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#61 of 220 Old 12-29-2009, 07:03 PM
 
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I don't really know how much more info I need on the Church's teachings and NFP - I understand them. I don't feel that the Church needs to change her stance on the issues either, I just know that they aren't going to work for my marriage. Like I have said before right or wrong the problem is that I cannot conform to these teachings. I could just turn my head to the issue and take the advice I got upon my initial RCIA inquiry, (which was that using bc aside from NFP was ok as long as it was done consciously) or continue with our current method of contracepting which physically does fall on dh to use a condom or withdrawal when I tell him that I am fertile and use him as the sole excuse even though I agree with him and just move forward but I feel that would be wrong.

I don't mean any of this in a rude way but I am just looking for some direction on what to do here. Since the majority of the women in the Church use ABC I know that I can't be alone. I need to get in to see my priest.

Thank you!
Well, I think the question I would ask is - if you knew for sure that the CC teaching was correct, would you follow it? Is it really a matter of not agreeing with it, or is it a matter of not wanting to follow it? And if the latter, what does that mean?

It's true that lots of Catholic couples use ABC, don't go to confession, and still partake of the Eucharist. If they don't know any better, than they are suffering from bad teaching, and must live in a very isolated place. If they think that it isn't important, then their claims to be Catholic, which is a creedal religion, are a bit suspect. And if they know that it isn't right, then they are taking the Body and Blood while knowingly in a state of mortal sin - not good.

FWIW - some people do remain Catholic and ignore the teaching on this (or other things). They attend Mass, but do not partake of the Body and Blood.

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#62 of 220 Old 12-29-2009, 10:21 PM
 
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One important thing to realize is that NFP is profoundly respectful of women's bodies and woman centric. It is also more successful than condoms, P&P and FAM by anyone's estimation.

Our society says that it is the man's choice when we will engage in marital relations, and being a good wife involves making ourselves available. But that is not the case! NFP is definitely a marriage building art, and IMO teaches a husband respect for his wife's body, fertility, and cyclical sexuality.
i agree w/ this. i feel like it helps us foster a mutual respect and learn to cherish each other and put the other's needs before our own. We've had a great experience with nfp and would never go any other way.

Keep praying and pray for your husband. Maybe someday God will open his heart! That happened with a friend of mine. She really wanted to do nfp and her dh was totally against it. After a couple of years, he changed his mind and now they are successfully using nfp.

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#63 of 220 Old 01-01-2010, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Happy New Year! I just wanted to post a small update and ask a couple of questions. I really prayed to the Lord about this issue and I will continue to pray about this. I was also given a copy of The Art of Natural Family Planning by the Kippley's which I have started reading. I have decided to start charting my cycles because it seems like a great thing to know how to do and if we decide to use NFP then we'll be ready.

I'm reading the section where it talks about the risks of all ABC methods. I've learned a few things that I didn't know about them and they are worse than I thought. However the only forms of ABC that I am willing to use are male condoms and withdrawal and they still don't seem all that bad to me. I am under the impression that the Sin of Onan was more than he didn't do what the Lord wanted him to do and not so much that he used withdrawal. If I am wrong on that one please correct me! I would love to hear your views on why these two forms of ABC are just as bad as the others. I'm really trying to get the full perspective here and sometimes it is helpful to hear from other people than just to read it in a book. Also, I have my own misgivings about them too so it's not that I love condoms and withdrawal it's just that they have been working for us for years and right now the alternative seems unattainable.

Thanks for helping me out on this journey of mine! This thread has really helped me out a lot.
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#64 of 220 Old 01-01-2010, 03:46 PM
 
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I am under the impression that the Sin of Onan was more than he didn't do what the Lord wanted him to do and not so much that he used withdrawal. If I am wrong on that one please correct me! I would love to hear your views on why these two forms of ABC are just as bad as the others. I'm really trying to get the full perspective here and sometimes it is helpful to hear from other people than just to read it in a book. Also, I have my own misgivings about them too so it's not that I love condoms and withdrawal it's just that they have been working for us for years and right now the alternative seems unattainable.

Thanks for helping me out on this journey of mine! This thread has really helped me out a lot.

OK, so let's talk about Onan. At that period in time, the laws of inheiritance were through the male bloodline. If a husband died without an heir, his wife had 2 options: Go back to her father's household and try to find a new hubby, brininging nothing with her or produce an heir to inherit her hubby's belongings. The heir would be fathered by her husband's brother, but would be considered her husband's child.

Onan was only allowed to DTD, in order to produce an heir for his brother. His sin was in disobeying G-d and taking his brother's wife for his own sexual pleasure. By withdrawing, he was ensuring a continued sexual relationship, because she would not conceive. That is why HE was punished.

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#65 of 220 Old 01-01-2010, 11:57 PM
 
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First of all, if you practice the complementary and recommended Ecological Breastfeeding, even if you totally ignored your temperature and mucus signs, you would never have 20 children in 20 years, it is physically completely impossible. Yes, some women get their cycles back early despite faithfully practicing this method, but there is considerable evidence that they do not conceive until later due to factors like shortened luteal phase.
I have to address this because it is simply not true. I am a shining example of demand breastfeeding of my children - with my DD it was every two hours around the clock for about 15 months before she slowed down - and I still got my cycle back at 6 weeks with her and experienced a chemical pregnancy at 3 months PP. At the time I was not Catholic and chose to have an IUD inserted. 8 days after having the IUD out I ovulated and conceived my DS. I had another IUD inserted shortly after his birth. I became Catholic during Easter this year and I had my IUD removed during RCIA and began practicing NFP with my husband's reluctant consent. 3 months later I was unexpectedly pregnant, I accept that there was user error but I was still demand breastfeeding my DS often and with him I had gotten my cycle back at 4 months PP. I have conceived all three children with a 10 day LP, which is on the short side. My point is, you can be EXTREMELY fertile even while practicing demand breastfeeding and having a short LP.

To the OP, I totally understand where you are at. My husband is not Catholic and is really stressed about the teachings regarding sexual intercourse in marriage and artificial birth control. I've only scanned most of the posts in this thread but ABC isn't the only issue in regards to sexual unity in marriage - there are many aspects of sexual expression that are lumped together in the "no-no" category. The bottom line is that the Church teaches that sexual intercourse's main function is to be life supporting and that every single sexual act must be open to life. It is a bonus that sexual intercourse is pleasurable and can be an emotionally uniting experience for married couples. Everything is always tied back into being open and supportive of the creation of new human life - so if you are participating in a sexual act with your husband that couldn't lead to procreation than it is considered illicit. Any sexual expression alone or with a partner outside of marriage is prohibited.

Now, I know this all is very stressful for new converts - it is still extremely stressful for me as I am getting ready to deliver and my DH and I cannot come to terms on what we are going to do after I have this baby. He is certain he wants no more children and I obviously cannot contracept or support his doing so. It is hard - and my non-religious husband isn't going to be gung ho about sitting down with a priest and being told what he is and isn't allowed to do sexually with his own wife, especially considering that the rules changed in a big way quite suddenly from what we had agreed upon in the past and those new rules can be extremely life altering for him. We are at a point in which he is ready to have a vasectomy because he just doesn't want the discussion anymore. And in my weaker moments it just seems like the easy, obvious solution because I don't want to argue about it anymore. It's hard all the way around.

I respect the Church's teachings even if some of them are hard to accept. I do understand and appreciate the complexity of the theology surrounding the human body and sexuality that the Church has given to its members. I do agree that our world has grown dimmer and more hopeless since the advent of mass ABC and the destruction of respect for the creation of life that sexual intercourse can bring to a couple. We want all the pleasure and none of the responsibility - artificial birth control is just one small slice of a very large pie in which this fairly modern concept is applied in our lives. And instead of deciding to take responsibility we just find other more appalling ways to deal with our lack of self-control - mass and widespread abortion is obviously a consequence of the very modern belief that pregnancy is inconvenient and easily dealt with if it isn't something greatly desired and planned for. When ABC fails instead of accepting responsibility for participation in the act in which conception can occur, the life that has been created is just gotten rid of.

When people compare NFP to artificial birth control they are missing the point of it all. NFP demands that couples be aware of the life bringing potential of sexual intercourse and if they cannot (for hopefully a grave reason) be open to welcoming a child then they just do not engage in sex together during the suspected fertile period. That is a very different thing from knowing you are fertile, not wanting to be responsible for the natural consequence of that fertility and just strapping on a condom and having fun anyway. It requires a lot of self control on the part of both partners, excellent communication and a willing heart. And as I know very well, when your partner is lacking in support of it it can cause serious stress within the marriage.

I have no idea what we are going to do either, just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone in what you are experiencing in your marriage. It is hard to be a loving, supportive and committed partner in marriage and still be submissive to the Church's teaching when your husband is not Catholic. It feels almost like having to choose allegiance to one or the other.

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#66 of 220 Old 01-02-2010, 01:19 AM
 
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Can someone please show me where Jesus said no ABC? Not men later in history, but Jesus.
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#67 of 220 Old 01-02-2010, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow Charbeau you put it perfectly! I do sometimes feel like I am having to choose allegiance between my dh and the Church. I also relate and agree with everything else you said too.

I am going to start really learning NFP and hopefully see where that leads me. But as I'm sure you know that even if I change my mind my dh will probably not. I just can't stand to have one more issue with my conversion come between us! I feel that I would be pushing the envelope if I bring anymore on him. But I can say that my dh and I have learned that anytime we have sex we have to be prepared to accept the possibility of creating new life since that is the primary purpose of sex even if we are using a condom or withdrawal. So that's a move in the right direction.

And thank you so much for being so open about all the taboo stuff, it is nice to hear it in real terms of what is ok and what is not!

Best wishes with the coming baby and your situation.
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#68 of 220 Old 01-02-2010, 01:40 AM
 
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Can someone please show me where Jesus said no ABC? Not men later in history, but Jesus.
Here we go again.

Jesus also never directly referred to the Trinity yet most mainline Christians believe in it. Catholics accept the Tradition of the Church and theology that stems from the teachings from the Bible but the Bible isn't our sole authority as it is for many Protestants. As I explained in my previous post, ABC is encompassed in a MUCH larger theology of human sexuality in the Catholic Church and is only one aspect of it. All of the theology of the human body and human sexuality is tied in with the dogmas on life issues within the CC.

With that said, almost ALL Christian denominations, even the Protestant reformers, were opposed to birth control and abortion. The acceptance of ABC by a large portion of Christians is very recent in the 2000 year history of Christianity.

ETA: I see that this thread is in Spirituality, not RS, so I'm not certain if this line of discussion is OK in this forum?!

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#69 of 220 Old 01-02-2010, 02:01 AM
 
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Springmama - This article is pretty thorough and interesting. My DH read it and it helped him agree to try NFP last spring.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/se0002.html

(I should add that there are a few eyebrow-raising-not-in-a-good-way comments in the article but the gist is worth a read).

And another good read:

http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/...elf-image.html

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#70 of 220 Old 01-04-2010, 08:53 PM
 
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Moving to Religious Studies...

Please note that Spirituality is a "support only" forum that works within the following guideline:

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The Spirituality board is a forum of support, respectful requests of information and sharing of faith and practice. To uphold this purpose the board will not host discussions of debate or criticism. Disagreements about spiritual issues should be set aside out of respect for the diversity and varying interpretations and beliefs that we hold as a community.

While we will not restrict discussions to persons of the faith being discussed we will be active in discouraging an individual from posting for the purpose of disagreement, with no interest in practicing the faith or belief in discussion, or to prove a faith or a belief to be wrong, misguided, or not based on fact. Proselytizing, to convert to a faith or from one, will not be permitted. Controversial subjects of discussion related to spiritual and religious beliefs and origins can be found elsewhere on the internet and we invite you to seek out other sites for that purpose.
Religious Studies is a better forum for discussing different interpretations or applications of religious doctrines. And the Fertility forum is the best place to discuss the practicalities and success rates of different techniques. If you're ever uncertain about where a thread belongs, please feel free to contact a moderator.

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#71 of 220 Old 01-06-2010, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am so glad that this thread was moved! I apologize for posting it in the wrong forum.

All of you mamas have helped me so much. Thank you for your perspectives, support and prayers. I have been praying about this and reading a lot about it too. I feel that underneath it all I do understand and accept the Church's teachings but I am having a hard time applying that to my life at this time mostly because of my marriage. The first time I talked about this with dh I thought I was ready to embrace NFP but by the end of the conversation I was in agreement with him about how crazy NFP would be for out lives. I'm afraid to even bring this up with him again because he won't understand how I could have possibly had a change of heart (he really doesn't understand the power of prayer) in just a couple of weeks. If I were married to a Catholic this probably wouldn't be such an issue for me.

For now I am learning NFP - I just got my thermometer and signed up for Fertility Friend and joined the CTA thread in Family Planning. I will get the courage to bring it up to dh soon but for now I think I should focus on learning more to have a better defense of NFP.

I know that ultimately I need to be obedient to this teaching. I am being called to be in full communion with the Church but I guess I'm just taking a bit of a windy road to get there!
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#72 of 220 Old 01-06-2010, 03:59 PM
 
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I'll be praying for you, springmama.

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#73 of 220 Old 01-06-2010, 05:11 PM
 
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If your husband chooses to contracept it is not your sin, and you would not be obligated to refuse to have relations with him because of it.

You sound overwhelmed. *hug*
thats a good point. My xh got a vas and it broke my heart but at least I had the peace that this was not my sin. it was his. if your husband withdraaws or wears a condom what can you do? and if you are practicing NFP he will know for sure some times where he can skip these....yeehaw!!

Explore all your birth control, child spacing options and talk them over with your preist. clearly hormonal birth control cannot be justified since it is an abortificient. there is just no way around that but your preist may be able to give his blessing for a barrier method because of your situation. and when used with NFP barrier methods can be more effective than alone. and no one has to die.

I forget what it is called in the Catholic church but I know priests can make excpetions for a lesser evil when the need arises. it is clear you are not just looking for an easy way out. converting and having an unbelieving husband is a tough circumstance. perhaps you can reach a middle ground under your priests guidence while you pray for your husbands heart to be softened by God.

ETA - Ya know, it is good to learn NFP even if you never intend to use it to prevent a pregnancy. you learn so much about your body. would your husband consider a trial period using a back up barrier method? just to see how it really plays out?

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#74 of 220 Old 01-06-2010, 07:11 PM
 
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I know it is no longer pursuant to this forum, but clearing up that 'demand breastfeeding' is NOT 'ecological breastfeeding' as defined by 'Ecological Breastfeeding and Natural Childspacing'. The difference is often missed and completely crucial.
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#75 of 220 Old 01-06-2010, 09:40 PM
 
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I'm not Catholic but I am interested in Catholicism.
I hope I'm not hiijacking the thread but I don't understand how NFP, which is a method of birth control, is permissible but other forms of birth control (to my limited understanding) are not.
The intention behind NFP is to prevent conception so why is it okay while a condom wouldn't be? It seems (ok, I'm totally ignorant here) that NFP is a loophole.
Just curious....

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#76 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 02:51 AM
 
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I hope I'm not hiijacking the thread but I don't understand how NFP, which is a method of birth control, is permissible but other forms of birth control (to my limited understanding) are not.
The intention behind NFP is to prevent conception so why is it okay while a condom wouldn't be? It seems (ok, I'm totally ignorant here) that NFP is a loophole.
This is something I also have trouble understanding. I can see rejecting abortifacient methods, of course, but that is a separate question. Considering the time and trouble involved in NFP, for the express purpose of avoiding conception if possible, how can it be considered "being open to the possibility of conception" while using a condom is not? Both methods have the same aim of preventing pregnancy.

The question gets more confusing to me in light of the RC restrictions on marital relations:
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...there are many aspects of sexual expression that are lumped together in the "no-no" category... Everything is always tied back into being open and supportive of the creation of new human life - so if you are participating in a sexual act with your husband that couldn't lead to procreation than it is considered illicit.
Can you (general you) see why this might seem odd? Married couples can only engage in sex which is likely to produce a pregnancy; but they may do so at times chosen to reduce the chance of pregnancy.

The very strict limitations on allowable sex acts also seems to contradict one of the purposes of marriage, which is to allow a legitimate sexual "outlet" - because it is "better to marry than to burn" and so forth - but I suppose that is a different topic.
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#77 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 03:05 AM
 
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Can you (general you) see why this might seem odd? Married couples can only engage in sex which is likely to produce a pregnancy; but they may do so at times chosen to reduce the chance of pregnancy.

The very strict limitations on allowable sex acts also seems to contradict one of the purposes of marriage, which is to allow a legitimate sexual "outlet" - because it is "better to marry than to burn" and so forth - but I suppose that is a different topic.
Heh.. of course. This is the reason many Catholics object to the "nfp-lifestyle" that is sort of a post-VII perversion of the reasons NFP in any form became allowable. Turn it on/turn it off fertility doesn't go along with the rest of the teachings. NFP to avoid really is only permissible in serious circumstances, and as such allows the couple to receive the unitive benefits of sex, without the procreative. It is obviously not "open to life" except in the most general sense, but you could have the same attitude with other barrier methods in that you would accept and not abort an "accidental" pregnancy. I think the real permission for NFP-to-avoid vs. barrier has a lot more to do with working with God's natural design as well as not frustrating the marriage act with a barrier between the couple (who is supposed to be uniting even if the act will not make a baby) when things are bad enough to avoid conception. In the same vein, ABC of any kind is viewed as a slippery slope.

ETA: Also about allowable sex acts. The CC does not have that particular view of the purpose of marriage & sex as an outlet for sexual drive. I believe the Orthodox Church views this as one of 4 purposes of marriage, CC only has 3. We're all about chastity, even in marriage

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#78 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 04:27 AM
 
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i hope you find your path!

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Married couples can only engage in sex which is likely to produce a pregnancy; but they may do so at times chosen to reduce the chance of pregnancy.
But this is not the teaching at all.... These things are difficult to understand, until one goes deeper and learns the theology of it all... truly learns...

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#80 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 10:14 AM
 
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I think the "sex acts must be open to life" thing leads to a lot of confusion, and should be used only carefully. It isn't really a reason for allowing NFP - it is more of an effect, but it is actually in play even when a couple is using ABC.

The reason is this. Sex leads to procreation. No matter what you do, or if you are 90 years old, or whatever, there are no guarentees. That is the fact of the matter. It's a biological fact, and biological facts are always theological facts too. People though have always wanted to have sex without procreating, just like we want to eat lots of cake without getting fat (or maybe that is just me...?)

But it is very easy to begin to forget this when we find ways to "get around" nature. We can use a vomitorium, or diet pills, or ABC. THe CC, and until recently most Christian groups, have always frowned on these things for the same reasons they do now. But it was also predicted back when the first doors to ABC were being opened that it would begin to affect individuals and societies understanding of the nature of sex, and of being "open to life" as well, which has proved to be the case.

That is, the dominant Western understanding of sex now is not at all that sex is tied to procreation. We all know that to procreate we normally need sex, but that is often as far as it seems to go. Sex is most often understood as a thing that stands alone, which we all "need", which everyone (or all married couples which is actually more illogical) have a "right" to. OTOH it is also understood that we have a "right" to control our fertility. Taken together, these ideas tend to lead to this mental separation of sexuality and babies, so you get to a point where things like breastfeeding or even birth are seen as "unsexy" or breasts are primarily a sexual organ, or larger families are seen as immoral and a sign of lack of self-control.

The reasons for NFP being, sometimes, acceptable, while ABC is not, are somewhat different. It has never been considered wrong to limit children for good reason, and to abstain for doing so. (Though in modern times even Catholics are confused about this, thinking that abstinence in marriage is not required or allowed. Before reliable NFP and ABC it was taken for granted that it was.) In using NFP appropriately, this has not changed, the times when one has to abstain have simply been better defined. The CC never demanded that every sex act result in a baby, the human body and human sexuality are not made that way.

As well, on a practical level, one can see the results of using NFP are rather different than ABC. For one thing, it requires abstinence, which is an important feature of married life in a more traditional understanding of marriage. It tends to reinforce, rather than eclipse the idea that sex and procreation are intimately connected, and so encourage responsibility for outcomes. And people are perhaps less likely to avoid conception without a good reason, since it means not doing something that they want to do.

FWIW, the CC doesn't support diet pills unless there is an abnormal condition being corrected, or vomitoriums either.

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#81 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 02:45 PM
 
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Bluegoat, I think you explained it well, although I did have to wrap my head around a few things. It ulitmately comes down to couples acknowledging and respecting abstinence, which is unheard of in popular culture. Am I correct?

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#82 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 03:56 PM
 
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Also about allowable sex acts. The CC does not have that particular view of the purpose of marriage & sex as an outlet for sexual drive. I believe the Orthodox Church views this as one of 4 purposes of marriage, CC only has 3. We're all about chastity, even in marriage
True, the Orthodox Church does see sex within marriage as valuable in and of itself. We have periods of abstinence associated with fasting, but fewer restrictions on marital sex during non-fasting periods. This would explain a lot about the difference in outlook between those two churches.
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#83 of 220 Old 01-07-2010, 06:45 PM
 
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However. in the OC, if we were to observe the fast strictly we would not have sex for a full half the year already. Also things like viagra are technically against church teaching (I forgot where io read that) but it said when that time comes your raltionship has changed and it is time to take it a new place. a place relationship natrually went years before but now seldom do. they do view abstinence as a blessing as it provides more time focused on prayer. So while it is valuble to the marriage (but I think this is tied into the spiritual emotional goodness of being willing to commit to concieving a child with your spouse) it is by no means allowed to rule it, nor is it ever completely seperated from propcreation since the official teaching is against ABC.

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#84 of 220 Old 01-08-2010, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
However. in the OC, if we were to observe the fast strictly we would not have sex for a full half the year already. Also things like viagra are technically against church teaching (I forgot where io read that) but it said when that time comes your raltionship has changed and it is time to take it a new place. a place relationship natrually went years before but now seldom do. they do view abstinence as a blessing as it provides more time focused on prayer. So while it is valuble to the marriage (but I think this is tied into the spiritual emotional goodness of being willing to commit to concieving a child with your spouse) it is by no means allowed to rule it, nor is it ever completely seperated from propcreation since the official teaching is against ABC.
I suspect part of the difference between the CC and Orthodox views may relate to the view of where sex comes from. In both cases it is considered natural and a kind of good.

But generally, (and there is overlap) the CC tends to take the view that sexual reproduction was always part of the plan, even before the Fall. Whereas many of the Orthodox theologians have taken the POV that although their would have been marriage before the Fall, there would not have been sexual reproduction. (As I said, this isn't a perfect split and both views are represented by theologians on both sides, but this seems to be the tendency in my observation.)

What this means in the CC view is that sex is in a way a more integral part of marriage, and it is indeed tied very closely with procreation by it's very nature. But for the Orthodox, although it is true that that is the case for us in our current situation (which is significant) theoretically marriage and procreation are not tied quite as closely. This leaves both more room for the possibility of marriage without sex, and sex without procreation, if those things are seen to really and legitimately further the true nature of marriage, which is a primarily spiritual union. (THough in practice, it could easily turn out that ABC was never actually appropriate even from an Orthodox POV.)

However, that is just my thought about it the reason for the difference, I haven't actually read it anywhere, so I could be way off in left field.

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#85 of 220 Old 01-08-2010, 03:53 PM
 
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OK, so I have heard in this post that having a vasectomy would be his sin, not mine. However, if you know he has had a vasectomy, the sex is no longer "open to procreation" wouldn't that also be considered illicit?

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#86 of 220 Old 01-09-2010, 12:09 PM
 
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actually a vas is not 100%. As long as you are still open to the possiblity of life you would be just fine.

I had to really focus on the fact that it was at least possible.

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#87 of 220 Old 01-09-2010, 01:31 PM
 
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Can you (general you) see why this might seem odd? Married couples can only engage in sex which is likely to produce a pregnancy; but they may do so at times chosen to reduce the chance of pregnancy.

The very strict limitations on allowable sex acts also seems to contradict one of the purposes of marriage, which is to allow a legitimate sexual "outlet" - because it is "better to marry than to burn" and so forth - but I suppose that is a different topic.
I addressed this in my previous post, which I know was very long so perhaps you didn't see the points I made or just didn't find them convincing?

Here:

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When people compare NFP to artificial birth control they are missing the point of it all. NFP demands that couples be aware of the life bringing potential of sexual intercourse and if they cannot (for hopefully a grave reason) be open to welcoming a child then they just do not engage in sex together during the suspected fertile period. That is a very different thing from knowing you are fertile, not wanting to be responsible for the natural consequence of that fertility and just strapping on a condom and having fun anyway. It requires a lot of self control on the part of both partners, excellent communication and a willing heart.
I can clearly see a difference between NFP and artificial birth control. The Church does support a whole, pleasurable sexual relationship between a husband and wife - from what I understand procreation isn't more important than emotional unity and physical pleasure but they are all entwined as aspects that make sexual act a complete one and if any one of them is removed then the sex isn't as God intended it to be for humans.

Really, Theology of the Body is a great resource for those who want to understand the sexual theology of the human body from a CC stance better.

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#88 of 220 Old 01-09-2010, 01:34 PM
 
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OK, so I have heard in this post that having a vasectomy would be his sin, not mine. However, if you know he has had a vasectomy, the sex is no longer "open to procreation" wouldn't that also be considered illicit?
I did a general search on Catholic Answers in their Apologists forum for "vasectomy" and lots of threads with specific questions and answers popped up:

http://forums.catholic.com/search.php?searchid=5789166

and here is one for the search term "birth control":

http://forums.catholic.com/search.php?searchid=5789178

I am posting these links because different readers of this thread may have varying specific questions in regards to the CC and contraception. There is a good chance that their specific question will be addressed in one of these links.

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#89 of 220 Old 01-09-2010, 01:44 PM
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I read an analogy for the difference between ABC and NFP recently by Christopher West in the most recent Family Foundations magazine. He asks what's the difference between using ABC and waiting until you are naturally infertile to have sex? The result is the same, since you have sex and you do not get pregnant. He compares that to the question, what's the difference between killing Grandma now and just waiting for her to die naturally? The result is the same, Grandma is dead.

Bluegoat, your explanation was beautiful. I just wanted to add that an important element is cooperating with the way that God created our bodies to be. Thus, TTA with NFP for less than selfless reasons is not a mortal sin. ABC in the same circumstances is.
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#90 of 220 Old 01-09-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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I found this link on another thread and thought it might be interesting here.

http://www.exceptionalmarriages.com/...l.asp?ID=39011
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