Do I have to believe everything the Catholic church believes to be Catholic? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 92 Old 08-29-2009, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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After spending 8 years at our local Waldorf school, our children - ages 8 and 12 - will be going to a Catholic school next week. We are going to start attending their school's parish.

I was raised Catholic, but am not a practicing Catholic. I am thinking of renewing my faith as one.

The question is - can I be Catholic if I believe that same sex marriage should be legal and in birth control? The Catholic church doesn't believe in either, right?? I can't image I have to believe everything the Catholic church believes, but maybe I'm wrong.

Please enlighten me!

Thank you...
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#2 of 92 Old 08-29-2009, 10:57 PM
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I don't really understand the desire to belong to a group whose beliefs you disagree with. Those are big issues in the Catholic church.
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#3 of 92 Old 08-30-2009, 12:20 AM
 
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I think that is something you should dicuss with your priest.

but I would think to actually belong, rather than just show up and sign up, you woul dhave to accept the churches athourity and teachings in these matters.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#4 of 92 Old 08-30-2009, 12:28 AM
 
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I think you'll get as many answers as there are Catholics. There are many Catholics who consider themselves Catholic but don't adhere to everything the church authority proclaims. I personally believe that one can be Catholic, follow the teachings of Jesus, be a part of the apostolic tradition and yet not agree with everything that the Pope and Vatican proclaim. But that's me, that's not your priest or your own conscience.

IMHO, the Catholic church is the original Christian church, founded by Jesus and continued by Peter and the other apostles. Things have crept in over the centuries. The mass was essentially the same for hundreds of years until Vatican II. If we can have the changes of Vatican II, then what other changes could happen in the future? Remember that the heretics of yore often become prophets as the centuries pass.

anway, good luck to you!

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#5 of 92 Old 08-30-2009, 12:31 AM
 
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I don't really understand the desire to belong to a group whose beliefs you disagree with. Those are big issues in the Catholic church.
I think there are a number of reasons to want to belong to the Catholic faith, even if you don't agree with every teaching, and I also believe that there are degrees of disbelief.

People may want to join the Catholic faith because of the liturgy, the communion, the community, the social justice, or simply because God is calling them there. It may be that while they are not 100% in step with the Catholic Church, they are closer to them than other Churches.

I also would think that very few people are in 100% agreement with the Church. The more conservative members may support the death penalty, or the war in Iraq, although it was declared unjust by the Church. More liberal members may disagree on issues like the ones mentioned in this thread. There is also a lot of disagreement on economic systems, how to respond to the poor, things like Liberation Theology, whether or not lay people can give communion, and the reforms brought in by Vatican II.

On the issue of gay marriage, I liken it to divorce. I don't know any Catholics who are lobbying to make divorce illegal even though it is not sufficient for Catholics. I think it would be reasonable to say that you support marriage for gay couples, but not think that it should be blessed or recognized by the Catholic Church.

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#6 of 92 Old 08-30-2009, 01:22 AM
 
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I grew up Catholic....the majority of the Catholics I knew didnt agree with many of the "man-made" laws.

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#7 of 92 Old 08-30-2009, 01:06 PM
 
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Well, this is definitely an issue to take up with a well-formed priest, and not to rely on the opinions of women on a forum. It is a very serious issue and you want to get the right answer, not just a majority, or one that sounds good to you.

I will point out that there is a difference between not believing -- and not wanting to believe, and not believing currently -- but wanting to form your beliefs to the Church because you recognize Her authority. The latter may leave you unbelieving your entire life, but it is possible to be in a state of grace & receive Communion. The former, probably not.

Either way this should absolutely be discussed with a Priest - I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to you about it so you shouldn't feel shy. Call the rectory and schedule an appointment.

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#8 of 92 Old 08-30-2009, 02:29 PM
 
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There are some minor choices my church has made that I do not agree with (certain people who were called martyrs and sainted and think it is kinda a stretch) but I still accept their athourity and follow their ruling without whining or ranting about it or judging others who are more excited about the descision. DOes that make sense.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#9 of 92 Old 08-31-2009, 10:28 PM
 
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I posted a question similar to this a few weeks ago. My own opinion, (and FYI I will not respond to those who wish to hijack this thread to tell me I am wrong, it is only MY opinion based on my understanding, discussions with priests, prayer and meditation, and respectful listening for God's response) is that change in the church comes from within the church. I do not actively seek to throw out all the old rules & regulations ...but I am a Catholic and I believe the same as the OP re: same sex marriage (what's marriage anyway...a love-contract by any other name is still what it is) and a few other minor details in the church rub my conscience the wrong way.

I found this (and posted it in the previous thread)

From the Vatican II documents:

...This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...verbum_en.html

It seems to me like there is space to manoeuver (sp?) but change requires "contemplation and study", which of course, takes time. My 2-cents.

Kate: fumbling through the best years with W, L, F & V...newest arrival coming Jan '11
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#10 of 92 Old 08-31-2009, 11:13 PM
 
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For me, no. That is why I am no longer Catholic.

Good luck on your journey.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#11 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 09:28 AM
 
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It's one thing to say you don't get a doctrine, or to disagree about things that are left open to the individual. But it is also important to remember that theology is a systematic endeavor - rulings like the ones on birth control come from other beliefs and principles. So if you reject their restrictions on who can marry, it implies you are also rejecting at least elements of their theology of marriage, possibly their understanding of the sacraments, and their theology of sexuality or gender. All of those things suggest you may be rejecting their understanding of scripture and tradition, two of the most basic elements of Catholicism. I'm sure you can see that disagreeing at that level would have real problems if you wanted to be a Catholic. How could you be married in the Church, for example, if you have a real disagreement with her understanding of marriage? Get up and say the words without believing them? Not intend to do what the priest expects you to? those things would clearly be dishonest, and not a good way to conduct one's religious life.

So, do you feel you have a really strong grasp of those doctrines that you disagree with - why the Church has ruled the way she has? Is the actual point in which you differ with the Church only fairly minor, or does it go back to some of their more basic understandings?

The other element is obedience. In Catholicism, there is an element of obedience that you willingly enter into. Obedience to the Bishop, to the Pope, to Tradition, to the Church. Now, there are a few occasions when it can be appropriate to break obedience, just like with civil authority. But for the most part, you are essentially saying that you will be bound by the limits the Church puts on her followers. So although you may never really understand the whole Theology of the Body and birth control restrictions, you will agree to follow them as long as they exist.

Our culture doesn't tend to value obedience. But I think it's interesting to note that all religions see an important place for real obedience, and not just to abstract principles but to actual institutions or individuals, in spiritual formation.

However, many people do struggle with doctrines for one reason or another and yet stay as member, even obedient members of the Church. There is nothing wrong with acting as a member but struggling. On the other hand, to claim membership, disagree on doctrine, not try to come to an understanding, and to disobey? And then perhaps partake of the sacraments? What is the point? It seems more destructive of spirituality than anything else.

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#12 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 10:58 AM
 
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Short answer: Yes.

Bluegoat: Right on!

Joyfulheart: Out of curiousity, why do you think you may want to become an active Catholic again? What is it about the Catholic Church that attracts you, as opposed to other churchs that may believe things that are more in line with your thinking?

Corrie, "trad" Catholic, wife to DH and Mom to DD (4/07), DS (2/09), DD (2/11), DD (4/13), two angel babies. 
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#13 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 12:42 PM
 
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I have questioned my mom many times on why she remains Catholic when she disagrees with so much of their doctrine --- gay marriage, annullments, abortion and more. She doesnt really know, she just feels she is Catholic.

The Church I grew up in and both my Catholic grade and highschools, at least half (probably the mjority) of the people were pro-choice. Perhaps it was because we lived in a very open liberal area? I dont know.

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#14 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 01:48 PM
 
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OP Your question made me smile because the answer that came to mind was: Sure, everywhere but in the Spirituality forum of Mothering.

The Church is broad and has been a force for tremendous good and caring in the world. We can't deny the times we have failed, both historically and in contemporary times, but those failure cannot and should not define Her.

I love the Irish Jesuits site sacredspace.ie

You might find it refreshing to spend some time there thinking about what you can offer the Church and what She can offer you.

Church law and teachings have carried the institution through many different times. They change in a glacial way when they change at all.

Focus on the beautiful parts that you agree with and see where the Spirit leads you.
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#15 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Focus on the beautiful parts that you agree with and see where the Spirit leads you.
That, I will do!



Thank you for all of your thoughtful responses. You have given me much to think about.
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#16 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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I have questioned my mom many times on why she remains Catholic when she disagrees with so much of their doctrine --- gay marriage, annullments, abortion and more. She doesnt really know, she just feels she is Catholic.

The Church I grew up in and both my Catholic grade and highschools, at least half (probably the mjority) of the people were pro-choice. Perhaps it was because we lived in a very open liberal area? I dont know.
I think in many cases people feel a certain identity with or comfort from the Church they grew up in.

However, Christianity has never been a religion that cares what your cultural background is in that sense. It is what is called a creedal religion - it actually cares about what you believe. It isn't true of all religions, or institutions, or categories. I'm Canadian because I was born here and am a citizen. I couldn't change that if I wanted to.

A Christian is defined as someone who holds certain beliefs. If you were raised in a Christian church, but no longer hold to their essential beliefs, you can simply say you were raised a Christian, and it will have some kind of meaning to you (good, bad or neutral) but you can't say you are a Christian. So it's more like being a Communist, or an Aristotelian - calling yourself one of those things without relation to actual belief is just odd.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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#17 of 92 Old 09-01-2009, 05:06 PM
 
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I couldn't do it, but many people do. I think this board tends to be dominated by people who are far more conservative and traditionalist than your average Catholic.

I come from a very huge and very Catholic family and live in a very Catholic part of the country. I don't know a single Catholic that doesn't use standard birth control (not "NFP"). In fact, Catholics as a whole use standard birth control at just about the same statistical rate as non-Catholics.

I know plenty of Catholics who've conceived via IVF or donor egg. I know plenty of pro-choice Catholics. I know many divorced and remarried Catholics, sans annulment. Just about every Catholic I know thinks the Vatican is dead wrong on the subject of women's ordination and celibacy.

Personally, I can't imagine voluntarily joining an organization whose teachings and practices I vehemently disagree with, but lots of people do.
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#18 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 02:52 AM
 
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I couldn't do it either - be a part of a religion that had main tenants with which I disagreed. But, I know many people who make it work by focusing on what they do agree with.

I went to Catholic school as well, and was raised Catholic. We had to take a religion class every year at both my grade school and my high school. I always tell my mom that those religion classes are the number one thing that contributed to my becoming an atheist. This is nothing against Catholicism, by the way ... it's just my school's religion classes that were horrendous.

My mom on the other hand still considers herself a Catholic, goes to Church, goes to confession. But, she used birth control, thinks same sex marriage is fine, and thinks the Catholic Church should allow women to be priests, cardinals, etc.

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#19 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 10:24 AM
 
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Sailor: I went to Catholic school and catechism classes. You are right, they were AWFUL. Boring as heck.... It's too bad really, because many people end up being tunrned off to the Catholic faith because of classes like those.

Corrie, "trad" Catholic, wife to DH and Mom to DD (4/07), DS (2/09), DD (2/11), DD (4/13), two angel babies. 
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#20 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 04:54 PM
 
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We Catholics have such issues! Let me preface my answer with I am Catholic, practicing, involved and no way do I believe everything the Church asks us to believe. I've struggled for a looooong time with my *religion*. Not my faith though. I have faith in God, in Jesus and in all of the basic tenants of Christianity. I've hopped from church to church and while it's made my husband crazy (and seen things he really liked about other churches), I learned a LOT about Christianity and the bible and Jesus and God's hope for us (which I did not learn in all my years of Catholic schooling/attending church). Throughout my 21 years of school (including college and graduate), I spent only 3 of those in public school...so I have been raised in Catholic schools. If you want to look at one "problem" with Catholic schooling, one is there is not really uniformity. I personally liked this as a student and when I was teaching in a Catholic school b/c I didn't agree with so many of the things the church was trying to do and the things they didn't 'approve' of...however, it makes Catholics like us confused, angry and feeling lost b/c we're all learning different things and things that are just not life-changing views...so much of it is about the rituals rather than the meaning behind them. There is a great support group for progressive minded (as far as the church goes) Catholics which I am a part of. It's nationwide and is online as well as has small groups in some areas. CTA (Call to action) is the name of it. The short answer to your question is, of course you can be Catholic without believing in everything the pope does, however, this may leave you feeling frustrated. One thing I do is try to learn why the greater Church believes what they do...I don't buy it often...so so so much is man made and that's very frustrating, but at least you can try to understand the "whys" of the "rules". Personally, being Catholic is so much more to me than the rules. It's receiving communion, taking part in the liturgy and more than anything, it's just plain ingrained in me...that's why I don't think I could ever fully leave the church (I've tried and always ended up right back). You might want to take your time in finding a church home. Some priests (unfortunately these days, younger ones) are very conservative, close-minded and stuffy, but some are really cool guys, very openminded and open to your questions/concerns. Whatever you decide, good luck. The church has a hold on people for sure, and there are bad things about it, as there any other church, but more than that, so much good is done (peace and justice types of things for starters) by and from the people of the church. That's something I struggled to find elsewhere. Sorry to ramble...this is just so much more of a discussion that would be better to have in person! Good luck!

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#21 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 06:35 PM
 
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Can I just ask one question of all the Catholics reading and posting on this thread? Just out of curiousity: Do you believe in the Church's teaching that the bread and wine become the actual, physical body and blood of Christ? That when you receive "communion" you are actually consuming the real body of Jesus Christ... the creator of the universe and the God who is responsible for every single beating heart?

Curious to know....

Corrie, "trad" Catholic, wife to DH and Mom to DD (4/07), DS (2/09), DD (2/11), DD (4/13), two angel babies. 
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#22 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 09:17 PM
 
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Can I just ask one question of all the Catholics reading and posting on this thread? Just out of curiousity: Do you believe in the Church's teaching that the bread and wine become the actual, physical body and blood of Christ? That when you receive "communion" you are actually consuming the real body of Jesus Christ... the creator of the universe and the God who is responsible for every single beating heart?

Curious to know....
cagnew: I'm so sorry you had bad experiences with catechesis. I was blessed to have both gifted, pastoral teachers and wonderful models duirng my faith formation.

I've never met a Catholic who didn't believe in transubstantiation. Have you?
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#23 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 10:11 PM
 
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I'm subscribing so I can keep on learning more.

I just recently started a thread here titled "Catholicism and Inclusiveness," where I've been learning a lot.

Bridie, it's exciting to meet a Catholic here who's a member of Call to Action! Because that's one site I've seen that is very inspiring to me.

I've also been inspired to start learning about the Catholic Worker movement, which someone on the other thread turned me on to. There's actually a new Catholic Worker house in my neighborhood, and they have clarification meetings the first Friday of every month. I plan to go this Friday.

It sounds like this may be a good way for me to get to know Catholicism better, since the Catholic Worker movement is not an official organ of the Catholic Church, and you don't even have to be Catholic to volunteer or be involved with them.

I'm not sure if it's right for me or my family to actually become members -- but I think we need to become more "knit" into our community. Our previous experience is with fundamentalist churches -- but I don't want my children raised with fear of hell like I was.

I'm actually a Christian Universalist now -- and I've read enough to realize that this is seen as a heresy by the Catholic Church. I am wondering if kids in Catholic Church are likely to hear scary stuff about hell like kids do in fundamentalist churches?

I obviously have a lot to learn. As to why I'm interested in the Catholic Church and not some other church with teachings I agree with more -- I think mainly it's important to me to be part of a neighborhood church, where the church is just an extension of my family and community.

And my immediate neighborhood seems predominantly Catholic or fundamentalist.

And I'm also inspired by what I've read so far of the Catechism, and also I'm inspired by the Rosary -- I'm starting to learn the prayers and want to get a pink rosary I saw online for around $8.00.

As I've shared on the other thread, it's been fascinating for me to learn about Father Daniel A. Helminiak, who openly disagrees with some church teachings -- and is openly-gay, but the Vatican has never accepted his resignation, so as he puts it, he remains a Catholic priest by the Vatican's decision.

http://www.visionsofdaniel.net/

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#24 of 92 Old 09-02-2009, 11:41 PM
 
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chfriend: Sadly, yes. Even more sadly (sorry about the horrible grammar), I have taked to many Catholics that have never really thought about it

mammal_mama: Because Catholics believe in hell and believe that it is very possible to go there after you die, there is chance that that will be discussed from the pulpit. It largely depends on the church you go to and the pastor presiding. Do you believe in hell?

Corrie, "trad" Catholic, wife to DH and Mom to DD (4/07), DS (2/09), DD (2/11), DD (4/13), two angel babies. 
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#25 of 92 Old 09-03-2009, 12:21 AM
 
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Can I just ask one question of all the Catholics reading and posting on this thread? Just out of curiousity: Do you believe in the Church's teaching that the bread and wine become the actual, physical body and blood of Christ? That when you receive "communion" you are actually consuming the real body of Jesus Christ... the creator of the universe and the God who is responsible for every single beating heart?

Curious to know....

I am not Catholic. I am Orthodox but yes, I do believe that it is really the body and blood of Christ. I don't get it. I don't know how it works but I believe it is true.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#26 of 92 Old 09-03-2009, 12:42 AM
 
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Can I just ask one question of all the Catholics reading and posting on this thread? Just out of curiousity: Do you believe in the Church's teaching that the bread and wine become the actual, physical body and blood of Christ? That when you receive "communion" you are actually consuming the real body of Jesus Christ... the creator of the universe and the God who is responsible for every single beating heart?

Curious to know....
YES! I think, that if on some level you aren't just terrified... awestruck...paralyzed by wonder when you go to receive Communion, you're doing something wrong.

This is one of my favorite prayers:

A PRAYER BEFORE MASS (By St. Thomas Aquinas)
Almighty and everlasting God, behold I come to the Sacrament of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: I come as one infirm to the physician of life, as one unclean to the fountain of mercy, as one blind to the light of everlasting brightness, as one poor and needy to the Lord of heaven and earth. Therefore I implore the abundance of Thy measureless bounty that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to heal my infirmity, wash my uncleanness, enlighten my blindness, enrich my poverty and clothe my nakedness, that I may receive the Bread of Angels, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, with such reverence and humility, with such sorrow and devotion, with such purity and faith, with such purpose and intention as may be profitable to my soul’s salvation. Grant unto me, I pray, the grace of receiving not only the Sacrament of our Lord’s Body and Blood, but also the grace and power of the Sacrament. O most gracious God, grant me so to receive the Body of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, which He took from the Virgin Mary, as to merit to be incorporated into His mystical Body, and to be numbered amongst His members. O most loving Father, give me grace to behold forever Thy beloved Son with His face at last unveiled, whom I now purpose to receive under the sacramental veil here below.
Amen.

XM,: mama to ds (5/08), dd (9/10) and ds (6/12) ! whale.gif :C.H.S & M.

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#27 of 92 Old 09-03-2009, 01:24 AM
 
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Regarding contraception...I am a former Roman Catholic, most of my relatives and friends are RC, and I have only met one RC person in my entire life who did not believe in and/or practice birth control. I am sure there are others, but the majority plan their families in much the same way non-Catholics do.
I think there is a difference between those who believe the RC teaching is right, but who decide to use contraception anyway; and those who think the RC teaching on contraception is wrong and should change. The first category still believe in RC teaching, even if they do not follow it, if you see what I mean.
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#28 of 92 Old 09-03-2009, 10:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagnew View Post
Can I just ask one question of all the Catholics reading and posting on this thread? Just out of curiousity: Do you believe in the Church's teaching that the bread and wine become the actual, physical body and blood of Christ? That when you receive "communion" you are actually consuming the real body of Jesus Christ... the creator of the universe and the God who is responsible for every single beating heart?

Curious to know....
Well, I'm not Catholic either, but I also believe the bread and wine become the physical body and blood of Christ. I like the doctrine of transubstantiation, since I am a big fan of Aristotle, but my Church (like the Orthodox) doesn't insist upon it as the explanation - I tend to agree, I am not going to tie God down to Aristotelian categories. But however it happens, I do think it does.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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#29 of 92 Old 09-03-2009, 10:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Regarding contraception...I am a former Roman Catholic, most of my relatives and friends are RC, and I have only met one RC person in my entire life who did not believe in and/or practice birth control. I am sure there are others, but the majority plan their families in much the same way non-Catholics do.
I think there is a difference between those who believe the RC teaching is right, but who decide to use contraception anyway; and those who think the RC teaching on contraception is wrong and should change. The first category still believe in RC teaching, even if they do not follow it, if you see what I mean.
I agree that this is a big difference and it also fits my observation. I'd be interested though, why in your experience do they choose to disobey on this if they think the teaching is valid?

I find that people do not have good information about NFP (practical and people have some weird theoretical ideas about it too); they don't trust that having a larger family might actually not be as great a hardship as they think; they are scared by a culture that is largely anti-family; they have bought into the idea that they won't be able to abstain periodically; they just don't know anyone who does it so can't picture how it will work.

I think the Catholic Church should consider some initiatives to support larger families as well, those that struggle because of Church teaching often don't find a lot of support there compared to Protestant congregations, IMO.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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#30 of 92 Old 09-03-2009, 11:47 AM
 
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Bluegoat: I agree. The Church (well, the clergy) does need to start supporting large families and educating the people on NFP and Catholic teachings regarding artificial contraceptives. Most people think it's crazy to have a big family ("in this economy?!?!"), but it really isn't as hard as one might think. I live in a area with many big families, and pray to have a big family of my own. Honestly, I think the clergy needs to go beyond just stating that you can't use birth control and start with teaching about what a family is- the role of husband and father, wife and mother.

Big families are beautiful. Yes, they live more simply. Yes, the mother usually stays home with the kids (which is a good thing, IMHO). THey have to prioritize... the kids don't generally have cell phones and video games and name brand clothes... but they have LIFE for eternity! Awesome! And none of the kids in the big families I know are unhappy or weird or antisocial (sp). They are just happy, healthy, good kids. Sure, there are always going to be exceptions... but that's all they are, exceptions.

Anyway, thanks for the post

Corrie, "trad" Catholic, wife to DH and Mom to DD (4/07), DS (2/09), DD (2/11), DD (4/13), two angel babies. 
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