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#61 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 08:41 PM
 
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I can't imagine not putting a newborn babe to my breast... even if it meant formula. I'm glad I didn't have to make that choice.

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#62 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 08:59 PM
 
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It makes me really sad that she's so blatantly and obviously against working mothers. Some of us are the breadwinners in a 2-parent relationship, it's a cost of feminism. I have little choice but to nurse when I'm home and bottlefeed pumped breastmilk when I'm at work. And trust me, it's a LOT of work, it would be a lot easier to give up and feed formula, but I (and countless thousand other mothers everyday) pump because giving breastmilk is important to us. Just as important as it is to her. Maybe, possibly, a working, pumping mother could even be considered MORE devoted to nursing because of the obstacles to presented to us.
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#63 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 09:36 PM
 
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In my life as a working mom, I realize that it just doesn't occur to *some* people that moms might work. My DDs school is certainly like this.:

I was very glad to have had 6 months mat leave with both child, after that it had to be a combo of BF and EBM from a bottle. DD#1 had some formula because she weaned herself @ 11 months.

We do the best we can with the situations we find ourselves in.
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#64 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by _betsy_ View Post
It makes me really sad that she's so blatantly and obviously against working mothers. Some of us are the breadwinners in a 2-parent relationship, it's a cost of feminism. I have little choice but to nurse when I'm home and bottlefeed pumped breastmilk when I'm at work. And trust me, it's a LOT of work, it would be a lot easier to give up and feed formula, but I (and countless thousand other mothers everyday) pump because giving breastmilk is important to us. Just as important as it is to her. Maybe, possibly, a working, pumping mother could even be considered MORE devoted to nursing because of the obstacles to presented to us.
Again... if she'd said something that was taken as being against breastFEEDING (as many people seem to think she was being against breastMILK as important) as important than someone who has killed themselves sacrificing their time and energy to nurse with no supply, so that their child survived on formula but thrived at the breast anyway might feel she was anti-her struggle. She's not... she's not blatently against anyone's struggle from that one statement. She is just saying where she places her value for her child in her situation.

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Maybe, possibly, a working, pumping mother could even be considered MORE devoted to nursing because of the obstacles to presented to us.
The section I bolded could be rewritten... "Maybe, possibly, a mother who nurses day and night even though she has to prepare formula and know that her child is growing because of formula because her breasts don't make the milk that her child would biologically normally be getting could even be considered MORE devoted to nursing because of the obstacles to presented to us"

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I have little choice but to nurse when I'm home and bottlefeed pumped breastmilk when I'm at work.
So you are making the best possible choice for your child based on your situation. GOOD!!! (And by the way I think it is a *huge* sacrifice, I've done the eping thing day and night though not nearly as long as others on this board... I do not discount that at all). I know personally a Mom who was a WOHM Mom not by choice who had the option to either exclusively pump HER milk for HER baby or have another Mom (the caregiver of her child) nurse HER baby with the other mothers milk. She chose nursing direct from the tap for her baby, even though it wasn't her milk because for her situation and her child that was what was best. That doesn't make either of you wrong or not good enough or whatever... it's a different perspective because we all have different values, different children, and different life situations.

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#65 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 09:57 PM
 
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I would choose breastmilk from a bottle.There have been numerous times that we've gone through an illness and recovered faster or the newborn never got sick so the antibodies are most important to me.I've seen FF moms who cradled thier babies in the same fashion as I cradle my own nurslings, heck I've done it with other people's babies when I've babysat.If you are watching and bonding you can read the cues that baby has had enough to eat so you don't have to overfeed.
it is an interesting question since I know we have also been able to see movies without a peep because I nursed during them.

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#66 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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Just another factor to throw out there... we've only focused on baby through this.

If breastfeeding meant less/no PPD, or breastfeeding meant no breast cancer, or breastfeeding meant she could control her diabetes or heart disease better... and I'm sure there are more... that's something to consider as well.

All of those things happening to Mom would have an impact of some sort that was negative for the baby (those things happening to her instead of being prevented by breastfeeding is what I meant, just realized the first time I posted it wasn't worded correctly).

I'm still not saying it's black and white, I don't think anything about this is... but it's just another thing to consider when making this choice. There isn't a right or wrong one, it's way too big for that.

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#67 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 10:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
hmm ok so you know how hormones are released when you bf? would those same hormones be released feeding formula at the breast? b/c i think that would factor into my decision too.
when i answered the question, i assumed that BFing would be exactly the same in this scenario as far as how it would feel to me/affect me, and how DD would respond to it and be affected by it, and that the only difference would be that the substance secreted is formula. and under those circumstances, i would breastfeed, hands down, no question.

breastfeeding has changed my life and the whole way i think about my body--it's something powerful my body can do to nurture a human being who grew inside my body. i don't see how that would be different just because my breasts produced formula. i really don't.

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#68 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 10:29 PM
 
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okay, i thought of an analogy. say you could have a natural birth, a glorious unmedicated homebirth, which would have the same medical risks as a c-section. but the hormones, the physical sensations, the emotions, the bonding, the ambience, the spiritual aspect, the effect on your body--would be EXACTLY those of a natural birth.

now say you could have a c/s and the risks would be exactly like those of a natural birth--which are to say lesser. but you have to go into an OR under bright lights, be pumped full of drugs, never labor, be separated from your baby for a coupe hours afterward, and have a major abdominal surgery to recover from.

which would you choose?

i would choose the natural birth. and for all the same reasons, i would choose breastfeeding over breastmilk.

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#69 of 200 Old 11-03-2008, 11:40 PM
 
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^^ Interesting, because I've always thought of formula and c-sections as analogous. Both are undeniably necessary in some cases, even life-saving, but should be far more rare than they are, and every effort should be made to avoid both through education and support whenever possible.

But I digress.
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#70 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 12:03 AM
 
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^^ Interesting, because I've always thought of formula and c-sections as analogous. Both are undeniably necessary in some cases, even life-saving, but should be far more rare than they are, and every effort should be made to avoid both through education and support whenever possible.

But I digress.
yes, exactly! i think of them as analogous also...

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#71 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 12:23 AM
 
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I was a total failure at pumping. so lucky to have the daycare a block from work, but I totally understand the working mom issue. For me, it would have been anything that came out of me to the kid. If I'd had to pump all her milk I bet we would have ended up on formula anyway. I admit to a bit of laziness on my part--formula mixing, pumping, etc. All equally time consuming and bothersome to me. Thank goodness I got around it all.

Absolutely interesting hypothetical situation.

I wonder--if formula could come from the mom (not by sns), would there be formula banks as well. hmmmmmmm.
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#72 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 12:37 AM
 
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the hormones, the physical sensations, the emotions, the bonding, the ambience, the spiritual aspect, the effect on your body....and for all the same reasons, i would choose breastfeeding over breastmilk.
Does that mean that you think your bond with your baby is that much better than mine is from EP'ing? I can guarantee you, and would bet you on my life, I bonded just as well to my babe and had every spiritual connection and emotion under the sun as a bf'ing-from-the-tap mama did. And it's really, really sad to think that so many mothers believe that without their breast, they would feel so differently about their child. If I was more attached, more in love, more devoted to her I think my head would explode! Which is honestly a huge reason why I put myself through nearly 2 years of pumping for her. It's a real slap in the face to insinuate that mothers who bottle feed could never understand the special bonding and relationship that nursing mothers have to their babies. Really think about what you're saying. Are you saying you love your child more than I do, or they love you more than mine does me? I mean this without anger; it doesn't make me angry because I know it's not true, but it does make me want to discuss it. I was breastfed at the breast by my mother, and have nearly zero attachment or emotional connection to her. And I do see *plenty* of nursing mothers who have attachment difficulty, sometimes even caused by difficultes breastfeeding, and many who (unfortunately) quit because they hate it- or continue despite hating it. So by no means is it the all-encompassing experience of maternal perfection for everyone. Don't get me wrong. I'm a HUGE bf'ing advocate! I would have loved to be able to nurse from the tap. But when it doesn't work that way, no mother should be told that their fundamental connection to their child is less than another's.

It is an interesting discussion and I hope my words aren't taken offensively.

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#73 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 12:55 AM
 
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Does that mean that you think your bond with your baby is that much better than mine is from EP'ing? I can guarantee you, and would bet you on my life, I bonded just as well to my babe and had every spiritual connection and emotion under the sun as a bf'ing-from-the-tap mama did. And it's really, really sad to think that so many mothers believe that without their breast, they would feel so differently about their child. If I was more attached, more in love, more devoted to her I think my head would explode! Which is honestly a huge reason why I put myself through nearly 2 years of pumping for her. It's a real slap in the face to insinuate that mothers who bottle feed could never understand the special bonding and relationship that nursing mothers have to their babies. Really think about what you're saying. Are you saying you love your child more than I do, or they love you more than mine does me?
of course not. i don't think that any more than i think that women who had peaceful natural births are more in love with their children than women, like me, who had traumatic, gut-wrenching c-sections. of course i love my daughter. i love the hell out of her. but i'd still choose the natural birth if i could (and BTW i can't).

the point of the analogy is to say, look, let's put the natural/biological mode (whether of birth or of infant feeding) on one hand. and let's put have the health benefits we are used to focusing on, on the other, so we can see what OTHER benefits there are to doing things the "normal" way.

if you could separate things out that way, you might just find that there are advantages to the natural, biological, NORMAL mode that are not obvious when you're ONLY focused on certain facets of the benefits we are used to thinking about.

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#74 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 12:56 AM
 
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Strongly disagree. You can think the difference in how it would impact your child in your situation between breastfeeding and bottlefeeding is greater than the difference between breastmilk and formula in how it would impact your child and your situation and still believe breastmilk if all was created equal (ie not having to choose method, either bm/formula from the breast or bm/formula from the bottle) is far superior in substance to formula.
Huh?

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#75 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 12:56 AM
 
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Does that mean that you think your bond with your baby is that much better than mine is from EP'ing?
Nope... but I think that MY bond with MY baby is different because I breastfed straight from the tap and not ep'd longer than we did.

I was "supposed" to have PPD. And by that I mean I had plenty of flags, and it was a real possibility for me, so I really was watching myself and was watched at the start. The *only* time I felt depressed and out of control and slipping is when my doctor told me I was going to have to stop breastfeeding. It was really that important to my mental health. The hormones, the nurturing my baby, the whole package. Absolutely hands down different for me then if I was EPing.

My DS has genetic health issues which would've made him get very sick very quickly on formula. But possibly not on an elemental formula (I'll never know, he's never had it to try)... if my option was never put him to the breast and experience all that comes with that for him and for me but still have him get breastmilk or put him to the breast with elemental formula so he wouldn't be sick (they aren't even CLOSE to the same, just that for my child regular formula wouldn't have been an option that would've kept him alive/thriving)... I don't know... I can tell you that we all have the things that keep us going, and breastfeeding was a huge reason my mental health stayed good enough to be a good parent to my son after he was born, both for physical (hormones/brain chemicals) and emotional reasons.

People are making this way too personal. We have our battles to fight. We fight them because they are what is worth it to us. Noone is saying that breastmilk and formula are the same... we are just questioning what part of the equation comes up higher for our OWN personal circumstances.

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#76 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 01:03 AM
 
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I'm a working mom who pumped and is still nursing. FOR ME, I'd choose formula from the breast. The physical & emotional experience of nursing, even during all those sleepless months of reverse cycling, were some of the most precious moments of my life and I can't imagine giving them up.

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#77 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 01:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by _betsy_ View Post
It makes me really sad that she's so blatantly and obviously against working mothers. Some of us are the breadwinners in a 2-parent relationship, it's a cost of feminism. I have little choice but to nurse when I'm home and bottlefeed pumped breastmilk when I'm at work. And trust me, it's a LOT of work, it would be a lot easier to give up and feed formula, but I (and countless thousand other mothers everyday) pump because giving breastmilk is important to us. Just as important as it is to her. Maybe, possibly, a working, pumping mother could even be considered MORE devoted to nursing because of the obstacles to presented to us.
This.

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Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
In my life as a working mom, I realize that it just doesn't occur to *some* people that moms might work. My DDs school is certainly like this.:

I was very glad to have had 6 months mat leave with both child, after that it had to be a combo of BF and EBM from a bottle. DD#1 had some formula because she weaned herself @ 11 months.

We do the best we can with the situations we find ourselves in.
And this.

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Does that mean that you think your bond with your baby is that much better than mine is from EP'ing? I can guarantee you, and would bet you on my life, I bonded just as well to my babe and had every spiritual connection and emotion under the sun as a bf'ing-from-the-tap mama did. And it's really, really sad to think that so many mothers believe that without their breast, they would feel so differently about their child. If I was more attached, more in love, more devoted to her I think my head would explode! Which is honestly a huge reason why I put myself through nearly 2 years of pumping for her. It's a real slap in the face to insinuate that mothers who bottle feed could never understand the special bonding and relationship that nursing mothers have to their babies. Really think about what you're saying. Are you saying you love your child more than I do, or they love you more than mine does me? I mean this without anger; it doesn't make me angry because I know it's not true, but it does make me want to discuss it. I was breastfed at the breast by my mother, and have nearly zero attachment or emotional connection to her. And I do see *plenty* of nursing mothers who have attachment difficulty, sometimes even caused by difficultes breastfeeding, and many who (unfortunately) quit because they hate it- or continue despite hating it. So by no means is it the all-encompassing experience of maternal perfection for everyone. Don't get me wrong. I'm a HUGE bf'ing advocate! I would have loved to be able to nurse from the tap. But when it doesn't work that way, no mother should be told that their fundamental connection to their child is less than another's.

It is an interesting discussion and I hope my words aren't taken offensively.
This, too.

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#78 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 01:08 AM
 
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Huh?
Sorry, it's wordy, and probably muddled together... let's try again.

I can see that there are differences between breastfeeding and bottlefeeding and that there are advantages to my child to the actual act of breastfeeding and disadvantages to the act of bottle feeding (for this example this is Option A, choosing breastfeeding formula thereby placing the greater importance for my child in my situation on feeding method).

I can see that there are differences between breastmilk and formula and that there are advantages to my child to having breastmilk and disadvantages to my child to having formula (for this example this is Option B, choosing bottle feeding breastmilk thereby placing the great importance for my child in my situation on feeding substance).

I was assuming advantages (make it a number, a level, whatever) minus disadvantages is the difference between the two.

Just because I think Option A means my child loses more doesn't mean I think there are no risks to Option B or that I think that there is no difference between the two variables in Option B. I can firmly believe that breastmilk is superior for a baby than formula and still think my child will lose more by not breastfeeding, for whatever reason.

I hope that cleared it up, I just don't think it's either you choose breastmilk in every single situation no matter what or else you don't think breastmilk is different and better for baby's than formula. There are situations that aren't black and white.

ETA: I am not saying the above is how I personally feel, only that someone who has said formula from breasts doesn't necessarily think formula is better or even equal to breastmilk.

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#79 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 01:11 AM
 
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i would definately do the homebirth i think... but this may be b/c i have had a c section and birth is something i desperately want. and i think i would choose formula from the breast as well. maybe b/c i pump now and i hate it and wish i didn't have to. i don't know i would want to take the risks of the birth or the formula though... just b/c i want them yk?
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#80 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 04:09 AM
 
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I would feed my baby breastmilk in a bottle, because it is the best way to keep him healthy. But I would do so in the most loving, nurturing way I could. No propping. No feeding at arms-length. I would "nurse" him with the bottle. Many, many mamas do this every day! I'm sure my mama (who fed me formula) "nursed" me in this way as well!

But I can understand why a woman would instinctually want to feed her baby from her breasts, even if it were formula. It is an instinct for sure.
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#81 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 07:27 AM
 
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okay, i thought of an analogy. say you could have a natural birth, a glorious unmedicated homebirth, which would have the same medical risks as a c-section. but the hormones, the physical sensations, the emotions, the bonding, the ambience, the spiritual aspect, the effect on your body--would be EXACTLY those of a natural birth.

now say you could have a c/s and the risks would be exactly like those of a natural birth--which are to say lesser. but you have to go into an OR under bright lights, be pumped full of drugs, never labor, be separated from your baby for a coupe hours afterward, and have a major abdominal surgery to recover from.

which would you choose?

i would choose the natural birth. and for all the same reasons, i would choose breastfeeding over breastmilk.
I would choose the c-section. The safety of my baby is more important then any magical natural birth feelings for myself. I would also choose the breastmilk from the bottle because yet again the health benefits for my child are more important to me then any benefits for myself.

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#82 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 08:37 AM
 
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I think one of the things that is an unknown in this hypothetical question is the actual impact of feeding at the breast. We know something about the goodness of breastmilk because scientists have analysed it and studied it. But very few scientists or doctors have even thought about the mode of delivery and how it affects the baby (more work has been done on mom.)

Brian Palmer has done some work about sleep apnea (which can cause high blood pressure in later life) and breastfeeding. As a dentist he feels that feeding at the breast shapes the head/neck differently, preventing dental, jaw and sleep apnea issues.

I'd still choose breastmilk over feeding formula at the breast, but the question (and Weissinger's answer) does make me wonder what we don't know about mode of delivery!
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#83 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 11:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by triscuitsmom View Post
Sorry, it's wordy, and probably muddled together... let's try again.

I can see that there are differences between breastfeeding and bottlefeeding and that there are advantages to my child to the actual act of breastfeeding and disadvantages to the act of bottle feeding (for this example this is Option A, choosing breastfeeding formula thereby placing the greater importance for my child in my situation on feeding method).

I can see that there are differences between breastmilk and formula and that there are advantages to my child to having breastmilk and disadvantages to my child to having formula (for this example this is Option B, choosing bottle feeding breastmilk thereby placing the great importance for my child in my situation on feeding substance).

I was assuming advantages (make it a number, a level, whatever) minus disadvantages is the difference between the two.

Just because I think Option A means my child loses more doesn't mean I think there are no risks to Option B or that I think that there is no difference between the two variables in Option B. I can firmly believe that breastmilk is superior for a baby than formula and still think my child will lose more by not breastfeeding, for whatever reason.

I hope that cleared it up, I just don't think it's either you choose breastmilk in every single situation no matter what or else you don't think breastmilk is different and better for baby's than formula. There are situations that aren't black and white.

ETA: I am not saying the above is how I personally feel, only that someone who has said formula from breasts doesn't necessarily think formula is better or even equal to breastmilk.
I do see what you are saying (now, I do, lol), and I agree with the bolded. I also think that the question should make us examine our underlying motivations when we criticize FFing by choice.

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#84 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 11:18 AM
 
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this is a question that sparked internal debate in LLL

Me? i would choose formula from my breasts 100%

I had to supplement my first after poor bf advice, i used an sns and found the true meaning of "breast" feeding :
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#85 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 02:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
I would choose the c-section. The safety of my baby is more important then any magical natural birth feelings for myself. I would also choose the breastmilk from the bottle because yet again the health benefits for my child are more important to me then any benefits for myself.
but if you have wretched birth trauma, and don't get the benefit of bonding hormones you get from laboring, and your babe is separated from you, perhaps compromising breastfeeding...how is that NOT risky for the baby? how is having an unnaturally detached mama NOT bad for baby, too?

there is no magical dividing line between the health of the baby and the health of me. they cannot be easily separated. it's a package deal. that is my whole point. for each woman, the risk-benefit analysis will be different. but it is a WHOLE picture. it's not so simple as, "oh, feeding at the breast is better for mom, but bottlefeeding BM is better for baby, so am i going to be selfish or selfless here?"

dissertating wife of Boo, mama of one "mookie" lovin' 2 year old girl! intactlact:: CTA until 7/10 FF 1501dc
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#86 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 02:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by readytobedone View Post
but if you have wretched birth trauma, and don't get the benefit of bonding hormones you get from laboring, and your babe is separated from you, perhaps compromising breastfeeding...how is that NOT risky for the baby? how is having an unnaturally detached mama NOT bad for baby, too?

there is no magical dividing line between the health of the baby and the health of me. they cannot be easily separated. it's a package deal. that is my whole point. for each woman, the risk-benefit analysis will be different. but it is a WHOLE picture. it's not so simple as, "oh, feeding at the breast is better for mom, but bottlefeeding BM is better for baby, so am i going to be selfish or selfless here?"

I actually made the decision to have a c-section this time for the safety of my baby. I am starting to dread it, but I am not going to risk my baby's life for a vaginal birth. For me, and this is only for me, I would rather have a birth experience I hated with less risk to the baby, then an amazing birth experience that would put my baby in danger. Yes there are risks with both options, but I am choosing what I view as the lesser of them. I can totally understand if someone else would choose differently.

For me my dd reacted to horrible to formula that I would do anything to avoid it. I both bottle fed and breastfed and to be honest the bottlefeeding was just as wonderful as breastfeeding for me. So that is why I would choose bottlefeeding breastmilk over breastfeeding formula.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
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#87 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 02:38 PM
 
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breastmilk from a bottle.

i cannot even begine to describe how upsetting this question is.

superior nutrition while cuddling extra close- which you can ABSOLUTELY do without being at breast...

or inferior nutrition that could lead to multiple medical conditions down the road to be able to have a nursing bond????

The attachment reached through physically nursing your baby can be closer mimicked through other routes than the nutrition and benefits of breastmilk can through formula.

i am insulted by this question and am off to write a letter to this woman.

my my... what wonderful things this does to all us lactivists out there shouting- "give your baby the best nutrition, the gold standard, the natural nutrition!"

I am just this much more happy that I do not go to anything supported by the LLL.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
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#88 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 03:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tallulahma View Post
breastmilk from a bottle.

i cannot even begine to describe how upsetting this question is.

superior nutrition while cuddling extra close- which you can ABSOLUTELY do without being at breast...

or inferior nutrition that could lead to multiple medical conditions down the road to be able to have a nursing bond????

The attachment reached through physically nursing your baby can be closer mimicked through other routes than the nutrition and benefits of breastmilk can through formula.

i am insulted by this question and am off to write a letter to this woman.

my my... what wonderful things this does to all us lactivists out there shouting- "give your baby the best nutrition, the gold standard, the natural nutrition!"

I am just this much more happy that I do not go to anything supported by the LLL.

: : : :

Kirsten - wife to Mark and co-sleeping, breastfeeding mother to , :, and
Photography, including Breastfeeding Photography, in my Homepage.
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#89 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tallulahma View Post
breastmilk from a bottle.

i cannot even begine to describe how upsetting this question is.

superior nutrition while cuddling extra close- which you can ABSOLUTELY do without being at breast...

or inferior nutrition that could lead to multiple medical conditions down the road to be able to have a nursing bond????

The attachment reached through physically nursing your baby can be closer mimicked through other routes than the nutrition and benefits of breastmilk can through formula.

i am insulted by this question and am off to write a letter to this woman.
my my... what wonderful things this does to all us lactivists out there shouting- "give your baby the best nutrition, the gold standard, the natural nutrition!"

I am just this much more happy that I do not go to anything supported by the LLL.
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#90 of 200 Old 11-04-2008, 10:13 PM
 
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Just to clarify, her answer is in no way La Leche League's position on this impossible issue.

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