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#1 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How in the world do you debate a person who believes that God wants them to spank their child. That it is stated in the bible that one should use the "rod" to discipline?

Some mamas where talking about spanking a 9 month old baby and it has gotten me really upset, and i just never realized in today's age that people where still more than ok with spanking.

So how would you go about making them rethink their views?

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#2 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 02:49 PM
 
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http://www.parenting.com/article/Tod...----Yay-or-Nay

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...cmguidance.php

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...s/rodstudy.php

You could ask them to actually read their Bibles

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#3 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It seems they are all saying they have read it....

Thanks so much for those links!

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#4 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 03:07 PM
 
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I would read the articles at www.gentlechristianmothers.com and then talk to them.

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#5 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you, i will, And i will be sure to pass on those links!

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#6 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 08:49 PM
 
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You could introduce them to Christian Universalism. Once they stop seeing God as a mean and punitve Parent who is going to cast all non-believers into hell to burn FOREVER -- then maybe they'll get freed-up to start loving, accepting, and ENJOYING their kids right where they're at, rather than feeling a need to control them and keep them on the straight-and-narrow.

http://www.tentmaker.org/

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#7 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 09:02 PM
 
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Look up user "dulce de leche" here on mothering. She has a very nice letter with biblical references that she wrote to her pastor.

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#8 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 09:46 PM
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I second the links already given and also: http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

A little down on the page it talks about the word for "child" in hebrew;
Quote:
In three of the rod verses in Proverbs, the English word we see is “child”, but the original Hebrew word is na’ar. It means the “one shook lose” and definitely refers to the young adult or teenage years. None of the words translated as “child/children” in the book of Proverbs actually refer to those under the age of ten or twelve. This is significant! The rod verses are NOT directed toward little children.
I also think the bible is rife with verses that go against punitive punishment and if debating with other Christians I use these:

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance. . . " (Gal. 5:22, 23b),

"Love is patient, love is kind" ( I Cor. 13 )

". . . we proved to be gentle among you as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children" (I Thess. 2:7)

"do to others what you would have them do to you" (Mat. 7:12), etc.

My favorite is Matthew 25: 41-46;

"'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'" (Mat 25: 41-46)
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#9 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 09:52 PM
 
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Wow, such great info ladies, thank you all for sharing. What a good thread!
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#10 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 10:18 PM
 
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So, if these people are using the scripture that says "rod and staff that guide me" or basically the "spare the rod, spoil the child" thought - I always say that a rod is used by shepherds to GUIDE the sheep in the way they should go, it is not used to hit the sheep. There is a big difference (obviously) but for some people they don't realized that the purpose is for steering in the correct direction not as a means of punishment.

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#11 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 10:26 PM
 
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I"m reading a (so far) fabulous book called "How would Jesus Raise a Child" and in it she basically says that Christians often look only to the corporal punishment advice of the bible because they think that Jesus was silent on issues of parenting. She refutes this by saying that his entire ministry was a model in gentle parenting: the long view versus the short view, the process rather than the result, guidance rather than punishment. I'm only in the middle, but it has me wondering if my corporal-punishing Christians sisters would genuinely spank their child if Jesus were standing there.
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#12 of 81 Old 05-24-2009, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I"m reading a (so far) fabulous book called "How would Jesus Raise a Child" and in it she basically says that Christians often look only to the corporal punishment advice of the bible because they think that Jesus was silent on issues of parenting. She refutes this by saying that his entire ministry was a model in gentle parenting: the long view versus the short view, the process rather than the result, guidance rather than punishment. I'm only in the middle, but it has me wondering if my corporal-punishing Christians sisters would genuinely spank their child if Jesus were standing there.
Thats funny you should say that. I asked the mama that same question. Well i asked her if she really thought Jesus would spank his child. She said YES!

And she then went on to talk about how God "spanks" us to teach us a lesson!

BTW thank you all sooooooooooooooo very much for all of the links! I wish you could be there to say these things, because i am sure i wont get it across as well as you!

Melanie- Mama to my super hero daughter superhero.gif bravely battling brain cancer. ribbongrey.gif ribbongold.gif  www.fightformaddie.com  and expecting 1sttri.gif 1/13!!!!

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#13 of 81 Old 05-25-2009, 02:43 AM
 
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If this woman is a regular fixture in your life, your advice would not be misplaced. If I heard a Christian mother talk about spanking a 9 month old infant, I would quote this scripture:
'I tell you the truth, whatever you did to the least of these brothers of mine, you did to me.'
Matthew 25:40

Though as with just about any subject, one could be engaging in a scripture battle, which would be futile. There's always another scripture somewhere, you know?

This is coming from an Atheist (who was raised in church), but I think Jesus Christ's example was one of compassion and patience, not the proverbial whip-cracking. Perhaps this woman sees Christ in a different light, one of an angry God of hellfire and brimstone.
As a mother, it hurts to hear someone bragging about hurting a baby or a child. I would have recoiled and said, "I think it's despicable that you would hurt an infant. She has absolutely no physical or mental ability to begin to comprehend the reason for your violence- all she can do is feel the pain inflicted by the one person on earth who is meant to protect her. You are nothing more than a predator to prey on the weak. If you think your God hurts children, he is no god of mine. You two will be good company for each other."
But that's mama-lion talking.
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#14 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 04:05 AM
 
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Against Child Buttock-Beating:

Nobel Peace Prize Recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu

Churches Network for Non-Violence

Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps


"The Oracular decisions of God have positively declared that the Slave-Trade is intrinsically good and licit, ....is perfectly consonant to the Mosaic Dispensation, and the Christian Law"
-Charles Jared Ingersolls African Slavery in America

There are several more that were used to advocate burning witches, oppressing women, holding slaves, Inquisitions, etc.

It's called selective literalism.


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad; and that is my religion"
-Abraham Lincoln
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#15 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 09:51 AM
 
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Thats funny you should say that. I asked the mama that same question. Well i asked her if she really thought Jesus would spank his child. She said YES!

And she then went on to talk about how God "spanks" us to teach us a lesson!

BTW thank you all sooooooooooooooo very much for all of the links! I wish you could be there to say these things, because i am sure i wont get it across as well as you!
Bolding mine. Wow, such an ignorant statement. She can't be that "good of a Christian", since she clearly hasn't even read the bible. If she had, she'd know that God does not "spank us to teach us a lesson". That's just sad. Her poor baby...
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#16 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 11:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
You could introduce them to Christian Universalism. Once they stop seeing God as a mean and punitve Parent who is going to cast all non-believers into hell to burn FOREVER -- then maybe they'll get freed-up to start loving, accepting, and ENJOYING their kids right where they're at, rather than feeling a need to control them and keep them on the straight-and-narrow.

http://www.tentmaker.org/


I'd just point out that the instructions to beat the devil out of them and not spare the rod are OLD testament and that since we are under Christ and grace we are not bound by those laws anymore. The same as we are no longer to seek revenge ("an eye for an eye") but we are to "turn the other cheek."

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#17 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 11:38 AM
 
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Bolding mine. Wow, such an ignorant statement. She can't be that "good of a Christian", since she clearly hasn't even read the bible. If she had, she'd know that God does not "spank us to teach us a lesson". That's just sad. Her poor baby...
I am not where you all are as far as GD, but I am trying to be. I just had to mention, the bible DOES say God chastens his children who he loves.

Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.




CHASTEN
Pronunciation (US):

Dictionary entry overview: What does chasten mean?

• CHASTEN (verb)
The verb CHASTEN has 3 senses:

1. censure severely
2. restrain or temper
3. correct by punishment or discipline

I think it is wrong to assume people who dont come to the same conclusion as you dont read their bible. I think perhaps they just dont come to the same conclusion. I know bible isnt well recieved around here, but I am honestly curious as to what biblical backing there is to say that God isnt vengeful, almighty, and is going to allow people to go to hell? That is all in the bible.

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#18 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 11:42 AM
 
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My whole family thinks I'm wrong not to spank- "it's Biblical"...

I say that I believe under the new covenant I don't have to... Jesus bore the "punishment" for our sins, and now there are consequences for our actions but not "punishment".

I also point out Old Testament treatment of "rebellious sons" involved stoning them. Would you still do that? And do you think when God instructed parents to take their rebellious children to the city gates and stone them, he meant a 9 month baby boy, or did he mean "sons" in the respect of older teenage boys who were committing crimes against humanity?

I also point out that Solomon, the guy who advocates spanking in Proverbs, wasn't the best model of family life- hellloooo! He had 1000 concubines (contrary to God's will), probably over 1000 children- if I had that many I'd probably lose my mind and whack them with a rod too.

One verse I do get stuck on is Hebrews 12:6- New Testament- where it says:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

Any explanations?

Nevertheless, if you really need a fall back there are several verses that speak about how "the rod of anger fails" and "the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God"- so there's your loophole! I just say I feel anger when my kids are naughty, so I can't possibly spank and expect it to do good.
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#19 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 11:45 AM
 
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I say that I believe under the new covenant I don't have to... Jesus bore the "punishment" for our sins, and now there are consequences for our actions but not "punishment".
This is strange to me. The consequences for our actions (hell) is the punishment. Jesus didnt bear the punishment for people who dont accept him. He did, but when they dont accept, they then bear the punishment.

I addressed the chasten verse in Hebrews in my post above.

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#20 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 12:29 PM
 
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This is strange to me. The consequences for our actions (hell) is the punishment. Jesus didnt bear the punishment for people who dont accept him. He did, but when they dont accept, they then bear the punishment.
Disagree
This is turning into a religious debate so that's it for me.

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#21 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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I don't think asking them to read their Bibles would help your argument at all. The Bible is very pro-violence. It says nothing about NOT spanking...if anything you should probably brush up on your own Bible literacy and you'd probably realize that the idea of "Gentlechristianmothers" is a made up one. As well as the idea of the perfect "christian family". The Bible isn't very pro-family in general.
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Disagree
This is turning into a religious debate so that's it for me.
I agree, I dont want to argue the bible here See, we can civilily disagree

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#23 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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If this woman is a regular fixture in your life, your advice would not be misplaced. If I heard a Christian mother talk about spanking a 9 month old infant, I would quote this scripture:
'I tell you the truth, whatever you did to the least of these brothers of mine, you did to me.'
Matthew 25:40

Though as with just about any subject, one could be engaging in a scripture battle, which would be futile. There's always another scripture somewhere, you know?

This is coming from an Atheist (who was raised in church), but I think Jesus Christ's example was one of compassion and patience, not the proverbial whip-cracking. Perhaps this woman sees Christ in a different light, one of an angry God of hellfire and brimstone.
As a mother, it hurts to hear someone bragging about hurting a baby or a child. I would have recoiled and said, "I think it's despicable that you would hurt an infant. She has absolutely no physical or mental ability to begin to comprehend the reason for your violence- all she can do is feel the pain inflicted by the one person on earth who is meant to protect her. You are nothing more than a predator to prey on the weak. If you think your God hurts children, he is no god of mine. You two will be good company for each other."
But that's mama-lion talking.
As another atheist I'd have to disagree. If you are a christian you believe Jesus IS God...so although Jesus' example may have been more compassionate...God was vicious in the old testament...and since the Bible claims God doesn't change, doesn't make mistakes, etc...Jesus is just as bad as God.

God DOES hurt children, kills them for stupid reasons, in fact...Read KINGS 2. I'm not sure why people choose to overlook stories like this, or claim they are taken out of context. It's always the "bad" stuff that is taken out of context. Is there any GOOD reason to kill 42 children (or young people)? I mean, really now?
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#24 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 01:14 PM
 
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As another atheist I'd have to disagree. If you are a christian you believe Jesus IS God...so although Jesus' example may have been more compassionate...God was vicious in the old testament...and since the Bible claims God doesn't change, doesn't make mistakes, etc...Jesus is just as bad as God.

God DOES hurt children, kills them for stupid reasons, in fact...Read KINGS 2. I'm not sure why people choose to overlook stories like this, or claim they are taken out of context. It's always the "bad" stuff that is taken out of context. Is there any GOOD reason to kill 42 children (or young people)? I mean, really now?
I am a christian, and I am agreeing. I have seen many times here people disregard the true nature of God. He is loving, and forgiving, long suffering and merciful, but he is also jelous, just and allows people to go to hell; something people dont want to admit often times.

Now of course, I dont think they are for stupid reasons and I wouldnt call him vicious, but you are an atheist relaying what I believe in the bible to be true and righteous, so our wording would be different, but it is true.

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#25 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 01:46 PM
 
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i'm jewish so i have never followed the new testament...however, the christian bible that people use today to justify physical disipline has been translated and rewritten so many times. the reference to stoning a son who is unruly, actually was referring to a grown-man who is a drunk and steals money from his parents. there are many things in the bible that we do not advocate today. there was incest and parents were allowed sell their children into slavery. you can't really use the text as a guide until you use it relative to the way society has evolved today, not the norm thousands of years ago.

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#26 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 02:08 PM
 
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I am not where you all are as far as GD, but I am trying to be. I just had to mention, the bible DOES say God chastens his children who he loves.

Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.




CHASTEN
Pronunciation (US):

Dictionary entry overview: What does chasten mean?

• CHASTEN (verb)
The verb CHASTEN has 3 senses:

1. censure severely
2. restrain or temper
3. correct by punishment or discipline

I think it is wrong to assume people who dont come to the same conclusion as you dont read their bible. I think perhaps they just dont come to the same conclusion. I know bible isnt well recieved around here, but I am honestly curious as to what biblical backing there is to say that God isnt vengeful, almighty, and is going to allow people to go to hell? That is all in the bible.

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#27 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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I am honestly curious as to what biblical backing there is to say that God isnt vengeful, almighty, and is going to allow people to go to hell? That is all in the bible.
Not going to debate or even discuss here but since you are honestly curious look here:
http://bible-truths.com/

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#28 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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So, if these people are using the scripture that says "rod and staff that guide me" or basically the "spare the rod, spoil the child" thought - I always say that a rod is used by shepherds to GUIDE the sheep in the way they should go, it is not used to hit the sheep. There is a big difference (obviously) but for some people they don't realized that the purpose is for steering in the correct direction not as a means of punishment.
This exactly. It is amazing what people don't know.
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#29 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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the "spare the rod, spoil the child" phrase is from a poem by samuel butler, an english/victorian, poet. there are references to a child and a rod in the bible, but that phrase is not from the bible and probably not in the same sense.

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#30 of 81 Old 06-05-2009, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by earthgirl View Post
This exactly. It is amazing what people don't know.
I know that isnt in the bible persay. I am not debating/argueing/justifying spanking a child. I am only speaking of the fact people believe God is this all loving, kind, gentle soul, which He is, but he is so much more too, including some of those things people dont want to admit He is.

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