is thus provided for free to welfare recipients (that's right, people who shamelessly live off our taxes...) and other low income families and for an affordable price for higher income people.

Add to that a ban on ANY formula advertisement and other promotional stuff or give aways as well as some serious education for HCPs and directed at pregnant women and it just might work.

I have issues with your #2
First-I'd be curious what your MD's and nurses make in Canada. I am a nurse and I get paid very well thankyouverymuch. My MD friends do as well.
Second-women who pump, their breastmilk is presumably spoken for. As was mentioned x2 before, even with good supply, you don't have much to spare. It's unnatural to supply more than what your baby needs. And most women have difficulty finding the time to pump with children of nursing age, especially if they are working!

I work with women who pump every single day in my career. It is very seldom that we have extra breastmilk. At least enough to justify putting mom through the rigorous testing required for milk banks.
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#164 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 01:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
2. Women who want to and can express milk are hired and paid a decent wage, the same way our Canadian socialized country can pay doctors and nurses, teachers, etc decently. I really do not see how it would be so difficult to find these women, especially in the US, where there is no 1 year paid maternity leave.
Have you ever had to pump before? It's not like you hook up the pump and voila, milk appears. It is not easy for most, takes a considerable amount of time, and if a woman is breastfeeding often she is unable to pump additional milk. If she was able to, what do you propose, she spend every waking moment that she is not breastfeeding her child pumping for someone else's baby? Right now breastmilk goes for, as was mentioned earlier, $11 for a 3 ounce bottle. 3 ounces could represent an hour of work for some pumping moms. Do you really think that the government would pay these women a fair wage for their work? The expense would be astronomical. Do you really think that there are so many women out there who would be willing to pump extra breastmilk - heck practically daily there is a thread here at MDC that talks about how the breastfeeding rates are so low these days. I just don't see where you would find this large number of women willing to spend hours a day pumping for the good of other people's babies across the country while still breastfeeding their own child(ren).
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#165 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 01:58 AM
 
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I have issues with your #2
First-I'd be curious what your MD's and nurses make in Canada. I am a nurse and I get paid very well thankyouverymuch. My MD friends do as well.
Second-women who pump, their breastmilk is presumably spoken for. As was mentioned x2 before, even with good supply, you don't have much to spare. It's unnatural to supply more than what your baby needs. And most women have difficulty finding the time to pump with children of nursing age, especially if they are working!

I work with women who pump every single day in my career. It is very seldom that we have extra breastmilk. At least enough to justify putting mom through the rigorous testing required for milk banks.
What I mean is that the nurses, doctors, etc are paid by the govt, unlike the US where it is private. What I am saying is that we can afford that and we could certainly afford to pay pumping mothers a decent salary.

There is nothing 'unnatural' about providing milk for more than one's own baby. I agree that not everyone is capable of producing enough to make it worth expressing, but many, many women do. I have been nursing for 4 years and I can easily fill a glass just by hand expressing. I never tried a pump besides fooling around with an avent pump, which I found very uncomfortable. I know I have more milk than the average person, but still. I am sure many other people would even love to make a career out of it, even if their children have outgrown the breast. Would you tell someone who has a nursing baby and who is adopting that it is 'unnatural' to make more milk?

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Have you ever had to pump before? It's not like you hook up the pump and voila, milk appears. It is not easy for most, takes a considerable amount of time, and if a woman is breastfeeding often she is unable to pump additional milk. If she was able to, what do you propose, she spend every waking moment that she is not breastfeeding her child pumping for someone else's baby? Right now breastmilk goes for, as was mentioned earlier, $11 for a 3 ounce bottle. 3 ounces could represent an hour of work for some pumping moms. Do you really think that the government would pay these women a fair wage for their work? The expense would be astronomical. Do you really think that there are so many women out there who would be willing to pump extra breastmilk - heck practically daily there is a thread here at MDC that talks about how the breastfeeding rates are so low these days. I just don't see where you would find this large number of women willing to spend hours a day pumping for the good of other people's babies across the country while still breastfeeding their own child(ren).
It does not matter what it goes for right now. This price (set by the market) has nothing to do with the price the govt would hypothetically use. It is like saying "a hospital birth goes for 15,000$" to a Canadian. It is just a whole other way to do things.

Why are you so against this? I really do not get it.

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#166 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 12:41 PM
 
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Why are you so against this? I really do not get it.
I think you are misinterpreting people's realism as being "against" the cause. You present a mean hypothetical, but its success is reliant on a lot of "ifs", all of which you are assuming would be no problem, but in reality, would not be so easy to achieve. Is it impossible? I wouldn't say that. But the idea that women would be paid a "fair wage" (how much are we talking anyway? "fair" is quite subjective) and then their milk would, in turn, be provided to others at a low price or even for free just doens't add up. The money doesn't make sense. Can you throw out some hard numbers to show how this would work?
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#167 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 03:30 PM
 
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Another issue with regards to pumping as a career. I don't know about anyone else, but my body takes a remarkable amount of calories to feed another person. I wasted away while exclusively breastfeeding. And was eating us out of house and home.

Who's going to pay for all that extra food pumping moms require?

And while YOU might think it would be a pleasureable career choice. Not many of the pumping moms I know of enjoy it so much as *tolerate* it to feed their infants.

And I'm not against this idea mind you. I am confronted with the realities of breastmilk supply issues, pumping, banked milk, formula and every combination of the above on a daily basis. It's not as simple as you make it.

And BTW, not all healthcare is privately funded in the US.
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#168 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 05:14 PM
 
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Does anyone really think that the money and work put into formula and its consequences is greater than what it would cost to get a milk bank program going? I doubt it. I will, however, when I get a bit of spare time, look at the numbers and come up with a more detailed proposal. I think I will stick to Canada for this since it is simpler (smaller population and already established pulic health care system). The US is definitely more of a challenge, but the obstacles to a project like this are things that are in desperate need of being changed anyway. Seeing things as impossible to change is not being realist. Societies are made by people and can be changed by people. The main problem is people who see society as something outside of them like some separate, overarching structure.

As for doing it as a career, it has its perks. Many people would find it easier to stay home with their kids or even go to school or work part-time while making a living pumping than many other jobs women often end up doing.

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#169 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 07:13 PM
 
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The reason we shouldn't be paying women to pump is that doing so is an incentive for them to take free WIC formula for their own babies and sell their breastmilk.
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#170 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 07:29 PM
 
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The reason we shouldn't be paying women to pump is that doing so is an incentive for them to take free WIC formula for their own babies and sell their breastmilk.
Now THAT would be sad.
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#171 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 07:41 PM
 
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Well, I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore lactivist, but I would say, Yes, I could still be friends with this person. I mean if the person and you get along, why not? There is a need for formula, in certain rare cases. Actually it is a blessing it exists. I would just try to focus on that
me, too. well said.
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#172 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 08:01 PM
 
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The reason we shouldn't be paying women to pump is that doing so is an incentive for them to take free WIC formula for their own babies and sell their breastmilk.
Good point, pook. One I had not thought of. And another example of how this "it would be so simple!" attitude is naive and unrealistic. Not saying it would be impossible, but the challenges are numerous.
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#173 of 175 Old 08-03-2008, 08:12 PM
 
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Do people do that??? Egad!
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#174 of 175 Old 08-04-2008, 03:14 PM
 
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Now THAT would be sad.
I totally agree with that one!
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#175 of 175 Old 08-08-2008, 05:26 PM
 
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Well I exclusively pump for my daughter and while I produce an excess of what she eats every day, I'm freezing it so we'll have some as back-up for when we need it. Plus, I tolerate pumping because I want my daughter to have breast milk but I'm only doing it for her. I couldn't imagine pumping for a living. It's definitely not my favourite thing to do.
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