Do you believe in God? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 04:15 AM
 
orangewallflower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post
If I had a choice to hang out with Dawkins or Jesus, I would pick JC all day! One weird thing is that some people say 'I don't believe in Jesus, or I don't believe in the Bible'. Umm you don't get a choice there. The Bible exists I can hold it right now, you can say its just a story book, but it does exist and it is a best seller, and clearly, JC existed. It may be legit to not believe He was Divine, there is an argument there. But to say you don't believe in Him period? Well do people go around saying they don't believe in the (partially mythologized) Socrates or Ben Franklin?
As would I. While I do not believe that Christ was divine, I believe that he was such a great man that his followers simply couldn't cope without him. So they deified him. I would love to meet him and anyone who has done something similar: the Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious. This would be far more interesting than a socially challenged evolutionary biologist. I like listening to Dawkins talk about evolution. On religion, he misses the mark because he does not see the positive role that it plays in so many people's lives. Yet I do agree with him that it can also be a profoundly negative thing too as with the subjugation of women in some cultures (just to name an example)
orangewallflower is offline  
#122 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 07:34 AM
 
mntnmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't believe in the literal, involved omnipotent god I was raised with. Too many things just don't add up to me. I don't believe in the supernatural. But I do believe in there are things our finite minds will never understand. I CHOOSE to believe in some form of "prime mover" or "greater power", because I've seen many things that point to a larger spiritual nature behind what we see.
So I've settled on being a "pantheist". I believe everything *is* god, and vice versa. I try to practice seasonal based pagan traditions with my kids. It helps me celebrate the beauty of the world's cycles. It doesn't have to be caused by anyone to be amazing.
On the whole Jesus thing: personally, I believe he was an inspired teacher, and probably really existed. But there is nothing beyond the Bible to say he did. There are hundreds of writings by both Socrates and Ben Franklin, and paintings and busts made at the time they lived. I might question that they did "X", or the validity of certain comments, but questioning their existence is a little different than questioning the existence of Jesus. If you believe the Bible is just a book of stories, there is NO evidence he ever lived.

Mom of 4 aspiring midwife "Friend"ly seeker
mntnmom is offline  
#123 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 10:31 AM
 
Purple Sage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
It happens because intrinsic value is value that comes from what something is, not how it's created.

Something that, through it's very being, provides benefit in someway has a higher intrinsic value then something that doesn't. Intrinsic value doesn't exist seperate from what it is part of and what it is part of cannot exist without intrinsic value.

Note: Value does not have to equal a positive amount, value is simply the overall worth of something which can be negative.
But who gets to decide what the intrinsic value of something is?

If everything in the universe is just randomly here due to chance occurrence, then I would think that the 'intrinsic' value of everything is completely subjective. I can decide that the intrinsic value of anything from a rock to a person is whatever I want it to be. Groups of people can come to an agreement on what they consider to be the intrinsic value of things (or people or animals or whatever), but that's still just a subjective opinion and can change.

On the other hand, if everything in the universe is created by an intelligent higher power, then the Creator has made each part of Its creation with the intrinsic value It has decided upon. That value is objective because it was intentionally put there by the Creator during its creation and can never change.

So how do objects in a completely random universe get their objective intrinsic value? And if that value is subjective, then how is it intrinsic?
Purple Sage is offline  
#124 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 12:08 PM
 
ThirdEyeMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the light of the silvery moon.
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yokosmile View Post
There's no proof that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist either.
OP isn't looking for a changing belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The philosophic argument that God does or does not exist is milleniums old and won't be resolved resolved today. My post was in response to OP's question to express the personal conviction I hold versus the opinions of those in this thread who express the desire for "proof" of God's existence. In defense of my position, I offer this quote: "The ontological argument attempts to prove God’s existence through abstract reasoning alone. The argument is entirely a priori, i.e. it involves no empirical evidence at all. Rather, the argument begins with an explication of the concept of God, and seeks to demonstrate that God exists on the basis of that concept alone. Whether such a proof is possible even in principle is questioned by Hume."

The ontological argument is only one position in which great minds have addressed the idea and existence of God. There are some common philosophical arguments for theism: Pascal’s Wager, The Ontological Argument, The Cosmological Argument (including the first cause argument), The Teleological Argument (i.e. the argument from design), The Moral Argument, and The Argument from Religious Experience. These philosophic theistic views are found at http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/. The Philosophy of Religion site is a nice informative site for questioning minds.

"There is a special place in Hell for women who do not help other women." ~ Madeleine Albright, first woman U. S. Secretary of State.
ThirdEyeMom is offline  
#125 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 12:09 PM
 
SunshineJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In transition
Posts: 1,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
How does this work, exactly? How do you know the intrinsic value of anything?

I thought the alternative to an intelligent higher power creating the universe was a random, chaotic, indifferent, natural universe....so wouldn't the intrinsic value of things made from the random events of a random universe be, in fact, random?
Actually I think this is a very limiting view of things. Simply because we don't have "the" answer it doesn't mean that the answer doesn't exist. Frankly, I've found that the big things in nature tend to follow a logical sequence if you step back, one that's irrelevant to the higher power discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
No, I am saying that the value that something has is there because that something is there. Not that the value is always equal. And not because some higher power randomly decided to give it value, it's value is part of what it is, in other words the value is intrinsic.
This. For example, as we're all on a parenting forum I think we can probably agree that we believe that each child has value. That value doesn't come from God, it doesn't come from what society thinks of that child, but simply because the child *is*. If a child is in an abusive home where her parents think she is worthless and without value, that does not change the intrinsic value of that child outside that venue.

~~~~~
This thread has really made me do a lot of thinking and sorting things out. I converted to Paganism about a year ago, and unlike the Christianity I was raised with, there isn't a set of pre-written instructions, so it's been a year heavy in introspection of just what I do believe in - and what I do not. I definitely don't believe in the Christian idea of God. Too much of that doesn't add up, doesn't make sense, and seems contradictory. I don't believe that a kind and loving God would set people up the way the god in that religion seems to.

I personally hate the phrase "divine power". It just sounds goofy to me. However, I guess that's the best phrase out there right now. I don't believe that One God created each individual creature and item on every world in every planet in every universe. I do think that there is some strong energy force behind it, and that the dieties I worship act as a way to more closely interact with that. I do believe that evil as well as good exists, but I don't believe that everything we can't explain that is contradictory to a set religion is the work of "Satan". I believe that everything works in balance, and most things aren't really defined as good or bad, but rather they just are. So, do I believe in god? Actually I believe in several, but more as another level of the cosmic force.
SunshineJ is offline  
#126 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 12:55 PM
 
Purple Sage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineJ View Post

This. For example, as we're all on a parenting forum I think we can probably agree that we believe that each child has value. That value doesn't come from God, it doesn't come from what society thinks of that child, but simply because the child *is*. If a child is in an abusive home where her parents think she is worthless and without value, that does not change the intrinsic value of that child outside that venue.
I actually do think that the value of each child comes from God, and that is precisely why a child has the same intrinsic value no matter what an individual may think about the value of said child.

I'm going to ask this again, in a universe that was not created by an intelligent higher power, who gets to decide what the intrinsic value is of anything is? How do you know what it is?
Purple Sage is offline  
#127 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:06 PM
 
Adele_Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This post is in response to a couple sub-discussions from earlier in the thread, but I'm not going to go back and find posts to quote.

1. I think the phrase "old guy with a beard' is used as kind of a code phrase to refer to a personal god. i.e. a god that "loves" us and has preferences, that cares how we behave and makes rules. A god that is omnipotent but is really just a kind of super-human that "thinks" and "wants". The characteristics of the god(s) of the three Abrahamic religions are very different, but they are all personal gods and when you compare them to religions that do not posit a personal god or gods the differences are relatively insignificant as opposed to the difference between a personal god and say a "creative force" or "divine energy that suffuses all things".

Also, the three Abrahamic religions share some prophets and mythology. They share an "origin" so to speak. And since all three religions maintain that god is unchanging, and since the characteristics attributed to god by the three different religions are different, believers of those religions either have to conclude that the three religions believe in different gods or they believe in the same god but the other two religions are totally wrong about the nature of God. However, people looking at the three religions from outside can arguably use a short hand of saying they believe in a "same god" - they just have different ideas about the nature of that god.

2. Some Christians like to maintain that they are monotheists with "three-in-one" mystical-speak, and that is certainly their option, but it is easy to see why Muslims could say they are not really montheists - two (or three) separate divinities - Jesus and God. The early Jews were not monotheists in the sense that they believed only one god existed. They believed the gods of other cultures existed, these gods were simply considered inferior to their own god. The god of the Hebrews was the only god they were supposed to worship. The commandment to "have no other gods before me" is often interpreted today as meaning not to put money or government or things like that before God, but it was actually a quite literal commandment to worship only one god - the god of the Hebrews. The gods of other peoples were considered to exist, but to be separate from the one god worshipped by the Hebrews and to be far inferior in power, importance, and pretty much everything to the god of the Hebrews. The early Hebrews thought of themselves as a chosen people, but chosen by one particular god. Other peoples may be chosen by other gods. By the time of the Muslims both the Jews and and the Muslims were truly monotheistic - believing in the existence of only one universal God - but while this has always been true of the Muslims (or at least I think they maintain that it is) - all you have to do is read the Old Testament to see that it was not always true of the Jews.

Adele geek.gif, Mommy to Adelia hearts.gif7/31/2000, wife to Rod fuzmalesling.gif, and co-owner of Max dog2.gif
 
 
Adele_Mommy is offline  
#128 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:24 PM
 
EFmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
I actually do think that the value of each child comes from God, and that is precisely why a child has the same intrinsic value no matter what an individual may think about the value of said child.

I'm going to ask this again, in a universe that was not created by an intelligent higher power, who gets to decide what the intrinsic value is of anything is? How do you know what it is?
Whose "intelligent higher power" gets to decide the intrinsic value of anything?
EFmom is offline  
#129 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:30 PM
 
Purple Sage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post
Whose "intelligent higher power" gets to decide the intrinsic value of anything?
That's a different discussion. And it doesn't answer my question.
Purple Sage is offline  
#130 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:35 PM
 
pumpkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Stepford
Posts: 2,898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't believe in a deity because I don't believe in worship. I am willing to believe that in the vast universe there may be a species that is much more evolved then we are. They might even seem god-like. There would be no reason for me to consider myself below them, they are simply further along.

If there is someone out there that decides my fate based upon whether or not I performed the right rituals or worshiped properly then its time to overthrow the regime. A being that expects that kind of thing does not deserve respect or cooperation.

Mom to Kira March 2009
pumpkin is offline  
#131 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:40 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
I actually do think that the value of each child comes from God, and that is precisely why a child has the same intrinsic value no matter what an individual may think about the value of said child.

I'm going to ask this again, in a universe that was not created by an intelligent higher power, who gets to decide what the intrinsic value is of anything is? How do you know what it is?
In a universe that was created by an intelligent higher power, who gets to decide what the intrinsic value of anything is? The "higher power"? Fine - but what does that actually mean, in real life terms?

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#132 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post
I have come full circle on the creation issue, especially on the subject of motive & PR. I feel like it is the side of Science that has the most to gain, via patent law, of denying the existence of God. Growing up, I felt like the only correct position was pro Darwin, anti-fanatical. But it seems that there is a clear motive in science for denying a creator or giving a 'jury's out'. They gain moral relativism, like 'who's's to say it is wrong to clone mice for eyelash research?' or 'who's's to say we can't own a seed or say, contaminate the whole world's corn with our patented genome?'
Seriously? I've heard more religious justifications for this kind of thing than secular ones...arguments that God gave us "dominion" over the rest of the earth and that we have a divine right to do whatever we want with the rest of the earth.

I believe any honest scientist would say that we simply don't know enough about the long-term ramifications to mess around with cloning and genetic modifications of our food supply.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#133 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 02:49 PM
 
EFmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
That's a different discussion. And it doesn't answer my question.
Well, since I've never seen a shred of evidence for anybody's "intelligent higher power," it's a moot question.

The value of anything is in the eye of the beholder, whether that thing is a dollar or a baby.

Many religious folk think the intrinsic value of a person is relative as well, although not many would admit it. Take, for example, all the Christians who are opposed to abortion, but are perfectly OK with capital punishment.
EFmom is offline  
#134 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 03:15 PM
 
carmel23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 5,218
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'd just like to interject a few points. First of all, it is possible to understand evolution and believe in God. In fact, the Catholic Church just had a big conference on evolution--and the intelligent design folks were pissed off because they weren't invited.

Faith begins where reason ends. We don't need faith to understand what we can apply reason to--i.e. the domains of science.

But even the big bang theory doesn't explain where the mass of "stuff," the singularity, comes from. It starts with SOMETHING (even if this something doesn't resemble what we now understand as a 'thing'. So there is something that exists-- where did that come from? Science cannot explain that. That is a matter of faith, then, because it is beyond reason.

It doesn't explain WHY there is something, and not Nothing.

And the ontological argument does begin with our experience of reality-- it is based on our experience of the world. There are whole branches of philosophy that reject Kant and Hume, because our experience of the world is true--our ideas do correspond to reality. That is why we can put a rocket on the moon--because our ideas of physics correspond to reality. Yes, there is a lot that is beyond our perception and we don't necessarily perceive everything. But we know enough to operate in the world, and we can understand a lot of the universe that we can't empirically know-- but mathematics and logical thinking still prove to correspond to reality, hence our ability to place objects on mars, etc.

We have the cosmological argument, which predates Christianity and goes at least back to Aristotle, who wasn't a Theist.

 hh2.gif  ~~~~~~~~~~hh2.gif
 

carmel23 is offline  
#135 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 03:24 PM
 
junie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CANADA
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
But who gets to decide what the intrinsic value of something is?
No one. The value of any particular person or thing boils down to their potential, and that doesn't change even if they're not utilizing that potential or that potential isn't being appreciated.

For example, my husband enjoys drawing. I would say he has intrinsic value as an artist because he possesses the potential to draw well. He doesn't necessarily utilize that potential to create great works of art, so practically and subjectively he's not always of much value as an artist, but the potential still exists. How did his skill develop? A combination of genetics and using his talent over the years. No higher being (that we know of - I'm stating it like this to show that no higher being is necessary for his intrinsic value).

Now of course you could argue that it's still subjective since it requires someone else to appreciate his skill in order to be of any value, but whether or not his skill is appreciated doesn't change the level of skill he possesses. What he has to offer, or his value, remains the same. It's intrinsic. Subjectively, he is more or less valuable depending on who is appreciating his work, how much work he produces etc. Objectively, he will always only be able to produce a certain quality of work, so his value will always boil down to those skills at that level, and only that level. And what that level is does not require a belief in a higher power to explain it.

Alyson: loving wife to Iain; unschooling mom to Abby (8) and Caleb (5). Also pro
junie is offline  
#136 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 05:02 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post

Many religious folk think the intrinsic value of a person is relative as well, although not many would admit it. Take, for example, all the Christians who are opposed to abortion, but are perfectly OK with capital punishment.
I really like the point made earlier, about science being a faith, that you just have faith that the answers are there, and even if you don't know them right now, they are there to discover.
It's hard to say if I was a Christian when I believed in capital punishment, I was in transition, but now, I am Christian and against capital punishment.
As someone who believes in God, I have faith that if I don't know something right now, the truth exists, and since truth is never changing, it will be the same when I am ready to embrace it.

I think it's less of "not admitting it" and more of, "we're not perfect. We all have a hundred plus things to learn".
bluebirdiemama is offline  
#137 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 05:14 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
I'd just like to interject a few points. First of all, it is possible to understand evolution and believe in God. In fact, the Catholic Church just had a big conference on evolution--and the intelligent design folks were pissed off because they weren't invited.

Faith begins where reason ends. We don't need faith to understand what we can apply reason to--i.e. the domains of science.

But even the big bang theory doesn't explain where the mass of "stuff," the singularity, comes from. It starts with SOMETHING (even if this something doesn't resemble what we now understand as a 'thing'. So there is something that exists-- where did that come from? Science cannot explain that. That is a matter of faith, then, because it is beyond reason.

It doesn't explain WHY there is something, and not Nothing.

.............

We have the cosmological argument, which predates Christianity and goes at least back to Aristotle, who wasn't a Theist.

You make some good, interesting points

I think faith and science can co-exist nicely, as long as it's not "marketable faith" and/or "marketable science".
Obviously there is some degree of evolution, just, what is that degree? I don't think it explains the beggining of life. And Im wondering.... what the point is of the conference you mentioned? Have Catholics decided they don't believe in Genesis anymore? Or do they simply not wanting the "intelligent designers" making a stink about degrees of evolution?
If there are people called "intelligent designers" who think there is no evolution of species at all... that's new to me.
bluebirdiemama is offline  
#138 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 05:17 PM
 
LeilaM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdiemama View Post
I think that if you looked into it you would find science, in fact, doesn't provide all the answers.
I did not say that science has already provided all the answers. I said that science *can* provide the answers. Science isn't finished. It's a process.

Our scientific understanding of the world has grown vastly over the past 100 years alone. I can't even imagine how much more it will have explained in another 100 years. Given enough time, it has the potential to explain virtually everything in a real, factual way.
LeilaM is offline  
#139 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 05:22 PM
 
Thalia the Muse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Going from "not life" to "life" isn't really an evolution question -- evolution just deals with changes over time in populations of living organisms, so by definition it can't deal with "before life."

Where life originally came from a fascinating question, and one where I think there are lots of interesting theories but no "aha, this is definitely it" answer at the moment.

I think there are questions where it's possible we may never be able to gather enough data to derive a scientific answer (where did matter come from? What was going on before the Big Bang? Is there life elsewhere in the universe and how common is it?) -- and there are others that science can't answer because they are philosophical questions, not scientific ones. Does life have meaning? Is there intrinsic value or some kind of inherent ethical standard? What is the meaning of "good" and what constitutes a good life? These are really, really important questions, but they aren't scientific ones and can't be approached scientifically.
Thalia the Muse is offline  
#140 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 05:49 PM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 10,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
I actually do think that the value of each child comes from God, and that is precisely why a child has the same intrinsic value no matter what an individual may think about the value of said child.

I'm going to ask this again, in a universe that was not created by an intelligent higher power, who gets to decide what the intrinsic value is of anything is? How do you know what it is?
No one and nothing decides the intrinsic value of anything. The intrinsic value of something is not by definition something that can be assigned by an out side person or being. It comes from within. Intrinsic value belongs to something by it's very nature.

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#141 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 05:57 PM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 10,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

I have come full circle on the creation issue, especially on the subject of motive & PR. I feel like it is the side of Science that has the most to gain, via patent law, of denying the existence of God. Growing up, I felt like the only correct position was pro Darwin, anti-fanatical. But it seems that there is a clear motive in science for denying a creator or giving a 'jury's out'. They gain moral relativism, like 'who's's to say it is wrong to clone mice for eyelash research?' or 'who's's to say we can't own a seed or say, contaminate the whole world's corn with our patented genome?'
That is where applied ethics comes in. Omit religion, omit personal gain, examind situation with logic and a clear definition of what "moral" means at it's core and you find out there is really very, very few cases where moral relativism is the result.

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#142 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 06:02 PM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 10,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Science isn't about finding all the answeres, it's about determining the most probably cause. That is why you can never prove the null hypothesis, only fail to reject it.

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#143 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 07:11 PM
 
orangewallflower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdiemama View Post
You make some good, interesting points

I think faith and science can co-exist nicely, as long as it's not "marketable faith" and/or "marketable science".
Obviously there is some degree of evolution, just, what is that degree? I don't think it explains the beggining of life. And Im wondering.... what the point is of the conference you mentioned? Have Catholics decided they don't believe in Genesis anymore? Or do they simply not wanting the "intelligent designers" making a stink about degrees of evolution?
If there are people called "intelligent designers" who think there is no evolution of species at all... that's new to me.
Evolution does not explain the origin of life. There is no scientific theory (a theory is an explanation of observed phenomena) that does so. If one comes about it will be its own thing, not evolution. It is unlikely to ever happen. It will remain a mystery and rich ground for religious faith.

If intelligent designers all embrace the idea of evolution what is the problem? All I have observed in the name of intelligent design is (1) a desire for science teachers to discuss religious ideas (as inappropriate as a church being required to have a scientist give a counter argument to scripture) and
(2) a seriously misinformed notion of evolution. I have NEVER heard an IDer describe evolution in a way that reflects a fundamental understanding of what it is.
orangewallflower is offline  
#144 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 09:19 PM
 
SunshineJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In transition
Posts: 1,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
But who gets to decide what the intrinsic value of something is?

If everything in the universe is just randomly here due to chance occurrence, then I would think that the 'intrinsic' value of everything is completely subjective. I can decide that the intrinsic value of anything from a rock to a person is whatever I want it to be. Groups of people can come to an agreement on what they consider to be the intrinsic value of things (or people or animals or whatever), but that's still just a subjective opinion and can change.

On the other hand, if everything in the universe is created by an intelligent higher power, then the Creator has made each part of Its creation with the intrinsic value It has decided upon. That value is objective because it was intentionally put there by the Creator during its creation and can never change.

So how do objects in a completely random universe get their objective intrinsic value? And if that value is subjective, then how is it intrinsic?
Ok I've figured out what's bothering me about this. It's the assumption that anything may be of more value in nature than something else. I do not believe that to be true. For example, the lowly fungi and bacteria that decompose fallen leaves in a forest performs a valuable function and has no less value than the predators who prevent overpopulation. As the world was created, prior to mankind going in to muck it all up, things were in a good balance, with each entity having value. No one had to tell the fungus it was important, and it didn't need to evaluate it's sense of self worth to determine it's value, it just was and is. If you look at some of the remaining tribes in the world that have been minimally touched by modern developments, you can see how man as well fits into that balance. This doesn't mean that some random god somewhere went around assigning "intrinsic value" points to the different entities on a master list, and provides no evidence of such a god existing. And I don't believe that perfectly balanced ecosystems immediately evolved that way, there'd be no reason for adaptation otherwise. You (general) may not see something as having value, but honestly when it comes to nature, she really doesn't care about your opinion, kwim? Bottom line I guess is that when some people look, they see the hand of God in everything and when other people look they see anything but that.
SunshineJ is offline  
#145 of 182 Old 02-18-2010, 11:19 PM
 
whiddle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewsmom View Post
I'm asking this here b/c I wanted to get some answers from those who believe as well as some athiests as well. If you don't why? If you do why?
No.IMO, it's not logical and there is no evidence to support the existence of any deity.
whiddle is offline  
#146 of 182 Old 02-19-2010, 12:25 AM
 
ThirdEyeMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the light of the silvery moon.
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
I'd just like to interject a few points. First of all, it is possible to understand evolution and believe in God. In fact, the Catholic Church just had a big conference on evolution--and the intelligent design folks were pissed off because they weren't invited. ...
The upcoming Vatican-sponsored conference takes place March 3-7. February 10 was the presentation. This international conference on evolution will include "critical study of the theory of intelligent design, which, organizers said, represents poor theology and science." The proponents of intelligent design were not invited to give presentations at the March conference. "Organizers agreed to discuss how it appeared and developed as a cultural ideology, not as science."

Stay tuned...

"There is a special place in Hell for women who do not help other women." ~ Madeleine Albright, first woman U. S. Secretary of State.
ThirdEyeMom is offline  
#147 of 182 Old 02-19-2010, 01:28 AM
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The question in the OP would make a great poll. ok I made a poll please come vote in it http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1196875
Arduinna is offline  
#148 of 182 Old 02-19-2010, 02:14 AM
 
*EarthMama*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Land of Enchantment
Posts: 243
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't believe in God as a supreme being. I believe in a consciousness that flows through us all. A Oneness of Love. My experience with this is not a being outside of myself but rather an energy of divine intelligence of which we are all a part.

Just wanted to add that I do believe this to be a part of every living thing. We are all (fungus included ) part of the light, part of creation and thus one, so there is no hierarchy.

Free-birthing, un-schooling (Waldorf style), extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering Earth Mama to Kayleb, ( 10/07) and Anaya ( 5/10)! Joyfully married to my beloved I hug trees and plant seeds.
*EarthMama* is offline  
#149 of 182 Old 02-19-2010, 10:00 AM
 
Purple Sage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineJ View Post
Ok I've figured out what's bothering me about this. It's the assumption that anything may be of more value in nature than something else. I do not believe that to be true. For example, the lowly fungi and bacteria that decompose fallen leaves in a forest performs a valuable function and has no less value than the predators who prevent overpopulation. As the world was created, prior to mankind going in to muck it all up, things were in a good balance, with each entity having value. No one had to tell the fungus it was important, and it didn't need to evaluate it's sense of self worth to determine it's value, it just was and is.
I guess I don't have a problem with believing that humans have more value than, say, a mushroom. Not that a mushroom has no value, but I would have no problem saving a human life over the life of a mushroom.

As for intrinsic value, it seems that I agree with the other posters that each part of (what I call) creation has its own value that comes from within it. The only difference is that I believe it was created with that value by God. I'm still not sure how anyone can know what the intrinsic value of anything is otherwise. Just saying something has intrinsic value *just because* isn't a satisfying answer for me.

Quote:
The upcoming Vatican-sponsored conference takes place March 3-7. February 10 was the presentation. This international conference on evolution will include "critical study of the theory of intelligent design, which, organizers said, represents poor theology and science." The proponents of intelligent design were not invited to give presentations at the March conference. "Organizers agreed to discuss how it appeared and developed as a cultural ideology, not as science."

Stay tuned...
I'm very interested to hear what they have to say! I'm of the opinion that science uncovers the nature of God (as much as it can). Religion and science are not in opposition. There are simply questions that science cannot answer, and God is the most reasonable answer that I've found for those questions. And I'm saying this as someone who identified as a pagan for many years and only very recently came to this conclusion. The more I learn about the religion that I spent so many years opposed to, the more convinced I become.
Purple Sage is offline  
#150 of 182 Old 02-19-2010, 01:43 PM
 
Thalia the Muse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I'm still not sure how anyone can know what the intrinsic value of anything is otherwise.
But religious people don't agree -- at all -- about this either, so clearly if there IS a deity, it still hasn't solved the issue of how human being can know intrinsic value.
Thalia the Muse is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off