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#1 of 17 Old 06-02-2010, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Can someone tell me when the last part of the Lord's prayer was added (for Protestants)? "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the Glory, for ever and ever" is not in the bible.

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#2 of 17 Old 06-02-2010, 11:42 PM
 
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In the Orthodox church (and many of our prayers predate the protestant church as a whole so some protestant traditions may do this and not even know why because so few people really know where these traditions came from to begin with. These prayers and traditions have been passed down for hundreds and hundreds of years and people have just forgotten where they started....) this last part is a prayer directly following the Lords Prayer in our daily prayers. In some prayer books it says only the priest should say it and if there is no priest then it gets skipped. Other books indicate whoever is leading the prayers should say it (when people are praying together the Lords prayer is generally said by everyone, even if they do not chime in on the other prayers).

It seems to me it is a seperate prayer.

And all this probably makes a lot more sense if you understand liturgucal prayer a little....

We use the prayers of others as well as using scripture to help shape our prayer. These prayers are said daily to express things that we may not feel like saying or asking for but need to be said or asked for anyway. But we are not merely quoting people or scriptures. therefore adding parts before or after to help make it more prayerful is in no way misquoting or abusing scripture.


Does that make any kind of sense? Sorry if it doesn't. I am killer hungry and more than a little scatterbrained....

here is an example of our opening prayers (this set of prayers is pretty musch said before everything and at every service, sometimes more than once or twice....)

Quote:
In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Glory to thee, our God, glory to thee.

O heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and abide in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O gracious Lord.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for thy Name's sake.

Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name; thye kingdom come; thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
It is easy to see that 1) We repeat the part about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit A LOT. All over the place. 2) it is quite seperate from the Lords prayer. Perhaps some people just held on to that part when they left their previous traditions of worship. And some merely quote the scripture as prayer as well. Not all protestant traditions do add the closing prayer. Perhaps it is because they want to stick exactly to scripture or it simply is not their tradition to add a closing/opening prayer because they do not say the Lords Prayer as part of a larger set of liturgucal prayer or they just do not fdo that prayer for whatever reason.

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#3 of 17 Old 06-03-2010, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
In the Orthodox church (and many of our prayers predate the protestant church as a whole so some protestant traditions may do this and not even know why because so few people really know where these traditions came from to begin with. These prayers and traditions have been passed down for hundreds and hundreds of years and people have just forgotten where they started....) this last part is a prayer directly following the Lords Prayer in our daily prayers. In some prayer books it says only the priest should say it and if there is no priest then it gets skipped. Other books indicate whoever is leading the prayers should say it (when people are praying together the Lords prayer is generally said by everyone, even if they do not chime in on the other prayers).

It seems to me it is a seperate prayer.

And all this probably makes a lot more sense if you understand liturgucal prayer a little....

We use the prayers of others as well as using scripture to help shape our prayer. These prayers are said daily to express things that we may not feel like saying or asking for but need to be said or asked for anyway. But we are not merely quoting people or scriptures. therefore adding parts before or after to help make it more prayerful is in no way misquoting or abusing scripture.


Does that make any kind of sense? Sorry if it doesn't. I am killer hungry and more than a little scatterbrained....

here is an example of our opening prayers (this set of prayers is pretty musch said before everything and at every service, sometimes more than once or twice....)



It is easy to see that 1) We repeat the part about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit A LOT. All over the place. 2) it is quite seperate from the Lords prayer. Perhaps some people just held on to that part when they left their previous traditions of worship. And some merely quote the scripture as prayer as well. Not all protestant traditions do add the closing prayer. Perhaps it is because they want to stick exactly to scripture or it simply is not their tradition to add a closing/opening prayer because they do not say the Lords Prayer as part of a larger set of liturgucal prayer or they just do not fdo that prayer for whatever reason.
This was very helpful! Thanks so much. I attend an anglo-catholic (very conservative /orthodox) church. We say the last bit (without the F/S/HS part). I was just curious about it today. Also, do you guys stand for the Gospel reading? We do. But I was at a funeral today (Methodist) and they didn't and it was so odd/actually uncomfortable for me.

OT: But our church actually dunked a baby last easter vigiil - the parents wanted it done in the orthodox tradition - and I thought of you Lilyka - you and TRadd are the only orthodox people I "know" LOL!
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#4 of 17 Old 06-03-2010, 12:54 AM
 
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Catholics don't use the "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory" either!

In between growing up Catholic and being Orthodox, I was an Episcopalian for five years. I had an amusing incident at a Catholic wedding. Another guest and I kept going out of habit with "For thine is the kingdom..." after everyone else (Catholic, I assume) had stopped. They were several pews in front of me. we talked after the wedding, and it turns out they were Lutheran!

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#5 of 17 Old 06-03-2010, 08:33 PM
 
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Grew up Presbyterian. We referred to the last bit as the doxology. You can read about it's history in the Lord's Prayer here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27..._ever._Amen.22

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#6 of 17 Old 06-03-2010, 09:00 PM
 
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That last line is a doxology. Some translations of some versions of Matthew do include it. See: Young's Literal Translation
Amplified Bible
King James Version
New King James Version

Wikipedia says

Quote:
The first known use of the doxology, in a less lengthy form ("for yours is the power and the glory forever"),[22] as a conclusion for the Lord's Prayer (in a version slightly different from that of Matthew) is in the Didache, 8:2
The Didache was supposedly written sometime 1st - 2nd century A.D. The first English versions of the prayer did not include the doxology as a part of the prayer itself, though people may have usually or always said the last line when they said the prayer. According to this page on the history of the Lord's Prayer, the doxology became part of the standardized English version of the prayer itself sometime around 1700.

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#7 of 17 Old 06-03-2010, 11:26 PM
 
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I was raised Roman Catholic (attended mass every Sunday until I turned 18) and we definitely said that part. It's possible that maybe just the priest said it, but it was definitely in there somewhere.
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#8 of 17 Old 06-03-2010, 11:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katala View Post
I was raised Roman Catholic (attended mass every Sunday until I turned 18) and we definitely said that part. It's possible that maybe just the priest said it, but it was definitely in there somewhere.
Catholic priests say that part, as do Orthodox priests, but not the layfolk, nor in your own prayers at home.

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#9 of 17 Old 06-04-2010, 12:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
But I was at a funeral today (Methodist) and they didn't and it was so odd/actually uncomfortable for me.
FWIW, I grew up in the Methodist church and we always DID stand for the gospel reading. So this is probably a church-by-church thing for Methodists.?
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#10 of 17 Old 06-04-2010, 03:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
Catholic priests say that part, as do Orthodox priests, but not the layfolk, nor in your own prayers at home.

Yup. I've been Catholic my whole life, it has always been said at the end of the Lord's Prayer, but only by the priest. We refrain from saying "Amen" until after the priest recites this part, and raise our hands higher while he says it.

"Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free, 'tis the gift to come down where you ought to be."
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#11 of 17 Old 06-06-2010, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for all the additional input This is all very fascinating. I thought the doxology was "praise God from whom all blessings flow, praise him all creatures here below, praise him above ye heavenly hosts, praise Father, son and holy ghost". Am I wrong?

Editing to add: okay, I see the above poster said "A" doxology, not "the " doxology.
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#12 of 17 Old 06-06-2010, 11:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy View Post
That last line is a doxology. Some translations of some versions of Matthew do include it. See: Young's Literal Translation
Amplified Bible
King James Version
New King James Version

Wikipedia says



The Didache was supposedly written sometime 1st - 2nd century A.D. The first English versions of the prayer did not include the doxology as a part of the prayer itself, though people may have usually or always said the last line when they said the prayer. According to this page on the history of the Lord's Prayer, the doxology became part of the standardized English version of the prayer itself sometime around 1700.
It's worthwhile to remember too that just because it was not written down doesn't mean it wasn't done earlier. Most such texts were developed for the communities to use, so what was in them was thee stuff they found useful. Something that was understood as being done might not get put in, like a recipe that assumes you know how to make a white sauce.

For example, in our Book of Common prayer, it never says to say "Glory be to the Father and the Son and to The Holy Ghost, As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, World without end. Amen" after each psalm is recited. But that is how it is done.

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#13 of 17 Old 06-07-2010, 01:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post

Editing to add: okay, I see the above poster said "A" doxology, not "the " doxology.
yes, a doxology is just an ending or something you do "after".

Heck, we start our service with a doxology, Its techincally the last song of the prevoius service but it also signals the beginning of Liturgy.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#14 of 17 Old 06-08-2010, 03:46 PM
 
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I'm realizing I probably caused confusion in my last post because, while I said the last line was a doxology, which it is, I then used "the doxology" a couple times to mean the-doxology-traditionally-used-at-the-end-of-The-Lord's-Prayer, not THE DOXOLOGY like there was only one or something.

A doxology is defined as

Quote:
a hymn or form of words containing an ascription of praise to god (www.dictionary.com)
When people say "The Doxology" they are usually referring to a traditional doxology that is always used in their religion.

We have a doxology that we sing every week at my UU church, and we would refer to it as "the doxology", but I doubt most Christians would think it qualifies as a doxology at all:

Quote:

From all that dwell below the skies
let songs of hope and faith arise;
let peace, good will on earth be sung
through every land, by every tongue.

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#15 of 17 Old 06-09-2010, 04:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Katala View Post
I was raised Roman Catholic (attended mass every Sunday until I turned 18) and we definitely said that part. It's possible that maybe just the priest said it, but it was definitely in there somewhere.
Catholics do say that part, but not as part of the Lord's Prayer. They say the Lord's prayer, the priest says a little prayer "Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ." THEN we say "for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, now and forever."

I've switched to Lutheran, and am completely out of sync with this, even after nearly 20 years.

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#16 of 17 Old 06-09-2010, 02:11 PM
 
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What many people think of as "The Doxology" as quoted in a pp:

From all that dwell below the skies
let songs of hope and faith arise;
let peace, good will on earth be sung
through every land, by every tongue.


is from a versified version of Psalm 100. The tune everyone knows it by is known as "Old 100th." It's from the 16th-17th Century, if I remember correctly. I'm a music geek who reads all the little notes in hymnals!

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#17 of 17 Old 06-26-2010, 09:33 PM
 
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What LynnS6 said is exactly what the priest says at the Catholic Church that I go to. I attended a Baptist Church when I was kid and we always said that last part too when we prayed the Lord's Prayer together.
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