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#1 of 24 Old 01-28-2009, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Can we talk about the Great Schism between the Western and Eastern Church?

Anyone have any good links? I'm feeling like I need to expand my understanding of it. Especially looking for perspectives from our Eastern Orthodox and Catholic members. I know that this can be a touchy subject but I'd really like to hear the different perspectives.
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#2 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 12:04 AM
 
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Well, gee, you just want to jump into the frying pan, don't you?

Here's an Orthodox take on it:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Great_Schism

A standard intro to Orthodoxy in English, The Orthodox Church by Timothy (now Metropolitan Kallistos) Ware, has a good section on the Schism. Your library should have it. Some of these things are just better from books than the internet!

Two main issues for the Orthodox are the Filioque and papal supremacy. Both are discussed in the linked article.

For the record, I'm Orthodox, raised Roman Catholic.

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#3 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 12:40 AM
 
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#4 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh thanks Tradd, I forgot about Orthdoxwiki. I own a copy of The Orthodox Church, I'll go drag it out.
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#5 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok so from the link

Quote:
The seventh canon of the Council of Ephesus declared:

It is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different (ἑτέραν) Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa.
Can someone explain why Pope Leo IX did not call an ecumenical council to discuss this with the other Bishops/Patriarchates ?
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#6 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 01:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Oh thanks Tradd, I forgot about Orthdoxwiki. I own a copy of The Orthodox Church, I'll go drag it out.
You'll want chapter 3: Byzantium II, the Great Schism, pp. 43-72.

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#7 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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k, Thanks, just got done with the link, so I;ll read that section of the book now. BRB
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#8 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 01:59 PM
 
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ok so from the link



Can someone explain why Pope Leo IX did not call an ecumenical council to discuss this with the other Bishops/Patriarchates ?
This is only a guess based on my general reading, but I suspect that he didn't think he should have to - he was trying to insist on his authority as pope. The papacy had, for a variety of reasons, been increasing in power over the years, and if he consulted, it would have been an admission that he didn't have the authority to make decisions on his own.

But someone else may be able to correct me or add more detail.

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#9 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 06:14 PM
 
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http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txc/gschism.htm

This is the site most frequently cited by our deacon ... he often includes the basics of our faith in our weekly bulletin, the Great Schism being the topic of the week not too long ago. All of the info came from here.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#10 of 24 Old 01-29-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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Sooo, what do people think of the filioque?

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#11 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 12:00 AM
 
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fili-not-oque.

Sorry . . .couldn't resist.

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#12 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 12:23 AM
 
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fili-not-oque.

Sorry . . .couldn't resist.
:

Here's an interesting tidbit; the Anglican church of Canada, in their "new" worship book, removes the filioque. BUT, they say, this doesn't mean a change in doctrine, we are still supposed to believe it:

It is supposed to make the Eastern church "feel better"

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#13 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 01:00 AM
 
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I found about this during college and wrote a paper about it. I think it is a reason for the split but one of six or more reasons. I think it is sad that the churches split. I look at it as a minor difference for myself but it opens the door for discussion.
O. K. The Pope is still the successor of St. Peter but not the head of the Church. I honestly miss not having a Pope because it is nice to know the head. The Orthodox church has a bunch of people and not just one.
We have two different Easter dates. Two calendars which is a big difference when you live one way and then switch.
The sacrament of communion is taken very serious in the Orthodox Church. You would not just go up for it if you were not prepared by fasting and current confession.
Babies get all of the sacraments at their Baptism. There is no First Communion or Confirmation like in the Catholic Church.
I love the Catholics like a first cousin or something but with my whole heart I believe that being Orthodox is the correct form of being Catholic.
There is also the whole parish dynamics that is different and Orthodox lifestyle. When you become Orthodox is is more than where you go to church or a set of beliefs. You are fasting more, going to church more, you are aware of things that are Church related. Lent takes on a whole new ball game. Orthodox are are always preparing and striving to be better. I am most comfortable being uncomfortable with myself in my faith. I always thought when I was Catholic I was a good Catholic but not so with Orthodoxy. I went off on a tangent but it is so much more than the split in 1054 or a couple of words in the creed.
Good luck finding your answers.
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#14 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I believe the filioque.
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#15 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 12:32 PM
 
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It has been over 10 years since I looked at the difference. Is the big difference the Holy Spirit coming from the Father and the son vs Father to the son or something ? Is the big debate over the words to and and ?
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#16 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 06:05 PM
 
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There is also the whole parish dynamics that is different and Orthodox lifestyle. When you become Orthodox is is more than where you go to church or a set of beliefs. You are fasting more, going to church more, you are aware of things that are Church related. Lent takes on a whole new ball game. Orthodox are are always preparing and striving to be better. I am most comfortable being uncomfortable with myself in my faith. I always thought when I was Catholic I was a good Catholic but not so with Orthodoxy.
I think many more Catholics are evolving into more traditional Catholics. Our parish has many families more like this, but not obviously orthodox, just RC. Maybe RC varies more from parish to parish? I don't know.

I do know that the Orthodox Catholics I know are much more lax than we are. Sporadic church attendence, violating basics like the use of fertility treatments or selecting Christian godparents (in the case I'm thinking of, the priest gave his blessing to a non-practicing Jew and an angry athetist), so I'm thinking that it might vary from parish to parish like RC? Again, I don't know.

Please explain filioque...
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#17 of 24 Old 01-30-2009, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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filioque is latin for and the son. Which is the word added to the creed that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son.
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#18 of 24 Old 01-31-2009, 01:25 PM
 
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I think many more Catholics are evolving into more traditional Catholics. Our parish has many families more like this, but not obviously orthodox, just RC. Maybe RC varies more from parish to parish? I don't know.

I do know that the Orthodox Catholics I know are much more lax than we are. Sporadic church attendence, violating basics like the use of fertility treatments or selecting Christian godparents (in the case I'm thinking of, the priest gave his blessing to a non-practicing Jew and an angry athetist), so I'm thinking that it might vary from parish to parish like RC? Again, I don't know.

Please explain filioque...
Just like among the RCs, you've got some flaky priests among the Orthodox. In my Orthodox parish (OCA), we've got a cradle Orthodox woman who was married to a Jew in the Orthodox Church - in a parish somewhere else - NOT mine! BIG no-no - it's a more modern thing to allow an Orthodox to get married to a non-Orthodox Christian (HAS to be baptized in the name of the Trinity, not just "in the name of Jesus" or "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" like you get among some Protestants nowadays), but unlike in the RCC, getting married in the Orthodox Church to someone who is not a baptized in the Trinity Christian (whether pagan, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) ain't supposed to happen. The priest who married this woman and her Jewish husband was defrocked for doing it, among some other things.

Just like among the RCs, you'll find some people (particularly those who are closer to their ethnic identity), who think, "If I'm X ethnicty [Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc.], the kids HAVE to be baptized." It's more like magic to them. Unfortunately, there are some priests who don't question the choice of godparents. They're not considered to be folks who will help the parents raise the child in the faith, but more along the lines of a favorite uncle and auntie, or good friends of the parents.

I grew up Catholic, am 40, and I can tell you that many of the Catholics I know are VERY lapsed. They say they believe in God, but just can't be bothered to get to church. Aside from maybe Christmas and Easter. As for the fertility treatments thing - I consistently read that only 5% of Catholics follow RCC teaching on birth control and use NFP instead.

Arduinna, you need to read an additional section in The Orthodox Church: pp. 210-218, on the Trinity. The most relevant portion is on page 212:

The Orthodox position is based on John XV, 26 (John 15:26), where Christ says: 'When the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father - the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father - He will bear witness to Me.' Christ sends the Spirit, but the Spirit proceeds from the Father: so the Bible teaches, and so Orthodoxy believes. What Orthodoxy does not teach, and what the Bible does not actually say, is that the Spirit proceeds from the Son.

An eternal procession from the Father and the Son: such is the western position. An eternal procession of the Spirit from the Father alone, a temporal mission from the Son: such was the position upheld by St. Photius against the west.
--from The Orthodox Church, p. 212.

The verse quoted was from the KJV, for a more modern translation (from the 2nd ed. Catholic RSV from Ignatius Press): "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me." (John 15:26)

This is a prayer to the Holy Spirit that the Orthodox begin every service (and your prayers at home) with (I love it).

O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of Blessings and Giver of Life: Come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.

Besides the theological issues involved, the Western Church took it upon itself to institute changes to the Creed - changes that can only be made by ecumenical council. The Orthodox consider this to be a Very Big Issue.

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#19 of 24 Old 01-31-2009, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I didn't start this because I had a problem with the filioque itself. I believe the filioque. As we both know, the Eastern and Western Church are not sola scriptura. The Western Church had a long tradition of the filioque prior to the official declaration by the Pope. :
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#20 of 24 Old 02-01-2009, 09:06 PM
 
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I just think it is nice that we are talking about this. We are a small group but if more Catholics and Orthodox talked about this maybe things could be different ?
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#21 of 24 Old 02-04-2009, 11:27 AM
 
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Besides the theological issues involved, the Western Church took it upon itself to institute changes to the Creed - changes that can only be made by ecumenical council. The Orthodox consider this to be a Very Big Issue.
That is definitely part of the problem. Changing the filioque not only alters a doctrine about the nature of God, it changes the understanding of the church hierarchy and the authority of bishops. The idea of one bishop being "above" the others came from this change, leading eventually to other RC beliefs like papal infallibility and the power of the Pope to grant indulgences. When the filioque was introduced, a whole different idea of the nature of the Church was also introduced.
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#22 of 24 Old 02-05-2009, 09:52 AM
 
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That is definitely part of the problem. Changing the filioque not only alters a doctrine about the nature of God, it changes the understanding of the church hierarchy and the authority of bishops. The idea of one bishop being "above" the others came from this change, leading eventually to other RC beliefs like papal infallibility and the power of the Pope to grant indulgences. When the filioque was introduced, a whole different idea of the nature of the Church was also introduced.
Just to stir the pot a little:

St Thomas, in defending the filioque, said that although it was not originally in the creed, it was implied, and he also felt that the Orthodox theological position implied that the Spirit proceeded from both, though it didn't say so explicitly. (Obviously they would disagree, at least now. I wonder what would have happened if they discussed it before they changed it?)

As far as the Creed goes, he felt that the reason it wasn't originally put in was because the creed was developed in response to specific questions and heresies, and so only included things that were a specific response to those questions. I don't think anyone disagrees that that is how the Creed was framed. However, since (in his view) the words and theology discussed at the council implied that the Spirit proceeds from both, he concluded that it wasn't really a change to simply make it explicit in the creed.

Theologically. according to Thomas, the persons of the Trinity are only distinguished by their relations to the others, which is why the "and the son" is required.

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#23 of 24 Old 02-05-2009, 03:23 PM
 
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the thing is if people wanted it changed or wanted to discuss change or wanted to clarify there was a proper order for that. It was the manner in which things were done that caused the most strife. changes were made with an attitude of arrogance, entitlment and rebellion which led to a huge ol' fight and all the little things that were different between the east and the west (the geographical cultural divide was huge and allowed a lot of these chanegs to happen without eyebrows being raised) were suddenly big huge deals.

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#24 of 24 Old 02-06-2009, 10:44 AM
 
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Yes, I think it was largely political posturing. The power struggle between the pope and the Emperor had been ugly for some time, on both sides. A lot of using doctrine for political traction. But it wasn't just the West doing that, which one might believe from some descriptions.

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