Lets talk about hell. - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 157 Old 05-18-2009, 06:47 PM
 
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Yeah ... that, again, is about belief in god or knowledge of religion, not about the existence of god. You believe it is human nature to be good. My religion believes it is human nature to be good because god made it so -- fitrah, an innate inborn human disposition towards the will of god. Neither is something that can really be studied or "validated by solid, verifiable, repeatable, testable evidence" because in order to do so one would first necessarily have to prove or disprove the influence of a god. You can test whether or not exposure to a religious education or a culture influenced by religion is necessary for what would more broadly be deemed ethical behavior -- and clearly it's not -- but that's about as far as it goes.
But you were asking what is provable, testable and repeatable. The science of altruism and empathy - which suggests an innate biological "goodness" - can be tested. The idea that God is responsible for that goodness can't be.

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#122 of 157 Old 05-18-2009, 07:21 PM
 
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Evolution was the answer to the comment that God is needed to explain things. Science can explain things - many things - that religion cannot.

Religion no more answers the question of why there is a universe than science does. It is at this stage an unknowable thing for humans.
The comment was that we didn't need god to explain things because we have evolution. That is clearly a strange statement, because evolution only explains a pretty specific set of things - it doesn't even encompass all the things science can tell us. The word 'evolution' is not interchangeable with the word "science," and in this context makes no sense.

I don't think anyone in this discussion has said that science can't (at least theoretically, if not always actually) explain the things that are its object; that is, the observable and measurable world.

On the other hand, it doesn't explain how it draws conclusions about those facts (by reason,) nor does it study things which are non-observable - like reason - which is why science doesn't comment on it.

Your statement that the purpose of the universe is unknowable is a pretty big one - it's not something I would just assume. What makes you think it's true?

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#123 of 157 Old 05-18-2009, 07:26 PM
 
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Genetically.
Google God Gene and enjoy some interesting reading.
yup.

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#124 of 157 Old 05-18-2009, 07:27 PM
 
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But you were asking what is provable, testable and repeatable. The science of altruism and empathy - which suggests an innate biological "goodness" - can be tested. The idea that God is responsible for that goodness can't be.
We can't prove anything through science. That's not how it works, and saying it leads to poor thinking about it, a kind of surity that doesn't exist. Scientific theories are strong, or weak, or even foundational. They are never proven.

Also, the fact that altruism and empathy have a biological basis is not new - the idea has been around at least for 1500 years (that's as far back as I can think off the top of my head, but I suspect that it is older than that, and a lot has been written about it, though not in a scientific context. It is only now that we are seeing some of the physical mechanisms for how it works, but it doesn't really impact on discussions about whether there is such a thing as good or evil, or how we decide what is right or wrong.

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#125 of 157 Old 05-18-2009, 07:39 PM
 
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Sorry if I seemed condescending. I was really just pressed for time, as I mentioned in a previous post. I didn't suggest that you hadn't been to school, although I'm not sure what school has to do with the discussion.
No problem, I'm being a bit sensitive I guess. I will blame crazy pregnancy horomones.

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As you said recently, the posts have been difficult to follow. You are not the only person experiencing that. I am not at all confused regarding the difference between evolution and abiogenesis, as I also pointed out in a previous post.

I really just honestly believe in science and energy, and don't believe in any supernatural force behind that which makes up the universe. Because of that, I think notions of heaven, hell, souls, angels and demons are nothing but superstition. I believe that when I die, my energy will just be dispersed back into the energy which makes up the universe. I may change my opinion on the matter if I ever encounter any real evidence on the subject. The fact that we don't know exactly how the universe began is not enough for me to give up and say "God did it."

As for the topic of philosophy, I'm really not interested in going back and forth on that. I'm actually finding this thread to be a bit tedious with all the confusion about who means what, small snippets of sentences being taken out of context, etc. Not to mention that it's gone completely OT.
Yes, it is certianly going OT. My thought on this would be: science only encompasses what we can observe and measure - the material world, and can't tell us about anything else. And energy is just another form of matter, even though we sometimes think of it as being immaterial, it isn't. But when we do science, we are not just taking measurements and observations, we are using reason to explain the relationship between things, to find cause and effect, to build theories about what those measurements mean. Otherwise it would be a bunch of numbers that tell us nothing. In other words, we are applying reason.

What is the substance of that reason? What is it that links those things? How do we build those theories? What underlies all of these discrete phenomena that we observe? That is the true objective of science. Physicists have some interesting thoughts on this, and it's a particularly interesting discussion in relation to mathematics.

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#126 of 157 Old 05-18-2009, 07:47 PM
 
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Pardon me for responding before I read the whole thread (and I'm certain it's gone OT at this point! )

For me hell is being without God. I don't think of it as a fire and brimstone place since that wasn't what I was taught. I grew up Lutheran with an astonishingly brilliant minister. I didn't believe in the teachings at all, though I was made to attend church. I had plenty of questions which were the foundation of my lack of faith and he allowed them all. This interpretation was the gift he gave me. THAT I could understand. However I will also say that I believe this can occur right now just as much as it can in the afterlife. Off to read the rest of the thread!
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#127 of 157 Old 06-10-2009, 12:13 AM
 
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hey i like this thread! as far as hell goes? i think it was created by man a way to scare people into following the rules that they also created but said were from god.

on the subject of needing god to make good moral/ ethical choices. my friend from college is an atheist who always says she has no morals.. but she is very ethical.

i am agnostic b/c it is the only position i find to be reasonable. i don't know and i'm good with that.

i do not behave a certain way because of god.. especially since i don't know if there is one and i'm not big on the just in case argument b/c if there is a god he would know that and i don't think he or she would be impressed.

why would i not harm someone else? b/c i would not want to be harmed and if it were ok for me to harm someone then it would be ok for someone else to harm me. i would not want to cause some body else pain. i do not like to feel pain emotional or physical i would not want to inflict that on someone else.

empathy isn't a religious thing is it? b/c thats the closest thing that comes to mind to describe what i am trying to say

the other reason is because we need rules in order to live this close together without killing each other. if i were to harm someone what is to stop their family from demanding retribution? if they did that what would my family do? would i want someone to hurt my family member? no. so i wouldn't hurt someone else's either.
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#128 of 157 Old 06-12-2009, 05:55 PM
 
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Yep. I right there with you. When I was told as a small child not to lie or take cookies from the the cookie jar without asking because those acts would cause me to burn in hell...let's just say I was a non-believer by the age of 6. Being raised by fundies was very damaging to me.

Even as a Christian who believes in hell, that makes me sad.
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#129 of 157 Old 06-14-2009, 11:31 PM
 
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but it is such an inhuman thing that I do think we would call such a person insane. A psychopath.
I know many people don't know/care about the difference, but "insanity" (a terribly inaccurate word) and mental illness are not the same as people who meet the criteria for "psychopath." While some psychopaths are psychotic, the majority of them are not. In an excellent article in Scientific American , the author argues that psychosis and psychopathy overlap in very few cases.

I think it confuses people because the words begin the same. By the same token, I think most of us would consider someone with schizophrenia (delusions, hallucinations, paranoia) insane, but few schizophrenics are psychopathic.

What does this have to do with hell? I've seen several mentions in this thread that mental illness likely would make one eligible for hell despite what they do. The examples given are not examples of mental illness, however. There is much argument among medical historians about whether or not Hitler actually suffered any mental illness, though many assume he was bipolar.

Does that change your argument at all? What about people who actually are psychopathic as opposed to psychotic? Ted Bundy and the BTK killer are considered psychopaths while David Berkowitz (son of Sam), Charles Manson, and the VA Tech shooter are actually psychotic, not psychopathic. Is there a difference, if you're arguing that God would take mental illness versus chosen evil into account between the two?

As someone who has bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, I have to correct inaccuracies I see about mental illness. Little of what we see in media and cinematic representations is accurate about people who are mentally ill.

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#130 of 157 Old 06-15-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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What does this have to do with hell? I've seen several mentions in this thread that mental illness likely would make one eligible for hell despite what they do. The examples given are not examples of mental illness, however.
Yikes, you're right, I was conflating psychopath with psychotic. In my arguments back there, however, I meant that people who are insane (and therefore could not choose their actions) should NOT be sent to hell, not that a mental illness makes one eligible for hell. Just as in our justice system a person who is determined to be insane is not considered to be guilty. But you are right that the psychopaths like Ted Bundy were judged guilty and executed, so it is a different thing even in our justice system from psychosis. Now I wonder why that is -- I should think that a psychopath, because they essentially have no conscience, are pretty handicapped in terms of being able to make good choices? I guess I would need to learn more about that.

From the perspective of a creator God, however, who presumably created Bundy with the particular set of genes and brain chemicals (or whatever it is) that made him a psychopath, why would He punish his creature with hell for simply being what He created him to be? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm really sorry I got that wrong, and I hope it didn't upset you . Thanks for the correction.
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#131 of 157 Old 06-15-2009, 06:06 PM
 
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why would He punish his creature with hell for simply being what He created him to be? It doesn't make sense to me.
I dont have an answer to why people have these kinds of illnesses, but Im certain God did NOT create anyone to be that way. Im certain of it, convinced of it in fact. I dont have all the answers but I do NOT believe this is how it 'works'. I used to wonder that myself, but, well lets just say I got over it and I know, bc of how I was able to get over it, that its something you cant explain to someone who believes it anyway, its like there is a 'mental block' an inability to believe it. There just came a point when I realised that all wasnt the way I thought it was, simply bc I thought it was that way. Its about revelation. And as far as insanity goes... well, its pretty much the same thing. There's plenty that I dont understand but I still believe in what my siggie says down there. No amount of 'evidence' that suggests otherwise will convince me at this point. But this wont do for some, I realise that. Some need hard evidence, testable facts. Im afraid it just doesnt work like that either. I personally dont know a whole lot about the subject of Hell. Ive read up on it, Ive heard what other's believe about it. All I know is that its real. Who is going there, Im not privy to that info. and I dont believe anyone else is either.
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#132 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 12:23 AM
 
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Yikes, you're right, I was conflating psychopath with psychotic. In my arguments back there, however, I meant that people who are insane (and therefore could not choose their actions) should NOT be sent to hell, not that a mental illness makes one eligible for hell. Just as in our justice system a person who is determined to be insane is not considered to be guilty. But you are right that the psychopaths like Ted Bundy were judged guilty and executed, so it is a different thing even in our justice system from psychosis. Now I wonder why that is -- I should think that a psychopath, because they essentially have no conscience, are pretty handicapped in terms of being able to make good choices? I guess I would need to learn more about that.
I honestly don't know how I feel about it. Yes, people who are truly insane from mental illness are not culpable for what they do when not on their meds (and sometimes with them). I think in a human sense, those people belong in long-term psych institutions and not jail. Psychopaths, in my mind, belong in jail. I'm not sure what I think God would do because I've never seen anything to address it in any religious text.

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From the perspective of a creator God, however, who presumably created Bundy with the particular set of genes and brain chemicals (or whatever it is) that made him a psychopath, why would He punish his creature with hell for simply being what He created him to be? It doesn't make sense to me.
This is one of my problems with the concept of hell as well. I was reading last night, after reading here, that scientists looked at John Wayne Gacy's brain after his death and discovered nothing discernably different about it from a "normal," non-serial killer brain. I'm not sure what that means, though. If his brain isn't different, what caused him to kill so many people and have absolutely no feeling about it? And, yes, why would God create someone without the capacity for feeling and then doom that person to Hell because of it?

I'm really sorry I got that wrong, and I hope it didn't upset you . Thanks for the correction.[/QUOTE]

Oh, no, it's fine. I just try to point out the difference. We're not all going to kill everyone we see.

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#133 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 12:28 AM
 
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And as far as insanity goes... well, its pretty much the same thing.
Do you believe mental illness is a fallacy?

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#134 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 12:30 AM
 
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real quick - i am fairly certain that any behavior that interferes with your ability to lead a product life is a behavioral disorder. so even if their brain is no different and they do not have an absolute diagnosis they still have a behavioral (or mental i forget which) disorder if their behaviors are interfering with their ability to lead productive lives. i think this applies to serial killers.

i know that serial killers are almost always victims of extreme physical abuse.. and often other abuse. so PTSD is a definite possibility, as is DID .. which adds an interesting concept, and a total lack of examples for how to function in society. so how do all of these things factor in to hell? how can you can condemn someone for eternity under these circumstances? i imagine they have spend quite enough time in hell already.
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#135 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 12:31 AM
 
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Do you believe mental illness is a fallacy?
i hope not : i really don't understand that perspective.
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#136 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 01:04 AM
 
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Is there any religion that proposes that people utterly incapable of different choices are resposible for those choices?
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#137 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 01:06 AM
 
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hm.. i don't know... do most religions agree that there are people who are incapable of different choices? b/c if so i would hope that those religions would make allowances for people who could not make a choice.
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#138 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 02:27 AM
 
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hm.. i don't know... do most religions agree that there are people who are incapable of different choices? b/c if so i would hope that those religions would make allowances for people who could not make a choice.
: I've always just assumed, I suppose. A belief system that doesn't acknowledge the possibility of someone really not being in control of their own mind would admittedly be strange to me.
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#139 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 03:28 AM
 
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Is there any religion that proposes that people utterly incapable of different choices are resposible for those choices?
Calvinist Christianity, I believe.
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#140 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 04:20 AM
 
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Do you believe mental illness is a fallacy?
Absolutely not, Ive suffered from depression myself and that is considered a mental illness. I was simply trying to say that while I dont understand ALL the ins and outs about mental illness, its not something God created an individual with. I was saying that I am convinced that God didnt make then to be that way....

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why would He punish his creature with hell for simply being what He created him to be? It doesn't make sense to me.
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i hope not : i really don't understand that perspective.
Golly. I sure didnt mean to upset you so much. Honestly. I will say that I believe there can be a spiritual element to some forms of mental illness, but I do NOT believe ALL forms of mental illness are a result of demon possession or that God created people specifically to manifest certain forms of mental illness! I hope Ive cleared that up. My depression, yeah, it did have some spiritual aspects of it. I was on antidepressants with it tho, so I obviously believe there is a chemical imbalance, as well.

I think these things are more complicated then meets the eye, even to dr's and scientists. I really really believe these things are rather more complicated, spiritually then anyone can really get to the bottom of.


Just having gone back over some of the other posts I wanted to add that this has caused me to really want to understand Hell a bit better. Im obviously coming from a Christian perspective so Ill be using the bible. Hell is something you are taught to believe from the word 'go' when you become a christian. You are actually taught to accept it and often times I think we do just bc well, its what you are supposed to believe. But Oh, my walk with Christ has always looked different from the way 'mainstream' Christianity says your walk should look like... as in, I stopped believing everything I was taught about God, Hell, Heaven, Salvation, to believe simply bc ...well its what you are supposed to believe.

Someone asked in a pp if there was a religion that takes into account the fact that some people are incapable of making ..decisions... bc of mental illness.. Is that the question in a nutshell? (I cant find the post now). But that struck me bc I started my bible study on Hell with this as one of the questions in mind... Ill let ya know what I come up with. I totally know that the things I come up wtih sometimes make me ....different... among my christian 'contemporaries'. They often have really big mouths and are pretty ferocious about what they believe you are supposed to believe about God. im not afraid to take my time to 'get to know' God, lol. I have an eternity to do so, why the rush, why the fearmongering. Anyway, ot and I need to make lunches... toodles!
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#141 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 04:23 AM
 
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i think there are probably things (definitely things) we don't understand. i am not sure about demon possession.. i suppose it is possible. i have a good priest friend who firmly believes it is possible.. and he is pretty level headed.
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#142 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 04:33 AM
 
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I believe in Hell as it is portrayed in the Bible.
ditto

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#143 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 11:24 AM
 
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i hope not : i really don't understand that perspective.
I wasn't saying genifer did. That's kind of what I got from reading her last post, so I wanted clarification. Just wanted to say that I wasn't "accusing" her of believing that. I certainly don't believe it, but I have had a number of evangelical Christians of various denominations tell me that mental illness is really a spiritual illness and that it doesn't really exist.

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#144 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 11:39 AM
 
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Absolutely not, Ive suffered from depression myself and that is considered a mental illness. I was simply trying to say that while I dont understand ALL the ins and outs about mental illness, its not something God created an individual with. I was saying that I am convinced that God didnt make then to be that way....
Why are you convinced that God didn't make them that way? I'm talking here about serious mental illness. I don't want to discount unipolar depression. Certainly that's debilitating when people are going through it, but I can understand your argument more when it comes to those kinds of problems.

I'm talking about severe cases of bipolar disorder, schizo-affective disorder, and schizophrenia in particular. Why would someone begin to hallucinate and have paranoid delusions if not for a mental illness?

(And I suppose to a bigger degree, if you believe that physical illness exists, why not mental illness? I'm assuming you believe that a child born with CF, for instance, is that way because God made him/her that way. If that's not your religious philosophy, then obviously this question doesn't apply.)

I've heard this argument before many times but always just placed in cutesy terms like "mental illness is a spiritual illness" and left at that. I'm curious as to what the expanded argument is. I've been diagnosed bipolar since I was 13 and can trace back elements of the illness to around age 8. Now, I was raised in an abusive environment, and I do believe some of my problems are related to the abuse. My son, however, is 4 and has a really wonderful, stable home. He also displays almost all of the markers of juvenile BP, which makes sense (from the science) given my history. If God didn't make him that way, then what? I can't believe in cases like his (where there's no abuse and a loving, stable - and might I add religious - family) that the disorder is a manifestation of spiritual or other problems. I can't believe, in essence, that it's not real.

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Im obviously coming from a Christian perspective so Ill be using the bible. Hell is something you are taught to believe from the word 'go' when you become a christian. You are actually taught to accept it and often times I think we do just bc well, its what you are supposed to believe.
And it's freakin' scary. I remember as a child being reduced to tears because I would do something (perfectly age-appropriate) and believe I was going to burn in hell or believe that people I knew would burn in hell (and was told this by Sunday school teachers and other adults) because they weren't Christians. That's a lot to put on children at 5 years old. I've known about the evangelical conception of hell since I can remember. Even now, when I've accepted that the Bible doesn't support all of the things I was taught, I still have this unfortunate lingering fear that I'm doomed for an eternity in lakes of fire because it's just so ingrained in me.


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Someone asked in a pp if there was a religion that takes into account the fact that some people are incapable of making ..decisions... bc of mental illness.. Is that the question in a nutshell? (I cant find the post now). But that struck me bc I started my bible study on Hell with this as one of the questions in mind... Ill let ya know what I come up with.
It wasn't my question, but I'll be curious to learn what you discover.

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#145 of 157 Old 06-16-2009, 03:37 PM
 
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I don't see why people wouldn't suffer mental illness as much as from cancer or diabetes or having no legs. All of them have a physical origin, and I don't really see the difference. All are, I suppose, for the greater glory of God, though in my experience that is not how people usually feel when experiencing them.

Now, I think there is spiritual illness, and physical and spiritual illness can be closely related. And in some cases spiritual illness may look a lot like mental illness, I suspect. I've also found that those people who work with mental illness tend to neglect the spiritual effects it can have on the person who is suffering, more so than with more obvious or outward forms of physical illness.

And, if a person was possessed by a demon, they might well appear to have a mental illness, though I would say that in many cases they also seem to suffer other physical effects too. But I haven't seen this to be very common - I've never met anyone I had reason to think of as possibly possessed.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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#146 of 157 Old 06-17-2009, 09:37 AM
 
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I'm talking about severe cases of bipolar disorder, schizo-affective disorder, and schizophrenia in particular. Why would someone begin to hallucinate and have paranoid delusions if not for a mental illness?


BrandiRhoades,

I typed out a response that I know wouldnt be satisfactoy. I do want to clarify that I do NOT believe these mental illnesses arent real and I didnt think I suggested that, so maybe Im misunderstanding your question. See, I havent suffered from a severe mental disorder, nor has anyone else close to me, so I am actually not qualified to answer that. I was trying to say that it wasnt God's intention, upon creating everything, that we should suffer these things. I know I dont have a satisfactory answer so Im not going to try. I will get back to you when I discover anything.


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Someone asked in a pp if there was a religion that takes into account the fact that some people are incapable of making ..decisions... bc of mental illness.. Is that the question in a nutshell? (I cant find the post now). But that struck me bc I started my bible study on Hell with this as one of the questions in mind... Ill let ya know what I come up with.

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It wasn't my question, but I'll be curious to learn what you discover.
When I read about Jesus Christ, the Gospels, I dont count anything apart from what's in the bible as valid, thats my decided stance on that issue, no extrabiblical stuff qualifies for me, so when I talk about Jesus Christ, Im talking about the Christ I know from the bible... When I read about Him, He is so different from how His 'disciples' depict Him. He is compassionate, and whenever I read what he teaches, as opposed to the way his 'followers' teach about Him, I cant help but see such a contrast. Jesus had mercy on those who even hated Him, He loved those people who reviled him, he healed, and had compassion on those who did suffer all sorts of illnesses, mental, physical, spiritual etc. Even those who werent thankful. The only people I see Jesus having a REAL issue with were those who thought they were spiritually superior to others, hypocrites. So my take on that is that Jesus Christ, therefor christianity as a religion really does take these things into account. I think Christians have gotten it wrong along the way. Misrepresent Him. I think the heart of Christianity, first of all is obviously Christ, but our responsibility is to be humble, accepting that without God, we are quite hopeless. And I believe Jesus is the one who made the way very easy to see God, have a relationship with Him. I dont really care if it sounds like Im evangelising, If it sounds like that I just cant help it, this is what I believe. I wonder if perhaps we are victims just as much as we are sinners. Victims in that we are held captive to something, and most of the time we dont even know it and I believe Jesus did what he did to set us free, even if it doesnt seem like it, there is a spiritual freedom. See, Im afraid Im rambling now, and Ive got a lot of housework to do, not that I want to do it, but Ive spent a little bit too much time on the computer at this stage, and Ive still not given a satisfactory answer! I guess these things are just hard to answer. I apologise for the misunderstanding about mental illness not being real, I was genuinely NOT trying to say that.
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#147 of 157 Old 06-17-2009, 02:17 PM
 
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Well, certianly most Christian groups would say that there are a number of circumstances under which a person might not be responsible for his or her own actions. It might not always be totally clear to others, or even to the person involved, but it would be to God.

A good example of how the understanding of mental illness has changed can be seen in how the church treats suicides. My uncle,, a Roman Catholic, killed himself a number of years ago, and was given an RC funeral and buried in an RC cemetery. At one time, that wouldn't have happened, but the general view now is that people who commit suicide are ill, and not responsible for their actions. Again, it is impossible for us to know exactly how much real choice the person had, but the Church gives the benefit of the doubt. This is also the case for other problems/actions related to mental illness.

C.S. Lewis, an Anglican - but not a modern one - suggests that very likely, there are any number of things in a persons life that affect their ability to make good choices. Upbringing, temperament, circumstances around them. When we go to be judged, all that will be stripped away, and we will see our choices in perfect clarity. A relief for some, perhaps, and rather terrible for others.

Mind you, he also suggests that we are always inclined to make up excuses and special circumstances for our own bad choices, and overlook those things with regard to the poor choices of others. The best answer, he says, is not to bother with excuses for ourselves, as God will make all the real ones, and we need only bother with apologies. And with others, to refrain from judging unless it is really our duty to do so.

I would say from my own experience, having a lot of mental illness in my family, it is not any clearer with the mentally ill, often, than with other people. I think the same principles apply.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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#148 of 157 Old 06-17-2009, 03:56 PM
 
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BrandiRhoades,

I typed out a response that I know wouldnt be satisfactoy. I do want to clarify that I do NOT believe these mental illnesses arent real and I didnt think I suggested that, so maybe Im misunderstanding your question. See, I havent suffered from a severe mental disorder, nor has anyone else close to me, so I am actually not qualified to answer that. I was trying to say that it wasnt God's intention, upon creating everything, that we should suffer these things. I know I dont have a satisfactory answer so Im not going to try. I will get back to you when I discover anything.
I didn't think you were saying they aren't real, as if the people who have them don't really suffer from them. I'm just curious more about the comment that God wouldn't have intended anyone to suffer from severe mental illness. In saying that, do you believe they're entirely human-induced or that there are other factors in play?

I *have* been told a number of times that mental illness isn't real. Sometimes that's from people who've suffered a bout of depression and overcome it and have come away with the idea that prayer and correcting sin in our lives will solve all mental illness. At least that's how that position has been relayed. I don't believe that explanation deals with severe mental illnesses, but no, that's not what I meant to suggest that I thought you were saying.

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#149 of 157 Old 06-17-2009, 04:16 PM
 
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it seems strange to me that god would intentionally create someone with any debilitating disease but especially severe mental illness. mental illness can really cut someone off from the rest of the world. i don't understand why god would intentionally create someone with a mental illness like schizophrenia, it generally manifests in young adulthood often unexpectedly, the medications can be worse then the symptoms themselves, and its just a horrifying and confusing experience for everyone involved. it is possible to live with, keep under control etc. but it is definitely not an easy life. not to mention the stigma attached to it which is not really deserved and makes the whole thing worse.

I can understand something like DID which is a coping mechanism that can be worked through, learned to live with, etc.

i don't know if i am making sense.. so sorry if this is disjointed. i don't understand why god would great a person with a disorder that makes their life so terribly difficult. i am sure there are people with these disorders who live wonderfully fulfilling lives but there are also people who don't or can't and it's sad that they have to suffer.
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#150 of 157 Old 06-17-2009, 08:53 PM
 
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it seems strange to me that god would intentionally create someone with any debilitating disease but especially severe mental illness. mental illness can really cut someone off from the rest of the world. i don't understand why god would intentionally create someone with a mental illness like schizophrenia, it generally manifests in young adulthood often unexpectedly, the medications can be worse then the symptoms themselves, and its just a horrifying and confusing experience for everyone involved. it is possible to live with, keep under control etc. but it is definitely not an easy life. not to mention the stigma attached to it which is not really deserved and makes the whole thing worse.

I can understand something like DID which is a coping mechanism that can be worked through, learned to live with, etc.

i don't know if i am making sense.. so sorry if this is disjointed. i don't understand why god would great a person with a disorder that makes their life so terribly difficult. i am sure there are people with these disorders who live wonderfully fulfilling lives but there are also people who don't or can't and it's sad that they have to suffer.
This is really the same question as why does God allow natural disasters, or people to be born with all kinds of disabilities, I think. Or even born with diseases like childhood cancer. All these things can seem cruel and pointless, and so far as I know, there is no one who really understands why. Even atheists, who say there is no reason, seem to find these things difficult to deal with on a personal level.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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