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#1 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok ladies I have a couple of questions. and these are the types of questions that here on MDC tend to start wars between the less tolerant and open minded of us here so before I start lets all take a

::::: DEEP BREATH :::::::


ok.....I'm not sure where to start so I'm blurp them out. (is blurp I word?)

My husband and I are doing our sabbath on Friday/Saturday (I could go into detail as to why, but it's not important on this post so I shan't yet)

When starting this I began to look up Shabbat for ideas and found that a lot of Jewish people feel that nobody but Jews should observe Sabbath because it was not mandated for anyone but the Jews. I also have come across this same mindset for many other things/traditions/customs etc. I just don't exactly get it.

If God is the same God for all... why would not the rest of His creation desire to know and worship Him? is there a non-jewish and non-christian way this would be done? am I totally missing the entire point here? b/c I'm confused.

also about Sabbath - we are told that God rested on the 7th day. this is why many people (even non-jews) recognize this day. is it that we should not celebrate at all? or just not in the way the jews were told?

and I guess this is my biggest and most prevailing question that I don't quite know how to word...

Are non-jews "allowed" a relationship with God? why/how? if it's not in the jewish way, what way?

I would so appreciate any sincere answers to this. I'm a headcovering religious Christian (though albeit far from the norm) and I'm not aiming to be Jewish, nor rip off anyone's rightful heritage. but I do wish to pursue a relationship with God, honoring Him and get along with others. but I feel kinda put in a box. ykwim? I certainly don't feel I need any human's permission to pursue the God of the universe, but i certainly would like to know how others see it.

someone please help me understand...

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#2 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 08:44 AM
 
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As a Messianic believer this how I look at sabbath.

OK Jesus/Yeshua is our rest. So we walk with Him in that rest. You can rest anyday of the week. He helps us to rest in the middle of the "storms of life".

The law is based on you(the people) DO this and I (GOD) this that!

We under the blood of Jesus are free from the law. He (Jesus) died once and for all. We (people) believe and are saved. So we can have a relationship with Him.
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#3 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok... so then what does that mean? no sabbaths at all? no celebrations? I mean it sorts seems like you are saying because Jesus came we no longer need to celebrate. (but did not Jesus instruct us on communion?)

furthermore something I'm confused about - the traditions and celebrations and "holy days" don't just help us "fulfill" the law, but they help us remember. they help us teach our kids and become aquainted with our history.

I guess that's the part that's throwing me off as far as from the Christians aspect. Granted I realize a jew isn't going to see his history as my history - but I suppose that's for a different discussion.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#4 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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btw, thanks for replying. it gives me something to think over...

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#5 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 10:23 AM
 
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I'm sorry that I'm not more clear. I really do not like the internet. I feel talk in person is much better. But here I go....

No celebrate Jesus. We need to teach our children and other about Jesus. Holiday/celebrations are great ways to come together to witness God's love for us. And a great way to be with family and friends. Also going church/bible studies/just hanging out with other believes are ways to .

All of the o/t holidays are pictures of Messiah Jesus. They are there to show His coming(first&second). They are wonderful.

We are children of a great God that wants to be our friend. He does not want us to sit around and not be happy with Him.So celebrate have a big party! We are children of a wonderful Father & Son Who love us.

Your ? asked about sabbath...I told you about what I think about that.
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#6 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 10:45 AM
 
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HennyPenny-If you want I have somethings I could send you. So if you want PM I will snail mail you some stuff
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#7 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 01:35 PM
 
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As a Jew, this is my understanding. G-d gave us obligations and rituals that He didn't give the other nations. Many Jews believe that blessings such as Shabbat are our reward for keeping our additional obligations, and that those who are not obligated to, say, keep kosher or refrain from cooking on Shabbat are not entitled to the special relationship with G-d that comes with the fulfillment of those obligations.

Personally, I disagree, and many of the Rabbis did too. If you want to observe the Sabbath in your way, you are more than welcome to do so, and most modern Jews would agree. It doesn't take anything away from our celebration of the day if you join us. (And heck, most of us aren't perfect in our own observation; here I am on the computer on Saturday morning.) I find a lot of beauty and meaning in Shabbat, and I think in this day and age, it's a beautiful thing for any family to take one day a week to spend with their faith and each other.
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#8 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 01:56 PM
 
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I know that some of the discomfort for Jews when Christians decide to follow Jewish custom and ritual is from the intent of the Christians.

Particularly, there is a deep discomfort when Christians hold Passover seders in an attempt to experience the Last Supper. (I am not a Biblical scholar, but my understanding is that there is evidence that the Last Supper was NOT a Passover seder).

Personally, I think that everyone should follow their path to G-d, and I don't have a problem with Christians observing the Sabbath. the components of Shabbat (prayer, candles, rest, reading/reflecting on the Bible, family and a nice meal) are universal, right? I would probably think it was a little weird if you began using all of the Jewish-specific prayers, or recited Hebrew prayers, or ate "Jewish" foods but, it's no skin off my nose if that's how it makes sense to you. I would wonder why Christian prayers, and your own family food weren't "enough" for you, but that's up to you to determine.

I'm more upset by the fact that one of our state newspapers always goes to the Messianic congregation for their coverage of the Jewish holidays, rather than talking to any of the members of the 7 synagogues in that city. It gives non-Jews a very limited exposure/understanding of Judaism to only talk to members of a Messianic congregation.
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#9 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 03:35 PM
 
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HennyPenny, this is such a good question for christians to ask, imho. Ive sort of explored it a little myself via prayer and as much study as I can. What Ive come up with is the fact that for me, coming to Christ from a non-jewish heritage there is no way I can fully understand all of the jewish customs, hoildays, celebrations and their signifigance as far as Nazsmum explained it, those ot traditions being a shadow of Jesus Christ. I came to Christ outside the fold so they dont have the same meaning to me, as much as I want to understand them better and feel Im on the path to doing so, I am coming to it sort of backwards and taking the long way to understanding. Im not willing to take anyone's word for any of this, I am taking my time seeking God Himself about it all.
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#10 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 03:53 PM
 
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I hope this won't come out snarky, but then again, there are folks here who think *everything* I say is snarky, so ...


I don't think anyone (Jewish) cares if anyone else does whatever the heck they want on "the Sabbath." You want to celebrate it? Fine, enjoy. You want to not celebrate it? Fine, enjoy.

That said, here's the next part ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by spedteacher30 View Post
I know that some of the discomfort for Jews when Christians decide to follow Jewish custom and ritual is from the intent of the Christians.

Precisely.


Particularly, there is a deep discomfort that so many Christians use Jewish rituals and practices deceptively, to convert Jews. To do the whole "See? You can only be a complete and real and true Jew if (ח"וח) you believe in Jesus."


That is a very well used tactic. You can find missionary websites that advocate precisely that, learning about Jewish customs and language and using it to deceive Jews, to get past their possible discomfort when approached by missionaries.




Quote:
Originally Posted by spedteacher30 View Post
Personally, I think that everyone should follow their path to G-d

And that is precisely Judaism's view. Judaism does not (as opposed to both Christianity and Islam) say that it is the only way to G!d or that everyone must someday become Jewish or that when the Messiah comes everyone will be Jewish. Not at all. Judaism teaches that every people has their own way to G!d.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spedteacher30 View Post
I'm more upset by the fact that one of our state newspapers always goes to the Messianic congregation for their coverage of the Jewish holidays, rather than talking to any of the members of the 7 synagogues in that city. It gives non-Jews a very limited exposure/understanding of Judaism to only talk to members of a Messianic congregation.
I find that disturbing as well. Because Messianic believers are specifically Christians, as they believe in Jesus as the messiah. So they're not getting a Jewish understanding of Judaism at all. Sounds to me that that newspaper has a particular agenda (read: a Christian one) that would not be helped if they talked to Jews about Jewish events.
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#11 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think you're being snarky at all. you're totally answering my question and i appreciate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post

Particularly, there is a deep discomfort that so many Christians use Jewish rituals and practices deceptively, to convert Jews. To do the whole "See? You can only be a complete and real and true Jew if (ח"וח) you believe in Jesus."


That is a very well used tactic. You can find missionary websites that advocate precisely that, learning about Jewish customs and language and using it to deceive Jews, to get past their possible discomfort when approached by missionaries.
ok this I totally understand! for the record, i do not feel this way whatsoever. but i do not deny i know people who hold this belief. I don't agree with it whatsoever so I can't defend it.

not that is matters to anyone - but how i feel is much different. you need not agree with me, but this is my best way to explain how i feel.

I worship the same God as the Jews. but i am not Jewish. it is not my ethnicity nor my religion or , but it is a part of my spiritual history. I am not Jewish so I am not "choosen" in that way. I believe Jesus was the Messiah of the world, but I do not believe he came to condemn all non-believers to some Christians ideal of what Hell is or is not. (I don't think that we actually know much about the afterlife - which most Christians do claim to know - which I think is where a lot of the "turn a jew into a christian" thing plays in...)

I don't believe in trying to "save" anyone. I believe in trying to seek God and leading a life that is honoring to Him as best as I can. everyone is going to come to God in a unique way because we are different beings.

Christians like myself would use Hebrew words, phrases and such because God revealed himself first to the Jews - you were blessed by this revelation in a way none of us others have been. so we turn to your readings, prayers and even some traditions to learn from it. it's not to try and steal it from you, but to learn from it. to better understand God. I believe he relates o the jewish nation in a way that's different than how he relates to others, but i feel we can learn much through the Jewish nation. it is (whether one agree on the truth of it or not) the heritage of the Christian religion. it's where it started.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#12 of 16 Old 12-06-2009, 06:20 AM
 
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I'm sure this isn't how everyone feels about it, just my own opinion. (and here I am talking about shabbat for christians again, when I said I'd go to bed a half hour ago... oops lol )

I like it when christians are interested in shabbat, and other jewish traditions and mitzvot, if they do it in a respectful way. Why? For the large part because I feel that they are aknowledging (gosh why can I never spell that word lol) their roots, and their history, in a respectful way, rather than denying them. I feel that a lot of christians like to forget that judaism is the root of christianity, and instead distance themselves from it, in a way that negatively impacts their relations with the religion, and with jews. (If you (not you personally, any person) recognize that your traditions came in part from our traditions, and your messiah followed our laws, I feel it breeds an innate respect. If you think about the fact that Jesus, whomever or whatever you feel he is/was, was Jewish, its hard to then be anti-semetic.) Another part of it is because personally, I feel very strongly about learning about other religions, specifically learning about the parts of their religion that.... appeal to you. That's not quite the right word, but to learn with understanding. To learn in a way that says, oh, I see the spirituality, the power in that. I think it fosters greater respect. I know after doing such learning myself, I find myself understanding and respecting people who practice those religions much more.

Therefore, in my book, if you celebrate shabbat because it further's your relationship with G-d, or you feel that G-d commanded you as well as jews, then by all means, celebrate shabbat. If you want to celebrate/teach about shabbat for some reason affecting other people, its probably not a good reason. If it is for you and the divine, the its just as good a reason for you as for me as a jew.

A teacher I am studying said something that made a great deal of sense to me. I don't remember the specific phrase, but the phrase in hebrew which is translated as "The chosen people", more closely means chosen people, or A chosen people. Were it to be more literally "The chosen people" it would be in hebrew ha (whatever the word in hebrew was that I couldn't transliterate in my notes fast enough and so didn't write down and google isn't finding for me).

And now, I'm off to bed as I should have been hours ago. sleep lady signing off. lol

Caroline, partner to J, post partum doula, kitchen manager, aspiring midwife, soon to be nursing student, mama to my furbaby, someday a mama to not so furry munchkins, G-d willing
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#13 of 16 Old 12-06-2009, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spedteacher30 View Post
I'm more upset by the fact that one of our state newspapers always goes to the Messianic congregation for their coverage of the Jewish holidays, rather than talking to any of the members of the 7 synagogues in that city. It gives non-Jews a very limited exposure/understanding of Judaism to only talk to members of a Messianic congregation.
I also find this disturbing.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#14 of 16 Old 12-08-2009, 03:27 AM
 
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Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#15 of 16 Old 12-14-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
I hope this won't come out snarky, but then
Precisely.


Particularly, there is a deep discomfort that so many Christians use Jewish rituals and practices deceptively, to convert Jews. To do the whole "See? You can only be a complete and real and true Jew if (ח"וח) you believe in Jesus."


That is a very well used tactic. You can find missionary websites that advocate precisely that, learning about Jewish customs and language and using it to deceive Jews, to get past their possible discomfort when approached by missionaries.
I totally agree. It's a combination of this and the PP sentiments about the "special relationship" Jews believe they have with their G-d. When Jews talk about being the "Chosen People" what they're talking about is having been "chosen" to take on a different way of serving G-d then the rest of the world. I don't know if it includes the fact that we celebrate on Friday-Saturday instead of Sunday, but I know that it includes the WAY that we celebrate. Unlike non-Jews, the Sabbath is not just for going to church/synagogue. We're called upon to take on certain laws and restrictions in order to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy."

I think as a Jew, if a friend came to me and said that they wanted to start keeping the Sabbath on the Jewish schedule of Friday to Saturday I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it, but I'd definitely have questions. Why the Sabbath? Why not the dietary restrictions? Why not the marital restrictions?

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#16 of 16 Old 12-15-2009, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok lots to think about. I have stuff I wanna say if only I could find more than 10 minutes ot type it all out!

thanks to everyone who replied. I really appreicate it, even if we don't all agree. it's always good to see and consider other people's prespective.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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