For those who cover with wigs.... - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 46 Old 02-10-2009, 05:07 PM
 
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Yeah, that's a great wig, isn't it?

It's a cute outfit. I don't have to look like a frump-meister, you know? But it holds to (the Modern Orthodox) interpretation of tznius, our modesty laws.

That being said, many of the Orthodox moms on the board wouldn't be caught dead in it. In Judaism, interpretation is HUGE. Some communities would be fine with that outfit, others wouldn't - depending on the opinion of the rav they follow and the consensus of the community.

But in Judaism, modesty is a LAW. There are guidelines and strictures of how to dress, behave, etc. If what you want to wear falls into it, fine. Like that outfit. I don't have to look like this (and yup, that's Mrs. Doubtfire ) in order to follow the law. I'm 24, for goodness' sake - a young, married professional in a professional world.

Check out some of the clothes at ZORI. Love that place.

I guess, the point is that the clothes follow the laws. Individual styles are up to you - as long as they follow the laws, too. There's nothing wrong with looking attractive - just something wrong with putting the parts of your body that are private on display.

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#32 of 46 Old 02-10-2009, 06:08 PM
 
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The reason why a wig is permissible, but a reproduction of say, a boob, is not, is because a breast is intrinsicly ervah (naked), but hair is not. In fact, only MY hair is ervah to men not my DH. So because it's only about MY hair that has that 'allure' I am permitted to cover it up with something that looks like real hair.

As I said earlier, the only person who needs to know I am covering is ME. Even the most comfy wig or hat is still something that I will feel on my head when I am wearing, and it's hard to 'forget' that I'm married, yk?

As for judgement of Attractive vs attracting, certainly it's a subjective classification. But I am careful. For example, I sometimes dress glamourously, but I am not wearing skin-tight clothes (which are immodest, despite the fact that they cover e/t). Rather, I'll wear a beautiful ball-gown skirt, and a pretty top and great sheytel & some nice make-up & jewelry. But no cleavage, no skintight, no 'f-me' make-up, KWIM???
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#33 of 46 Old 02-10-2009, 10:42 PM
 
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I just need to say that...I think this is all fascinating! I LOVE learning more about this stuff.
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#34 of 46 Old 02-10-2009, 11:26 PM
 
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Covering a woman's hair has many different reasons according to Judaism. The concept of why hair becomes needing to be covered only after marriage has everything from the practical and easy to understand reasoning to the kabbalistic and only spiritual realm reasoning. Depending on how you view it will also set the tone for how you cover. Ok, I know that probably doesn't make much sense without background but perhaps some of it can be explained better by another poster.
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#35 of 46 Old 02-10-2009, 11:52 PM
 
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Chavi - I appreciate your insight. Our Conservative female Rav wears a ballcap and/or kippah to cover. Granted, I've never actually asked her about this stuff...

This is somewhat embarrassing to admit but my first introduction to sheitels (wigs) was through reading Naomi Regan novels. For the uninitiated, she writes about life in Ultra-Orthodox Jewish settings. It just blew my mind when I first read her stuff. I grew up Reform and currently consider myself somewhere between Conservative and Jewish.

Anyway, coming from a Reform background with no women in my family covering, I thought wigs made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I would like to add that I remember having a conversation with the Rabbi who performed the wedding ceremony between DH and I, and I said "It's not like I wear a wig" and our Rabbi said "Not yet."

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#36 of 46 Old 02-11-2009, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
The reason why a wig is permissible, but a reproduction of say, a boob, is not, is because a breast is intrinsicly ervah (naked), but hair is not. In fact, only MY hair is ervah to men not my DH. So because it's only about MY hair that has that 'allure' I am permitted to cover it up with something that looks like real hair.
That helps. I think for the uninitiated we hear covering hair is required and we assume ALL hair. It makes sense that it's only YOUR hair as it pertains to YOU.



Not yet. I like that.

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#37 of 46 Old 02-11-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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currently consider myself somewhere between Conservative and Jewish.
I'm sure this was a typo
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#38 of 46 Old 02-11-2009, 09:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SaraFR View Post
Covering a woman's hair has many different reasons according to Judaism. The concept of why hair becomes needing to be covered only after marriage has everything from the practical and easy to understand reasoning to the kabbalistic and only spiritual realm reasoning. Depending on how you view it will also set the tone for how you cover. Ok, I know that probably doesn't make much sense without background but perhaps some of it can be explained better by another poster.
no I think that makes perfect sense actually! This is exactly this way in Christianity. there is much implication of the "practical" and obvious reasons to cover just as there is for the spiritual ones. Some will side with one side over the other... but I think the Bible addresses both.

some will say it's only for modesty. some will say it's a spiritual sign. and I say it's both. it's for reasons I understand and for reasons I do not understand.

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#39 of 46 Old 02-12-2009, 04:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
I'm sure this was a typo
No, not a typo. I don't really feel like I fit with any particular movement. I was raised reform but I am pretty observant compared to my family, in laws, and community. We are members of a conservative shul - but it's the ONLY gig in town so we don't really have a choice. I've been telling people I'm "Just Jewish" for years, when they ask "what flavor" I just shrug and smile. It's a journey. I'm certainly not Orthodox, nor Reform....

why did you think it was a typo, Chavi?

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#40 of 46 Old 02-12-2009, 03:22 PM
 
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No, not a typo...

why did you think it was a typo, Chavi?
Because you were mentioning reform & conservative denominations, and then described yourself as "Between Conservative & Jewish" which makes no sense, since you can't be 'between' those 2 things - either you consider yourself Jewish or not, and if you don't identify with any denomination, that's fine too, just that separating "Jewish" and "Conservative" implies that "conservative" is NOT "Jewish" (Which I'm sure you didn't mean to say)
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#41 of 46 Old 02-12-2009, 04:49 PM
 
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no, I was not trying to imply that conservative is not Jewish. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

We're all one big family

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#42 of 46 Old 02-13-2009, 05:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
2. Having or proceeding from a disinclination to call attention to oneself
Can I ask how much "modesty" in English and the words being translated from Hebrew into "modesty" as a concept mesh in this respect?

I ask because where our religions both have some requirement of modesty, in Arabic what we're looking at is haya -- a kind of commendable shyness, a self-protectiveness, humility, the ability to feel embarrassment when stepping outside of what are considered natural proprieties, etc, etc, etc. Things that really have nothing to do with trying to blend in and have everything to do with personal feelings and personal conduct pretty much regardless of surrounding behaviors.

At any rate, the difference set me to wondering about the relevant etymology.
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#43 of 46 Old 02-13-2009, 11:07 AM
 
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Can I ask how much "modesty" in English and the words being translated from Hebrew into "modesty" as a concept mesh in this respect?

I ask because where our religions both have some requirement of modesty, in Arabic what we're looking at is haya -- a kind of commendable shyness, a self-protectiveness, humility, the ability to feel embarrassment when stepping outside of what are considered natural proprieties, etc, etc, etc. Things that really have nothing to do with trying to blend in and have everything to do with personal feelings and personal conduct pretty much regardless of surrounding behaviors.

At any rate, the difference set me to wondering about the relevant etymology.
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#44 of 46 Old 02-13-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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Excellent question!

*bounces off to do research*

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#45 of 46 Old 02-13-2009, 01:39 PM
 
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The biblical source for the whole concept of "tzniut" or modesty is actually nothing to do with how one dresses.

The verse in Micah 6:8 says:"Mah Hashem Doresh Mimcha...Hatzne'a Leket Im Hashem Elokecha"

"What does G-d ask/require of you?...and to walk humbly/modestly with G-d"

Humility or modesty.

Humility is a demeaner, a way of life, and not just a mode of dress.

Just some food for thought...
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#46 of 46 Old 02-16-2009, 12:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
The biblical source for the whole concept of "tzniut" or modesty is actually nothing to do with how one dresses.

The verse in Micah 6:8 says:"Mah Hashem Doresh Mimcha...Hatzne'a Leket Im Hashem Elokecha"

"What does G-d ask/require of you?...and to walk humbly/modestly with G-d"

Humility or modesty.

Humility is a demeaner, a way of life, and not just a mode of dress.

Just some food for thought...
Likewise haya / hijab (despite the word having later come to include/mean dress) / etc. But what I'm wondering is what all the concept of the original word(s) encompasses and does not encompass. In English, as sme posted, being "modest" can very specifically include a dislike of standing out in any respect -- being shy from doing anything that causes others to really take notice. In Arabic, at least in religious contexts, the concept pretty definitively includes a willingness to behaviorally stand out if the surrounding standards of conduct, privacy, speech, dress, or whatever, do not meet the standards otherwise elucidated in the religious texts. Being shy about one's own conduct, not shy about other people's perception of one's own (good) conduct. Hebrew and Arabic being both Semitic languages, I was just wondering if the words used in each are maybe more related to one another than either to the English (or not).

(Not trying to say anything about the right of covering with wigs itself though. If Jewish scholars have interpreted things as such, awesome. Just going off on a bit of an only nominally related tangent.)
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