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#1 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay..who is doing it, who is not? I decided I don't want to. I know I am going get some opposition, both my DH and DS are circ'ed. I don't really want to hear all the reasons we shouldn't/should do it, I can see an influx from the Case against Circ board..... ( I know the reasons)...just looking to see how everyones partner feels about it. How would you ahndle it if your husband wanted to??

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#2 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 11:42 AM
 
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I think it's terrible and don't want to. DH insists that we do. I told him I would go along with it under 2 conditions 1- He has to watch one first 2-He has to go with our son and comfort him while its being done. I hope dh changes his mind after seeing one. If he still insists on doing it I will have anesthesia (local) for my baby. Honestly though, I can't bear the thought of it! Thank goodness the first two were girls.
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#3 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 12:09 PM
 
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Noah isn't circ'ed and none of my sons will ever be. My dh is circ'ed and until I read about it during my first pregnancy I had always just assumed we'd do it. It was kind of a battle with my dh, but now he is glad we didn't do it. My MIL thinks it was the wrong decision, but who the h@ll cares what she thinks about my son's penis. It's really none of her business.

Kabes, I am so sorry you are in that position. I know that when I was dealing with dh I showed him a bunch of stuff on the web about it. I don't have any of the sites offhand but I know there are pictures and they are really horrible. Also, if you do have a son, after his birth I would ask your dh if he honestly looks at his son's penis and thinks there is something wrong with it that requires surgery.

Chrissy, lucky mama to Noah (9), Lilah (6), Rowan (3) and Laney (1).
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#4 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is a link I got off the Circ board, I think it is a video that shows one being done...maybe your DH can watch it. I don't want to....so I have no idea if it is graphic or what...


http://www.intact.ca/vidphil.htm


Caroline


Edited....I glanced at the site...only look at this if you realy want your husband to know what relly happens..I didn't look too much, but wow....
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#5 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 01:13 PM
 
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I deferred to dh for Cullen... he wanted him to "look like daddy", as stupid as that is, and I didn't do much research, and went along with it, and regret it horribly.

Aside from the actual procedure, with ds, the bit of foreskin left repeatedly would try to readhere, in small places, and because it's not like a totally uncirc'ed, it would easily get accidentally retracted and be injured. Poor baby had more than a few periods of an ouchy penis in his first few years.

This time, knowing much more, and knowing this is another boy, I just told him we were NOT putting this boy through it. When I expressed myself strongly, he just accepted it and said ok.
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#6 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 01:25 PM
 
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We dont circ. If my husband wanted to, honestly I would tell him flat out its just not going to happen. I know thats not the best approach with everyone though, but it does work with my DH. I also gave him some info from Mothers Against Circ...(the website) showing that an intact male has more sensitivity during intercourse, so therefore more pleasure. He thought that was interesting. Thats what ended up making him feel more comfortable with leaving our boys intact. I personally feel there are much better reasons than that though.
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#7 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 01:39 PM
 
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No way!! Thankfully my DH totally agrees with me (he is circ'd by the way). Our friends and family think we're crazy, but just as someone else here said...who cares what they think about our son's penis. It really is no one else's business. I do NOT think it is okay to put a newborn through that just so he'll "look like everyone else".
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#8 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 01:51 PM
 
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We've talked about this already and my husband is just fine with not circing if we have a boy. I'm glad it's a non-issue for us. He's asked me not to share any of the details of how the procedure is done with him, he'd rather not know what his parents put him through.
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#9 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 02:03 PM
 
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We don't circumcize. In the beginning neither of us had strong feelings about *not* doing it (we didn't know much) but it just seemed pointless and too much of a hassle to bother, so we didn't (it probably helped that no one was pressuring us to do it, and we had a homebirth so nobody was asking if we wanted to.) At the time, though, if dh had really wanted to I'm sure I would have gone along with it, because like I say I just didn't know any better.

There is no way I would allow it now, no matter what my husband thought about it. Since then I've actually put some thought into it, and I just believe that my son's rights to his own body come before my husband's rights to his son's body. My feeling is that *no one* has the right to make the choice for someone else to permanently alter their body by removing one of their healthy, functioning, valuable body parts. Edited to add: I don't believe I have the right to allow it, either.
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#10 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 02:17 PM
 
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Caroline- Thanks for the link! I can't go there, but I will show it th dh. I can't even go to the Circ. board anymore. It makes me sick to think about putting a baby through that.

Lynsey- I usually just put my foot down too but since I've already done that (re: homebirth), I don't think I should 'press my luck'.
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#11 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I brought it up to my husband again, and his thought is that our oldest is circ'ed and he doesn't know how he feels about making them "different" from each other. I countered with the fact that our oldest is also cross-eyed, does that mean if this one comes out with straight eyes we should surgically have them crossed just so the boys will look the same??? He kind of thought for a minute, and agreed to re-open the conversation. But he stated that he is definatly FOR doing it at this point.

I don't really want to put my foot down on it...we really don't do that with anything in our marriage. These are not MY kids, they are OUR kids, and we have to discuss this...but I can manipulate!!!

Well..it;s a start..

Caroline
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#12 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 02:31 PM
 
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We circ'd Donny, because we just never gave it a second thought (dumb, dumb, dumb) and he has had the same issues as Plantmommy's son. Readhering, adhesions, UGH. His penis just doesn't look normal. It doesn't look circumcised, but it sure doesn't look intact, either.

We regret it every day.

When I got pregnant this time, I researched and researched, and decided there is no way we are circ'ing Finn. Regardless of what my husband thought (he's circ'd). But when I told husband about my choice and gave him some facts, he simply said "Ok. I don't want it done to him either. There's no need."

We feel bad for Donny!
I hope he doesn't continue to have issues with his penis. He has had so much trauma down there, aside from the screwed up circ!
In November, my husband was holding him up over the kitchen sink to wash his hands, and he slid down, and the cupboard handles below the sink caught him on the scrotum and ripped the scrotum right down to exposed testicle. He had 17 stitches to his scrotum. My husband nearly passed out, honest to goodness. He has yet to bring himself to look at the wound, even though you can barely see the scar now.
Poor little guy!
He healed fine, and they think his testicle will be perfectly fine in the future. Hopefully.
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#13 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 02:33 PM
 
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We thought we would circ before ds was born, but decided not to when he was 2 days old.

About the 'looking like daddy' thing: That was my dh's reason initially as well. When ds was a few weeks old, I was talking to dh's sister and she asked if he had circed ds. I said no. She then mentioned that their father, who was born in another country, is not circed either. Dh had no idea! So apparently not looking like his daddy didn't harm dh that much, considering he was almost 30 years old before he realized it!

And yes, your argument about the crossed eyes thing is what I would be using. If you have big breasts, and have a dd with small breasts, are you going to get her implants so she looks like you? It's really a ridiculous reason when you think about it.
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#14 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 02:35 PM
 
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Oh my gosh, poor poor Donny!!!

Chrissy, lucky mama to Noah (9), Lilah (6), Rowan (3) and Laney (1).
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#15 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 03:03 PM
 
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Wow, Caroline, that's tough. I think about it this way... if I had a sister, and she had been circumcised (had the hood of the clitoris removed,) would I have wanted my parents to do the same to me *only* so that she wouldn't be alone in it? Well, to be honest, no.
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#16 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 03:24 PM
 
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Kind of off topic - Its funny how quickly your son's uncircumcised penis becomes "normal" looking to you! I guess I see ds a lot more than dh, but dh sure looks weird to me now!
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#17 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 03:46 PM
 
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Absolutely no circumcision planned for this baby, and my son, age 7, is intact as well. It seems that with even a small bit of education, people could be easily convinced to leave boys alone! Sadly that's not the case. But fortunately Christopher's father, who is circed, actually broached the topic with me and it was a no-brainer once we read just one article about it.

Now I'm expecting boy #2 with my new husband and he is also circed BUT was immediately convinced of the wisdom of leaving little boys alone. I frankly can't understand the mindset of men wanted to have it done, though my brother is one of these. My SIL remains upset that it was done to their son.

That said, what continues to irk me is the misinformation. I know of one woman who did not circ her son, on the insistance of his father. Good, right? Well she took no steps to inform herself of the care (or rather, non-care) required by an intact penis and insisted that he regularly and thoroughly pull back his foreskin and scrub, scrub, scrub. He complained that she always had to nag him to do it.

Can you guess the result? Just this month he was circumcised at the age of 8. Sadly, I'm afraid that she will tell the tale of how her son "had" to be circumcised, adding to the misinformation.

I know of more than one child that was circed based solely on the "evidence" of a coworker, whose son similarly "had" to be circed. I don't know the details, but I suspect they were similar to the other case. I wish I could tell the mother of the 8-year-old the correct information, but at this point it would probably just make her feel bad. I just can't understand why she didn't inform herself!
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#18 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 04:26 PM
 
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Caroline,

I completely agree. Riley, Paityn and #3 are our children, not mine. But the thing is, Rileys and this ones (if I have a boy) body are NOT ours. They belong to them and them only. My husband nor I have the right to make that decision without their consent.
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#19 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 04:48 PM
 
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ITA Lynsey!

Chrissy, lucky mama to Noah (9), Lilah (6), Rowan (3) and Laney (1).
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#20 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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We will not circumcise a boy. After all, he has no one in our house to compare himself to. We also have no religious considerations. Quakers don't much care about the state of one's penis.

I'm sure our moms have no opinions, either, and all of our friends who have even asked about it (which may be 1 or 2) were supportive.

I have a friend whose older son is circ'ed and her younger not, and they have had no difficulties with potty training, questions, etc.

A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs and always uses 2x the amount of local anesthesia, but the babes still get fussy because they can feel something going on down there. I can't imagine what it must feel like when the anesthesia wears off, though, and then you put ammonia in a wound? Owie.

j

: mama to T 9/04 and E 11/08
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#21 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 05:59 PM
 
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"Kind of off topic - Its funny how quickly your son's uncircumcised penis becomes "normal" looking to you!"

Reading this reminded me of when I saw my baby nephew's circ'd penis, I was embarrassed because it looked so naked and exposed and... well, phallic. With an intact penis you don't see the glans unless it's erect. But circumcised boys always have an exposed glans. I guess to me (and this was kind of a shock because I hadn't expected to feel this way) it seemed like this little boy's sexuality was on display. Whereas when I look at my son's penises I don't feel that way -- they have a covering, like my daughter's private parts.
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#22 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 06:06 PM
 
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Jen wrote: "A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs"

One has to wonder why he does them then?
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#23 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 06:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueviolet
Jen wrote: "A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs"

One has to wonder why he does them then?
hear hear, I finally said straight out to her "if you hate doing them, why do you? You're a full-fledged member of this practice now, not a resident, you can do what you want!". I will keep encouraging her to tell her patients that she finds them unnecessary and that they would have to go to someone else if they wanted them done. Up til now she has been a resident at a major hospital and had little choice. If she lost a patient or two that way, I don't know if it would be a real loss. She is a super doctor otherwise, and a lot of patients are actually following her to her new practice now that her residency is done!

: mama to T 9/04 and E 11/08
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#24 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 06:26 PM
 
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DS who is two in not circed, DH is. We hadn't been dating that long when the subject came up (I have NO idea how LOL!) and I just told future DH that no way in HELL would I ever agree to do cosmetic surgery on a newborn. Luckily he didn't feel passionately about it either way but honestly I think that could have been a deal breaker for me.

Steph

Steph~~momma to Rhys 2002, Niamh 2004, Isla 2007 and Deirdre 2009
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#25 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 07:02 PM
 
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No Circ here, either. DS is intact and this baby will be, too. I had to put my foot down with DH (he circ'd his first child) but I feel strongly that it's not our decision to make. It's a cosmetic procedure, not a medical emergency.

Glad to see there are so many intact boys running around out there.
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#26 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2baldie
Caroline,

I completely agree. Riley, Paityn and #3 are our children, not mine. But the thing is, Rileys and this ones (if I have a boy) body are NOT ours. They belong to them and them only. My husband nor I have the right to make that decision without their consent.

I hear this line of reasoning a lot, and I have to say that as the parent, we do have that right, if we truly think we are doing better for them. I am not saying circ'ing IS better, just that my husband believes it is. I mean, if my 5 year old was to say that she only wanted to eat cookies for the next year, should I say okay because it is her body?

I am not saying it is the same thing, just stating why this line wouldn't work in our house. We are the parents, we do have the right to make decisions for our child....which is why we are in this predicament now! DH really thinks this is the right thing to do...of course, we haven't gone over all the info yet, that is tomorrow!

Caroline
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#27 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 07:27 PM
 
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I think, as a parent, I have the responsibility to protect my child (by not letting him eat junk food all the time, for example) but I don't have the right to alter his body as I see fit (like tattooing him, for example). (maybe the legal right, but not an ethical one)

I can respect your husband's point of view if he honestly believes circ'ing will "protect" his son, but I hope more research will change his mind.
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#28 of 78 Old 06-29-2004, 08:01 PM
 
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Right, Caroline. For instance, my son dislocated his thumb badly enough that it could not be fixed without surgery. It was traumatic enough for him that if he'd had the choice he wouldn't have spent one minute in the hospital -- but I made the decision for him that he would (even though the surgery itself carried risks) so that he would not to have to go through life disabled.

Which is why I think Lynsey's statement has to be qualified thus: we do not have the right to make the decision to remove or permanently alter a normal, healthy, functioning part of another person's body without their consent. If it's about believing that the foreskin is just a useless flap of skin that harbors disease, well then education is the key. But if it's just about fashion or feeling a duty to one's society to conform, well then I'm stymied. I don't see how it's fundamentally different from female genital mutilation or foot-binding. Different in degree, perhaps, but not in kind.
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#29 of 78 Old 06-30-2004, 01:10 AM
 
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Wow, this thread is going along MUCH differently than the circ thread I started on my two mainstream twin boards, haha!!! I was attacked for putting the link to the "Where's My Foreskin?" article; can you imagine their responses if I posted a link to that video?!?

Caroline, thank you for the thread, and for the video link. I just watched the 3 minute one (second from the top) and it must be the most awful thing I have ever seen and heard. I will definitely send dh the link... to reaffirm his good decision 6 years ago with Nicolas.

We were ignorant new parents with no idea that someone wouldn't circ... Just seemed like what you do in the hospital after the birth. Never gave it a thought. Then my friend who ended up being our doula loaned me that Mothering magazine article (it had just come out, hot off the press, in the spring or summer of '98 when I was about 4 months pregnant). I read it, was astonished and convicted, and passed it to dh. Who actually read it. (He never reads parenting or marriage stuff I give him! haha) He immediately was disgusted and there was no doubt for either of us that we would NOT be circ'ing any boys, even though dh is.

Though I don't know why dh is, since his mother is from Venice Italy, where it's very uncommon to do that to a boy. I guess she wanted him to look like his American daddy, (though I can't be sure, since I've never seen my fatherin law's penis nor have asked, hee hee). My dh, too, was most convinced by the fact that the foreskin adds to sexual pleasure later in son's life, but also by the horrific procedure. (Which will now be reinforced by watching that video.) It was also easier for him, perhaps, since he remembered that his cousins and uncles in Italy most likely weren't circ'ed. He also said that he never remembered comparing penises with his dad or with other boys at school...

Oh, then I remembered my nephew is intact, and turns out his daddy is too (my brother in law). HIS mother and I had a good discussion about her decision not to, 44 years ago.

I think I'll post the link on those other boards anyway. And let you know what happens.

I'll say a prayer for you both, Caroline and Kabes, that your husbands will get enough information to make the choice to leave their beautiful boys alone.

P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.
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#30 of 78 Old 06-30-2004, 04:03 AM
 
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I always thought I would have my sons circ'd. Just seemed like the thing to do (didn't everyone do it?? ), never really researched it before. Then I met and married DH.

Never came up with the first pregnancy because we found out that DD was a girl pretty early.

I think it was about a month before DS was born, another board I was on had about 17 out of 70 of us all pregnant within about 6 weeks of each other. There was a lot of baby dust on that board. :LOL The discussion about circ'ing came up. That started a discussion between DH and I (you know how it is ) He was against (he's intact) and said it was a pointless procedure that no longer had a "purpose". We talked about it and I kind of deterred to him (not that I *really* was pro-circ anyways) because he was a little more "knowledgable" about the actual mechanics since he has one and I don't. Honestly, it really was a mutual decision to not. Radish won't be either. I think if I sent the video link (which I didn't click on, I don't need any nightmares ) to DH he'd stop talking to me. He says I always send this horrible and depressing stuff to him.

He agreed that the argument about "matching" is a crock and not a valid reason at all.

We were never pressured by anyone about it and no one in the family commented one way or another.

I can't remember if it was my OB or the hospital asked if we were circ'ing (only to find out if the procedure was needed) and we said no. Never another comment made. And when we went to our Pedi, he asked if we planned and we said no. He was like that's fine, it isn't a medically necessary procedure and explained "proper" cleaning care which of course was mainly LEAVE IT ALONE.

I rememeber a couple months later a friend asked my advice about not circ'ing (first boy after 3 girls) and she was getting a lot of pressure from family members (not her DH) about it. I was just supportive for her and was able to help her not second guess or worry about their decision not to circ.

Why do family members feel it is their right to force their parenting (and any other) views on others?? : :
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