Has anyone seen the movie Expelled: No Intellegence Allowed? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
Oh, and it doubly bugs me that most ID-ers (not all, of course) tend to not follow other parts of the bible, but they take Genesis literally. How many ID-ers enjoy their morning bacon, even though G-d said not to eat it? How many ID-ers are railing against the fact that we don't stone people for the crimes mentioned in Leviticus? IMO, it's selective and it brings the whole argument down. The bible CAN.NOT be taken 100% literally. We just pick and choose which parts to take or not.
Christian IDers don't feel the need to follow the law given to the Jews because we see Christ as the fulfillment of that law. This doesn't mean we believe the Old Testement is myth, quite the opposite. We rejoice that we no longer have to live under a system of law and sacrifice, but rather one of grace.

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#62 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 02:44 PM
 
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I was not actually talking about ID, but I can see it comes to much the same thing. What I was saying is that, in our current understanding, the physical universe is not sufficient. Inanimate matter cannot bring itself into existence. This could mean our understanding of the universe might be faulty, or might be incomplete; or that our understanding of the concept of existence is incomplete; or else that the universe came from something outside and different from the natural world.
The idea I was trying to get at is, the universe "coming from nothing" or "creating itself" is not the most scientific or logical explanation, but is more acceptable to most scientists because it avoids any hint of a creator.
I think most scientists, religious or not, will agree with the bolded.

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This is a bit off-topic, but when the topic of religion comes up, stating you are a Christian is a generally accepted response, and a pretty common one. Stating you are an atheist usually brings a very different response and usually a quick change of subject.
Saying that you're a Jew is oftentimes worse. I know my agnostic husband usually just gets an "ok......" a couple of seconds of uncomfortable silence, and then a comment about the weather.

I have been asked if I've heard "the saving gospel of Jesus Christ" by a man in a department store, when I stopped him to ask him a question about men's tie sizings. I had to leave the store because he wouldn't leave me alone, trying to proselytize to me "You DO know that none can go to heaven except through Christ, right?" was shouted at me as I walked out of the store - by a different man.

Just this week, as I was trying to find a jeweler to resize the chain on my DS's Star of David necklace, I had a woman behind the jewelry counter say (no lie):

W: Is this a cross of David?
Me: It's a star of David, yes.
W: *small gasp* You're JEWISH??
Me: Yeeeesss....
W: *grabs my hand* Oh my goodness! I LOVE Jewish people. My savior was Jewish!

No lie. I looked around, disbelieving, and the other women in the store were smiling and nodding. It's incredible how insensitive, patronizing, and downright rude majority religions can be - no matter if you're in a majority Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Jewish country. Being in the majority - especially as a scientist or academician - affords you luxuries that those of us in the minority don't have.

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#63 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 02:52 PM
 
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Christian IDers don't feel the need to follow the law given to the Jews because we see Christ as the fulfillment of that law. This doesn't mean we believe the Old Testement is myth, quite the opposite. We rejoice that we no longer have to live under a system of law and sacrifice, but rather one of grace.
I get that - but again, we're all picking and choosing what parts to follow. Your tradition says that you don't have to follow Leviticus, but as an ID-er you believe that the creation story in Genesis was meant to be taken literally, right? (Just as a disclaimer, I think I'm just as guilty of picking and choosing as you, so don't think I'm coming at this from "we do it right, you do it wrong." )

Oh, and I'm interested - a question for ID-ers. WHICH creation account do you take literally and which do you NOT take literally? Because Gen 1 and Gen 2 have two totally different accounts with different timelines. I'm interested in which one is accepted and which is rejected and why.

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#64 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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I'm at this. ID posits that our world was intentionally designed by some intelligent being(s), no? Surely a creature that is intelligent and has the power to create a universe would be considered a God by our standards. What else would you call it? Granted, it doesn't have to be Yahweh or Shiva or any one of the particular Gods in our human religions, but a God nonetheless.

Under ID, if it wasn't a God, then what designed the universe?
My belief is that the entire universe is intelligent and you can't separate the designer from the designed. There was no "creator" who made the universe "out of nothing" because the creator is the creation - it always was in existence (just like Christians claim that their creator God was always in existence).

That's very different from a God who is separate from its creation and not subject to the same natural laws of what it created. It's also very different from the atheist belief that the universe and life just randomly happened. So if I were to explain ID from my point of view, it would look a lot different from how a Christian might explain it. I'm looking for the intelligent designer as part of the universe, not apart from it.

Hope that made at least a little bit of sense.
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#65 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 03:10 PM
 
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I get that - but again, we're all picking and choosing what parts to follow. Your tradition says that you don't have to follow Leviticus, but as an ID-er you believe that the creation story in Genesis was meant to be taken literally, right?
It really isn't picking and choosing, it's taking the entire Scripture (what we see as scripture) in it's entirety. I believe the Bible to be true, the whole thing. I (attempt) to follow the whole thing. That means that I take Christ's words literally when he said that the law used to be important, but is not necessary to be followed now. It serves a purpose for me in showing me my sin and allowing me to appreciate that I no longer need to atone for my sin.

If Christ had not said that or done what he did, I would still follow the law.

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#66 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 04:09 PM
 
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It really isn't picking and choosing, it's taking the entire Scripture (what we see as scripture) in it's entirety. I believe the Bible to be true, the whole thing. I (attempt) to follow the whole thing. That means that I take Christ's words literally when he said that the law used to be important, but is not necessary to be followed now. It serves a purpose for me in showing me my sin and allowing me to appreciate that I no longer need to atone for my sin.

If Christ had not said that or done what he did, I would still follow the law.
Thank goodness Christ came along so the laws in Leviticus no longer apply! In all seriousness though - God in the Old Testament comes across as a murdering tyrant. Hypothetically, if you lived in the time before Christ, would you really be agreeable to these laws? Homosexuals being put to death? Being unclean, just for being a woman, for giving birth, for menstruating? If God created us, flawed as we are, I wonder why all the punishment is necessary. I've never been able to wrap my head around the idea of God, but especially not the God depicted in the Bible, the Old Testament particularly. The fact that those laws no longer apply doesn't change the fact that once upon a time they did. And so much of what is written in Leviticus is appalling. I'm not trying to be offensive or combative here - I just really can't understand worshiping a God who wished to punish people so mercilessly, for things they didn't ever have a hope of controlling.
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#67 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 06:29 PM
 
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Thank goodness Christ came along so the laws in Leviticus no longer apply! In all seriousness though - God in the Old Testament comes across as a murdering tyrant. Hypothetically, if you lived in the time before Christ, would you really be agreeable to these laws? Homosexuals being put to death? Being unclean, just for being a woman, for giving birth, for menstruating? If God created us, flawed as we are, I wonder why all the punishment is necessary. I've never been able to wrap my head around the idea of God, but especially not the God depicted in the Bible, the Old Testament particularly. The fact that those laws no longer apply doesn't change the fact that once upon a time they did. And so much of what is written in Leviticus is appalling. I'm not trying to be offensive or combative here - I just really can't understand worshiping a God who wished to punish people so mercilessly, for things they didn't ever have a hope of controlling.
.......... I think this is a different thread, honestly.

There are those of us, especially Jews, who do try to follow the laws as laid out and take them very seriously. There are thousands of years of writing and rabbinic thought about these things and reconciling what you find so "appalling." There are many of us who worship that merciless G-d you speak of because we feel that if he did, indeed, create us - do we have a choice but to honor that?

I'm really trying not to be offended because it's obvious there is little understanding of the thousands of years of discussion and debate surrounding these issues - especially the women's issues you spoke of, a system that actually (IMO) empowers women - so I'm going to leave it at that. These things are being misunderstood.

... and I'm going to go "observe the seventh day" (Exodus 20:8-10), as the bible tells me. See you on Saturday night.

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#68 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 07:53 PM
 
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I honestly was not trying to be offensive, as I stated earlier. I realize that I am misunderstanding, from your perspective, and am attempting to understand. I'm sure that, religious or not, I'm not the only one who struggles with such things? I'm not trying to condemn or disrespect, just to gain some insight. Sorry if it came out the wrong way.

You are right though - it is a different thread.
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#69 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It is very much a case of misunderstanding things. Very much so. Misunderstanding scripture as well as Eviesmom's attempts to explain it. There are times when I know that there is no way to explain these things in a way that will make someone else understand, I feel this is one of those times. There are things, Caitlinlea, that you mentioned that I do understand. I do understand you being aghast but I have also gained an understanding of some of the scripture you are talking about. Otoh, there are things that I have yet to come to an understanding about. I do understand what Evie is saying tho. About sin and the Old Testament Law being the means that God set about to help us recognise sin. I also see what Sme is saying about a lot of the stuff in the OT being empowering to women, at the same time causing us to recognise that we cant escape this sinful body. As far as mensturation and childbirth causing a woman to be unclean, there was also a time of purification, which made her clean again. All there to show us we cant escape this body of sin. This is my understanding. Then Christ came to make us clean, to take away our sin. This is what Eviesmom was talking about. I know I explained it as best I could. And yep, its another thread, but thats ok. We muddle thru these things here. I dont mind that.
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#70 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 08:30 PM
 
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I agree with Sara that the topic you've raised, caitlinlea is really better suited to another discussion.

But let's not forget that one of Jesus' central teachings came directly from Leviticus: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Leviticus 19:18)
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#71 of 227 Old 11-20-2009, 08:35 PM
 
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Again, I apologize for the digression!
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#72 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Caitlin, dont worry about it. Honestly. We posted at the same time before anyway. You had already apologised.

The stuff about Christians supposedly not following the entire OT Law is for another thread to, I would think, but again I dont mind trying to explain where Im coming from if someone has a genuine question about it.

As long as we get back on topic its all good.

And the topic is Intellegent Design, or more specifically the movie Expelled: No Intellegence Allowed.
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#73 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 11:33 AM
 
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So to get back to the movie...I have a question for those of you who liked it.

What do you think of Ben Steins insistence that embracing evolution leads to genocide? He's quoted (not in the movie) as saying "Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." Do you think science leads to killing people?

And what do you think of the way the movie gets this point across? I'll quote a little from an article in Scientific American to illustrate...

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Expelling intelligent design from American classrooms and culture will inexorably take us down a path of doom, and the film’s blunt editing intersperses interview snippets from evolutionary biologists with black-and-white clips of, in ascending scale of ominousness, bullies pounding on a 98-pound weakling; Charlton Heston’s character in Planet of the Apes being blasted by a water hose by a gorilla thug; Nikita Khrushchev pounding his fist on a United Nations desk; East Germans captured trying to scale the Berlin Wall; and Nazi crematoria remains and Holocaust victims being bulldozed into mass graves. The formula is unmistakable: Darwinism = death.
Do you think this was an honest portrayal of what happens when science is taught without ID theories?
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#74 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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Do you think this was an honest portrayal of what happens when science is taught without ID theories?

I think it's an honest portrayal of what CAN happen. Does that mean it will always happen, no. I think the overarching idea is that if you look historically at countries that ban certain religions, there is usually an increasing amount of brutality shown to people of those religions. We've seen it in Nazi Germany, the former Soviet Union, and in modern day communist countries. Do I think that's happening in the U.S.? No. Do I think there is a chance that in the future it may happen? I think the chance is there. That's where I think the fear comes from. People don't want to see our country even starting to move in that general direction.

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#75 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 12:50 PM
 
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I think it's an honest portrayal of what CAN happen. Does that mean it will always happen, no. I think the overarching idea is that if you look historically at countries that ban certain religions, there is usually an increasing amount of brutality shown to people of those religions. We've seen it in Nazi Germany, the former Soviet Union, and in modern day communist countries. Do I think that's happening in the U.S.? No. Do I think there is a chance that in the future it may happen? I think the chance is there. That's where I think the fear comes from. People don't want to see our country even starting to move in that general direction.
I agree that banning religions is a bad idea and can lead to all kinds of brutality. As a pagan, I really do get that point.

But this isn't the same as banning religion at all. Religion taught as religion isn't under siege at all, as far as I can see. What we're talking about here is teaching religion as science, and what Ben Stein is saying is that taking religion out of science will lead to genocide. He has explicitly said that in interviews, and the points he made in this movie were very much the same. He is saying that religion belongs in science classrooms because without it we get Nazi death camps.

The Anti-Defamation League said this about the movie:
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The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.

Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler's genocidal madness.

Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.
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#76 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 05:11 PM
 
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What do you think of Ben Steins insistence that embracing evolution leads to genocide? He's quoted (not in the movie) as saying "Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." Do you think science leads to killing people?
I'm not sure how he gets away with saying that.

Before vaccines... millions used to die of smallpox.

Before clean water filtration and sanitation systems, many used to die of typhoid.

Before birth control was available..... many used to die of back alley abortions or would practice infanticide.

Before the germ theory was popular and before proper hygiene practices were put in place... we used to lose many mothers to a sepsis called "childbed fever".

Before transfusions any surgery carried a high risk of death.

Before penicillin and modern antibiotics, any surgical wound could become greatly infected with sepsis or gangrene.

I would argue that science has saved many more than the technology of war may have killed.
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#77 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 06:17 PM
 
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I would argue that science has saved many more than the technology of war may have killed.


It's just as easy to say that religion leads you to killing people because in the past many people have been killed by people who have used their religion to justify it. Nazis may have used Darwinism to justify what they did, but that does not mean "science leads you to killing people" any more than "religion leads you to killing people."

Another thing Ben Stein says in that interview (it was on TBN back in April of 2008, I think) is that scientists who are opposed to ID theories are really just scared of a God who expects us to behave morally. He equates evolutionists with people who just want a moral free-for-all. I have to question the motives he had for making this movie, in light of that. Is he really just wanting there to be "freedom of speech" in science, or is his motive to get his idea of morality in the classroom?
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#78 of 227 Old 11-21-2009, 11:13 PM
 
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I also see what Sme is saying about a lot of the stuff in the OT being empowering to women, at the same time causing us to recognise that we cant escape this sinful body. As far as mensturation and childbirth causing a woman to be unclean, there was also a time of purification, which made her clean again. All there to show us we cant escape this body of sin. This is my understanding.
That is not a Jewish or Muslim understanding of that passage, just for the record. And I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that we and our Muslim sisters are the only ones who still practice parts of that section of Leviticus. I can't speak for a Muslim understanding, but sin doesn't enter into it from a Jewish perspective, afaik.

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Again, I apologize for the digression!
No apologies necessary! I knew you weren't trying to offend - it's just something that hit me viscerally.

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Do you think science leads to killing people?
No.

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I would argue that science has saved many more than the technology of war may have killed.


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...scientists who are opposed to ID theories are really just scared of a God who expects us to behave morally. He equates evolutionists with people who just want a moral free-for-all.
I dislike that it also equates evolutionists with unreligious, amoral people. As a G-d-fearing, religious, moral person who DOES believe in evolution, it really makes me mad.

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#79 of 227 Old 11-22-2009, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I also see what Sme is saying about a lot of the stuff in the OT being empowering to women, at the same time causing us to recognise that we cant escape this sinful body. As far as mensturation and childbirth causing a woman to be unclean, there was also a time of purification, which made her clean again. All there to show us we cant escape this body of sin. This is my understanding.
That is not a Jewish or Muslim understanding of that passage, just for the record. And I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that we and our Muslim sisters are the only ones who still practice parts of that section of Leviticus. I can't speak for a Muslim understanding, but sin doesn't enter into it from a Jewish perspective, afaik.
I had a feeling that the 'sin' part wasnt part of your or the Jewish theology, I was attempting to show that I agreed with the rest of what you were saying (the part about OT Law being empowering to women), as well as trying to point out that from a christian perspective this is what we believe to be the bigger picture of the OT Law.
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#80 of 227 Old 11-24-2009, 03:47 PM
 
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There are LOTS of them. I even found a muslim site that denies evolultion. I didnt look at it in depth but they were definately ID
That would most likely be Harun Yahya or people who aspire to be Harun Yahya. A figure widely read but also largely considered to be a joke. Where Harun Yahya's anti-Darwin rhetoric goes, Illuminati conspiracy theories, Holocaust denialism, etc, etc, etc, soon follow. He's put a tremendous amount of free materials in a multitude of languages out there on the web, and does have a certain following, but the amount of free materials available does make his influence appear a bit ... inflated. And he does pretty blatantly crib from Christian ID materials to get his own works.

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That is not a Jewish or Muslim understanding of that passage, just for the record. And I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that we and our Muslim sisters are the only ones who still practice parts of that section of Leviticus. I can't speak for a Muslim understanding, but sin doesn't enter into it from a Jewish perspective, afaik.
Uhhh .... your Muslim sisters practice Leviticus? But yeah ... no original sin, no born in sin status, and certainly nothing of the kind attached to menstruation at all. That's all a very particularly Christian reading.
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#81 of 227 Old 11-24-2009, 04:00 PM
 
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Uhhh .... your Muslim sisters practice Leviticus? But yeah ... no original sin, no born in sin status, and certainly nothing of the kind attached to menstruation at all. That's all a very particularly Christian reading.
Sorry if I misspoke - I thought you guys had a kind of separation during menses as well?

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#82 of 227 Old 11-24-2009, 05:43 PM
 
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Sorry if I misspoke - I thought you guys had a kind of separation during menses as well?
Kind of a separation redux I guess. I was more poking at the stated source than the concept; not meant to be taken too seriously.
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#83 of 227 Old 11-24-2009, 05:53 PM
 
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Kind of a separation redux I guess. I was more poking at the stated source than the concept; not meant to be taken too seriously.
Oh, HA! Ok, got it. Took me a minute, though.

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#84 of 227 Old 11-24-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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Saw it. Thought it was hilarious.

There is no science in intelligent design, and it absolutely baffles my mind when people try to treat it as a scientific topic. Its a religious concept that people try to disguise as a scientific one. The movie lost me immediately when they played that card. Please, go study religion, philosophy, and the humanities. Fantastic. Teach at a religious school even: no problems there. Leave science and the scientific method to actual scientific concepts please. This documentary just reinforced my beliefs in that.

Intelligent design isn't suppressed ruthlessly by scientists, it full stop does not hold up to the scientific method, thus it is easily dismissed. Its not a conspiracy, and speaking as an anthropologist in academia, its laughable. I have plenty of other things to do, like teaching students what a theory actually is, then to join in a vast conspiracy to suppress intelligent design "academics." There are tons of religious scientists the film choose to ignore, the idea of science vs. religion is baloney.



I agree, but probably not for the same reasons. Claiming you are being persecuted for believing in intelligent design is like being outraged that a history professor taught that the Holocaust never happened and then filmed a documentary about evil historians perpetuating the myth of the Holocaust. Its that absurd of a concept. Believing in intelligent design is not just outside the generally accepted view of academia, its galaxies away. Light years. Its like applying for a job teaching about Christian beliefs in a Christian school, and then spending your entire career writing about your own atheism.
Well said.
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#85 of 227 Old 11-25-2009, 11:55 PM
 
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I agree that banning religions is a bad idea and can lead to all kinds of brutality. As a pagan, I really do get that point.

But this isn't the same as banning religion at all. Religion taught as religion isn't under siege at all, as far as I can see. What we're talking about here is teaching religion as science, and what Ben Stein is saying is that taking religion out of science will lead to genocide. He has explicitly said that in interviews, and the points he made in this movie were very much the same. He is saying that religion belongs in science classrooms because without it we get Nazi death camps.
Maybe it depends what you categorize as religion. Most religions include moral and ethical guidelines. Science without moral principles can certainly lead to atrocities. If religion (including ethics) is taught only "as religion," that is, as a theoretical subject apart from any practical application to anything, including science, death camps is where we can easily end up.

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Claiming you are being persecuted for believing in intelligent design is like being outraged that a history professor taught that the Holocaust never happened and then filmed a documentary about evil historians perpetuating the myth of the Holocaust. Its that absurd of a concept.
I think that is overstating it. There is clear evidence the Holocaust happened. Much more evidence than there is for one theory or another about the origins of life. Believing that the existence of the universe or the development of life on earth requires an intelligent force is no more outrageous than believing it appeared out of nowhere, created itself, or any other theory. They are all, at this stage of knowledge, just philosophical speculations. The only reason ID is considered crazier than any other is because it is associated with the belief in God.
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#86 of 227 Old 11-26-2009, 11:28 AM
 
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Maybe it depends what you categorize as religion. Most religions include moral and ethical guidelines. Science without moral principles can certainly lead to atrocities. If religion (including ethics) is taught only "as religion," that is, as a theoretical subject apart from any practical application to anything, including science, death camps is where we can easily end up.
Religion is not the only source of moral and ethical guidelines, and it is quite possible to keep religion out of science and still have moral and ethical guidelines which prevent atrocities such as Nazi death camps. To imply that ethics is only found in religion is way off base, as many atheists and agnostics could tell you. Ethics is a standard subject taught in science classrooms already, or at least I thought it was.

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I think that is overstating it. There is clear evidence the Holocaust happened. Much more evidence than there is for one theory or another about the origins of life. Believing that the existence of the universe or the development of life on earth requires an intelligent force is no more outrageous than believing it appeared out of nowhere, created itself, or any other theory. They are all, at this stage of knowledge, just philosophical speculations. The only reason ID is considered crazier than any other is because it is associated with the belief in God.
The big problem with ID theory is that it is untestable, and something untestable is by definition not scientific, and if the theory is beyond the scope of science then why is it portraying itself as science?

This is an interesting take on the ID movement which I found quite enlightening.
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#87 of 227 Old 11-27-2009, 03:16 PM
 
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Religion is not the only source of moral and ethical guidelines, and it is quite possible to keep religion out of science and still have moral and ethical guidelines which prevent atrocities such as Nazi death camps. To imply that ethics is only found in religion is way off base, as many atheists and agnostics could tell you. Ethics is a standard subject taught in science classrooms already, or at least I thought it was.


There is actually a lot of scientific study of ethics, and a plethora of theories about how it might have evolved without a god figure involved and how to codify it. Taking God out of the equation does not necessarily leave one with a free-for-all of "I say it's right so it's right". If ethics evolved as part of our human identity, then it transcends any one individual identity. In other words, an individual can say that they think killing babies is good, but they will be roundly condemned by the overwhelming majority of humans because we have evolved to protect our offspring, it's inherent in us to be disgusted by such an opinion.
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#88 of 227 Old 11-27-2009, 07:06 PM
 
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There is actually a lot of scientific study of ethics, and a plethora of theories about how it might have evolved without a god figure involved and how to codify it.
That is not ethics, it is a way of deconstructing ethics.
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Taking God out of the equation does not necessarily leave one with a free-for-all of "I say it's right so it's right". If ethics evolved as part of our human identity, then it transcends any one individual identity. In other words, an individual can say that they think killing babies is good, but they will be roundly condemned by the overwhelming majority of humans because we have evolved to protect our offspring, it's inherent in us to be disgusted by such an opinion.
One reason the Holocaust was done with the support of so many, is that it was given a scientific basis. The majority accepted that the actions of the Nazis would benefit mankind, and set aside their conventional ethics for the sake of a supposedly more rational approach. Opposition to such a concept may be inherent, but it can be argued away where science is placed above morality.
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#89 of 227 Old 11-27-2009, 07:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oddeebean
Saw it. Thought it was hilarious.

There is no science in intelligent design, and it absolutely baffles my mind when people try to treat it as a scientific topic. Its a religious concept that people try to disguise as a scientific one. The movie lost me immediately when they played that card. Please, go study religion, philosophy, and the humanities. Fantastic. Teach at a religious school even: no problems there. Leave science and the scientific method to actual scientific concepts please. This documentary just reinforced my beliefs in that.

Intelligent design isn't suppressed ruthlessly by scientists, it full stop does not hold up to the scientific method, thus it is easily dismissed. Its not a conspiracy, and speaking as an anthropologist in academia, its laughable. I have plenty of other things to do, like teaching students what a theory actually is, then to join in a vast conspiracy to suppress intelligent design "academics." There are tons of religious scientists the film choose to ignore, the idea of science vs. religion is baloney.



I agree, but probably not for the same reasons. Claiming you are being persecuted for believing in intelligent design is like being outraged that a history professor taught that the Holocaust never happened and then filmed a documentary about evil historians perpetuating the myth of the Holocaust. Its that absurd of a concept. Believing in intelligent design is not just outside the generally accepted view of academia, its galaxies away. Light years. Its like applying for a job teaching about Christian beliefs in a Christian school, and then spending your entire career writing about your own atheism.
Well said. I haven't seen the 'documentary', but I've read about it and spent time at expelledexposed.com. I've just finished reading a now-slightly-outdated book called "The Republican War on Science", and this is exactly what the book is aimed at exposing....a religious right attempt to discredit mainstream science by calling for 'real science' and equal air-time for religious theories that are couched in scientific terms. I consider myself a Christian, but I also believe that God gave us minds to puzzle out the glories of our world, and there's simply no question that intelligent design is a myth (one tha may help us to understand our being from a theological point of view), evolution is fact. I do not believe that scientists are 'witch-hunted' for espousing differing opinions, but they are certainly and rightly criticized by the process of peer-review when they attempt to showcase mythology as science.

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#90 of 227 Old 11-27-2009, 07:45 PM
 
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That is not ethics, it is a way of deconstructing ethics.
Er... not sure I understand. Naturally scientists aren't going to exhort people to live morally in the same way religious leaders do -- it's not their place -- but they are very concerned with ethics nonetheless.

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One reason the Holocaust was done with the support of so many, is that it was given a scientific basis. The majority accepted that the actions of the Nazis would benefit mankind, and set aside their conventional ethics for the sake of a supposedly more rational approach. Opposition to such a concept may be inherent, but it can be argued away where science is placed above morality.
But, see, I could say the same thing about [pick the religious war of your choice]. I could say that adherents of X religion put aside their conventional ethics and slaughtered adherents of Y religion because they believed God ordered them to do so. I could say their inherent opposition to such atrocities was argued away because their religion was placed above morality.
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