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#91 of 104 Old 06-30-2009, 01:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
Just went back and read those posts again ... and no, the "stripper, Hooter girl, etc" reference is not in any respect connected to any "contempt for people in t-shirts."
<skip>
It just comes off very much like trying to make a point by pressing several separate, selective points and several different viewpoints together into one mould to come up with an arguement for the whole issue of standards being unsavory. What seems to be being most confused is the difference between stating a principle and citing an example.
I agree. For that matter, any of these quotes...
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Originally Posted by Doll View Post
I really hate it when people judge others. Especially Christians because as they judge, they're sinning against God themselves, which is very ironic.
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Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades View Post
To answer your question, I'd wear what I normally wear to church, which usually is pants. If a church (since I'd have to have some specific reason to be going to a house of worship of a non-Christian religion) doesn't allow pants, I don't go. If I were asked to leave, I would and be glad because I'd be very unlikely to enjoy/agree with the sermon.
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If there is one thing I cannot stand is people getting all legalistic about clothing.
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My personal view on things like this that are not direct commands from God (but rather, are mainly man-made rules and standards) is that if God wished these people to do things differently, would he not lay it on their hearts in conviction? And if he has not, why would one then think it is their job to tsk tsk about it?
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Originally Posted by Theoretica View Post
The term 'modesty' is up to so much personal interpretation, way too broad of a term. And, it's used in many many circles to mean 'proof that I'm better than" others who are 'less modest'. Kind of like a club, you can tell who 'fits' by who wears the 'right' things to church.
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Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
If that's truly the case I don't understand the focus and concern about what other people are wearing. Aren't you focusing on yourself and your version/judegement of modesty or appropriateness when you focus on what others are wearing? If the idea is truly to worship your god in those spaces, shouldn't your thoughts be on that act?
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I guess I don't understand why respecting others excludes respecting other's rights to dress how they deem is appropriate or acceptable. It sounds like you want your standards respected, but you don't respect theirs.
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You see dressing modestly as 'stretching yourself' and 'acting better'. That's the 'holier than thou' mentality I'm talking about.
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If I saw someone come to MY church in a trashy outfit, raggedy hair, whatever...I'd be glad we're such a welcoming church that she's comfortable being there.
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"Modesty" is such a vague, subjective term that it can - and often is - used to look down on those who dress a certain way.
could be taken as insults toward people who believe in modest clothing, in or out of church. I am not taking them that way, you understand; but taken out of context, they seem to say that believing in modesty is intolerant, arrogant, contrary to Biblical teaching, and only done as a way to look down on others or keep out the riffraff. Again, I am not taking it that way; both sides were just illustrating their point of view.
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#92 of 104 Old 06-30-2009, 01:59 AM
 
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Not really, because none of these quotes contain judgment of others. The original quotes, however, clearly do.

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#93 of 104 Old 06-30-2009, 03:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Theoretica View Post
The original quotes, however, clearly do.
That, apparently, is subjective. Just as is whether or not there is a clear judgment in stating that modesty is a "holier than thou" method of proving one's self or one's community better than others. It's just back to people talking past one another.
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#94 of 104 Old 06-30-2009, 07:16 AM
 
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Honestly, going back and reading the context surrounding those clips, no, I don't. For example:



in isolation easily reads quite differently than:



What I read is simply an effort to come up with examples of differing context-based standards that those who disagree with more strict standards can still understand.
Well, I guess we don't agree.
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#95 of 104 Old 09-09-2009, 12:03 PM
 
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Interesting.. and tricky. I believe we should always welcome with love everyone who comes to join us at the liturgy and thank God for their presence as I believe God has called them there. At the same time what people are wearing generally reflects the culture and as the US has become extremely casual in dress for all occasions I think that has to be taken into account, many people have never dressed up for anything.

I went to a wedding of a co-worker in the US that was celebrated by a minister in the grounds of a community center with the reception following inside. I wore what I would've worn in my own culture to a wedding which was a very nice dress, heels, fancy cardigan etc. When my husband and I arrived we found many of the guests in jeans and running shoes. People kept mistaking me for a member of the wedding party and I felt very embarrassed and overdressed. In England I would've usually worn a big hat too (we love the excuse of a big hat!) and I was SO relieved I didn't do that! I think people would've thought I just came back from the Kentucky Derby.

I was a sponsor of a young mother last year going through RCIA who had been baptised Catholic but not raised Catholic and so never Confirmed. For her Confirmation we joined with a neighboring parish and their large (60+) confirmation class, mostly teenagers. At the rehearsal the night before the bishop would arrive the parish coordinator reminded the teens of the dress code the following day "Conservative, Catholic, Cute" which I liked very much! Modest doesn't mean frumpy or not beautiful, quite the opposite. The next day the young men were all in suits or smart pants, shirt and tie and the young women in dresses or skirts about knee length or just below. If their dress did not provide coverage of their arms they wore shrugs or smart cardigans. There would be no reason why a young woman couldn't wear smart pants either of course. There is a beauty in modesty because it gives us an opportunity to see the beauty of the person without objectifying them.

The Catechism says
"Purification of the heart demands prayer, the practice of chastity, purity of intention and of vision. Purity of heart requires the modesty which is patience, decency and discretion. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person" (CCC, nos. 2532-2533)

It's a cultural thing as to what "modest" means. I don't think we should judge others but I do think it's quite funny that our local Catholic girls High School had to say in their dress code "no flip-flops or pajamas". I was amazed when I came to the US to meet teens at the local supermarket wearing their PJS and a sweatshirt. I think it's a mater of maturity as time passes people generally conform to what others are wearing. I think you'll have much more influence by being welcoming and loving and showing that you care about the inside of a person before you'll have any influence on the outside whatsoever. I used to wear miniskirts to Catholic prayer meetings as a teen but hopefully that didn't sum up the whole of who I was.
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#96 of 104 Old 09-09-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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Duchess - thank you for your lovely reply. i agree completely.

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#97 of 104 Old 09-09-2009, 04:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Duchess View Post
It's a cultural thing as to what "modest" means. I don't think we should judge others but I do think it's quite funny that our local Catholic girls High School had to say in their dress code "no flip-flops or pajamas". I was amazed when I came to the US to meet teens at the local supermarket wearing their PJS and a sweatshirt. I think it's a mater of maturity as time passes people generally conform to what others are wearing. I think you'll have much more influence by being welcoming and loving and showing that you care about the inside of a person before you'll have any influence on the outside whatsoever. I used to wear miniskirts to Catholic prayer meetings as a teen but hopefully that didn't sum up the whole of who I was.
God forbid our teenage years should define us!

Yes, I wore a few doozies too as a young person. To some extent I think many young people really have trouble seeing what kind of clothing fits in best in various situations. I remember a number of times choosing outfits that turned out to be more revealing than I really wanted, or not being able to put together an outfit that seemed to make sense, or getting clothes that fit well. I had a picture in my mind's eye (sometimes) of what I wanted to achieve, but it often didn't come out that way. And then fashion or what other people wore or suggested made it even harder to judge.

One option was to wear always the kind of thing my mom wore or suggested - she is a snappy dresser. But I really am not much like my mom, and what is appropriate for a woman in her 40s doesn't always work for a teenager.

I tend to be very generous when young women make fashion faux pas or have wardrobe issues. Young men have an easier time, there are a lot less options and more of a standard uniform.

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#98 of 104 Old 09-09-2009, 04:37 PM
 
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God forbid our teenage years should define us!

Yes, I wore a few doozies too as a young person. To some extent I think many young people really have trouble seeing what kind of clothing fits in best in various situations. I remember a number of times choosing outfits that turned out to be more revealing than I really wanted, or not being able to put together an outfit that seemed to make sense, or getting clothes that fit well. I had a picture in my mind's eye (sometimes) of what I wanted to achieve, but it often didn't come out that way. And then fashion or what other people wore or suggested made it even harder to judge.

One option was to wear always the kind of thing my mom wore or suggested - she is a snappy dresser. But I really am not much like my mom, and what is appropriate for a woman in her 40s doesn't always work for a teenager.

I tend to be very generous when young women make fashion faux pas or have wardrobe issues. Young men have an easier time, there are a lot less options and more of a standard uniform.
It's kind of funny, but I went through an awkward period in my teens as well (perhaps even longer) when it came to dressing. I blame some of that on being in Catholic school for so many years and wearing a uniform. There are some advantages to uniforms, in that you never have to think about what to wear...it's always the plaid jumper and the blue blouse...every day for 5 years. So, when you're thrown in a situation where you have to choose something to wear to school, college or work everyday, it takes a while to get good at finding something that looks good and is appropriate.

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#99 of 104 Old 09-12-2009, 09:01 PM
 
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Here is my rule of thumb. I always wear a dress or a skirt at least knee length. And something with short sleeves if the nicest and most modest things that I do have. I believe that we should always accept people as they are and not judge them by their clothing but I also feel that people should try to dress appropriately. Just my 2 cents!
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#100 of 104 Old 09-13-2009, 01:20 AM
 
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And I think you can have it both ways. for me to judge someone else or concern myself with what they are wearing is sin on my part. but at the same time i think it is important for each person to bring their best for worshipping and to consider others when they dress. but the only persons clothes I need to be concerned about is my own. (and my children of course. I watch what their godmothers wear because i kinda figure since their godmothers are teenagers they are really role models. but thanki goodness the godmothers are really good about being cute and stylish while being modest. at least at church I might be moved to talk with them if they were dressing iffy. but one of the reasons I chose them as godmothers is because of their shining example in all thing including their midfulness of how they dress when they come to worship)

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#101 of 104 Old 09-14-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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Something rather ironic (and amusing, given the situation) happened recently at my church that nicely illustrates the casual but modest vs. dressed up but immodest divide.

A woman in her late 50s - a member's SO, but not a member herself, but we see her 1-2 Sundays a month - has publicly chewed out at least one woman (a member) for dressing casually (nice t-shirt and dressier jeans). This woman (the one doing the chewing out) is western European and always dresses very sharp - think of an outfit for a *very* nice dinner out - but inappropriate for an Orthodox church: tight and low cut on the top, with tight and very short skirts. What I find rather amusing about the whole situation - she's living with the parish member who is her SO, which has resulted in him being denied all access to the sacraments until he either stops living with her or marries her.

There seems to be something of the European thinking that Americans are too casual in this situation, but I'll take decent looking casual over dressed up but immodest just about any day - aside from a wedding/funeral.

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#102 of 104 Old 09-14-2009, 06:59 PM
 
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Something rather ironic (and amusing, given the situation) happened recently at my church that nicely illustrates the casual but modest vs. dressed up but immodest divide.

A woman in her late 50s - a member's SO, but not a member herself, but we see her 1-2 Sundays a month - has publicly chewed out at least one woman (a member) for dressing casually (nice t-shirt and dressier jeans). This woman (the one doing the chewing out) is western European and always dresses very sharp - think of an outfit for a *very* nice dinner out - but inappropriate for an Orthodox church: tight and low cut on the top, with tight and very short skirts. What I find rather amusing about the whole situation - she's living with the parish member who is her SO, which has resulted in him being denied all access to the sacraments until he either stops living with her or marries her.

There seems to be something of the European thinking that Americans are too casual in this situation, but I'll take decent looking casual over dressed up but immodest just about any day - aside from a wedding/funeral.
How is the bolded amusing?
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#103 of 104 Old 09-14-2009, 08:20 PM
 
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How is the bolded amusing?
It's amusing because in many faiths, living with and having relations with a person you aren't married to is considered a grave sin, which makes you ineligible (sp?) for any of the sacraments. You have essentially cut yourself off from the sacraments (and the religion) by your actions, so her chewing out a perfectly good person with "dressed casually" as their only visible "sin" is VERY ironic, as she is not herself participating in the sacraments.

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#104 of 104 Old 09-14-2009, 08:32 PM
 
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It's amusing because in many faiths, living with and having relations with a person you aren't married to is considered a grave sin, which makes you ineligible (sp?) for any of the sacraments. You have essentially cut yourself off from the sacraments (and the religion) by your actions, so her chewing out a perfectly good person with "dressed casually" as their only visible "sin" is VERY ironic, as she is not herself participating in the sacraments.
Not only that, but the woman who did the chewing out is *not* Orthodox and as a result, not a member of the parish. She's only there maybe 1-2 Sundays a month. Her SO is a member of the parish, and the one denied access to the sacraments, due to their living together. She's not Orthodox, so can't partake of any of the sacraments (we have closed Communion) anyway (aside from being married in the Orthodox Church to her Orthodox SO, if she is Christian. I'm not sure if she's even a Christian, at least not a practicing one. Given her native country, she could be either Catholic or Protestant).

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