Vatican Says that Ordaining Women Priests is a Crime Like Sex Abuse of Children - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 150 Old 08-09-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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This has been an interesting discussion to read...I am no longer Catholic, but growing up women not being allowed to be priests was always a HUGE issue. Many, many Catholics that I grew up with definitely think women should be allowed to be priests...and we never could get an answer as to why not that suited us. I went to Catholic school from K-12 and it was a pretty constant discussion amongst the children...and an issue that I am sure drove many away.

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#122 of 150 Old 08-11-2010, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Fantastic article from National Catholic Reporter:

The inner workings of a hierarchy with a sex offender mentality

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Let us be clear: We are not suggesting that church leaders are sex offenders. But we must name a tragic reality: Many of them think or respond the way sex offenders do when confronted with clergy sex abuse and its cover-up: They deny, defend and blame. They minimize and cover up. They become outraged when their abysmal handling of abuse cases is exposed. Most egregious of all, they display appalling deficits in empathy for victims: They turn to categorizing crimes when all people want is a heartfelt pastoral response from their leaders.

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#123 of 150 Old 08-17-2010, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Don't equate women priests with pedophiles

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"...The faithful have been justly demanding for nearly a decade clear guidelines for dealing with the sexual abuse of children, along with just punishments for both offenders and bishops who have abetted these crimes," Cones said. "What we have gotten is half of what we have been asking for (still no sanctions for bishops), along with a completely unconnected and unnecessary condemnation of the ordination of women."
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The Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Commission in 1976 concluded that there is nothing in the Bible to prohibit women's ordination.

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#124 of 150 Old 08-26-2010, 01:28 PM
 
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Answering the "why not" of women's ordination

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According to Sister Sara, many proponents of women’s ordination make the mistake of equating the priesthood with secular leadership roles rather than seeing it as a unique calling from God. Such characterization overlooks the sacramental nature of ordination, a teaching of Catholicism that differs from other Christian denominations in which women serve as ordained ministers.

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#125 of 150 Old 09-03-2010, 10:41 AM
 
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#126 of 150 Old 09-03-2010, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Such an explanation, how-ever, begs a deeper question that has been a topic of deliberation since the early days of the Church: Why did Jesus only choose men for the priesthood?
The whole premise of this article, summed up in this question, is problematic.

First of all, there was no established "priesthood" in the early Church, period. There were no priests in the early Christian church, for a century or more. Priests were still exclusive to the Jewish faith. So to say that Jesus "chose only men" for the "priesthood" is a HUGE assumption to begin with.

We know that Jesus had women disciples - likely, far more than were included in Canon Scripture - who traveled with Him, and ministered in His name. We know that female deacons existed - Phoebe is prominently noted, so there must have been more.

The Vatican is basing their argument on terribly flawed theology, and on "infallible" doctrine that really isn't.

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... many proponents of women’s ordination make the mistake of equating the priesthood with secular leadership roles rather than seeing it as a unique calling from God. Such characterization overlooks the sacramental nature of ordination,
This is another broad assumption, and a direct insult to women who ARE called to ordination. It's NOT simply a power trip, as Sr. Sara seems to imply. And who's to say that there aren't men who think in this "mistaken" way, as well?

I'm very disturbed by this underlying assumption in "conservative" Catholic circles that only men can properly discern spiritual calling (in the realm of ordination, anyway). That's utterly ridiculous, and many priests will readily acknowledge that.

The Church tries to use "the example of Jesus" as their reasoning for excluding and subtly belittling women (and don't tell me that the current "investigation" of all female religious orders ISN'T a demeaning power trip ); however, the irony is that if they were TRULY following the inclusive example of Our Lord, I wouldn't even be debating this topic.

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#127 of 150 Old 09-05-2010, 01:15 AM
 
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Early Christians weren't even Christians, they were Jewish. They attended Synagogue, and then went to each others' homes to study the writings of the apostles and to take part in the Eucharist.

Second- female deacons were only used for female baptisms, as those were done naked. These deacons were not used in any other liturgical setting.

Lastly, the investigation into the religious orders isn't a power trip. Many religious orders are not acting in line with the teachings of the Church. Some orders have members that vocally support abortion and other so-called "women's rights". Some orders have vocal members of Call to Action and other organizations with questionable motives. Some orders have overt Pagan/New Age overtones. These are issues that need to be addressed. and the investigation is looking into these issues.

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#128 of 150 Old 09-07-2010, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Early Christians weren't even Christians, they were Jewish. They attended Synagogue, and then went to each others' homes to study the writings of the apostles and to take part in the Eucharist.
Fascinating. This was certainly never covered in my Catholic Church history classes, nor in my study material! Where are you getting this information?!

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Second- female deacons were only used for female baptisms, as those were done naked. These deacons were not used in any other liturgical setting.


Another topic I seem to have missed in Church History 101! Please link to your source?

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Lastly, the investigation into the religious orders isn't a power trip. Many religious orders are not acting in line with the teachings of the Church. Some orders have members that vocally support abortion and other so-called "women's rights". Some orders have vocal members of Call to Action and other organizations with questionable motives. Some orders have overt Pagan/New Age overtones. These are issues that need to be addressed. and the investigation is looking into these issues.
I'll respectfully disagree with you on this one, P&L.

http://ncronline.org/news/women-reli...omen-religious

Quote:
The benignly titled "apostolic visitation" is by any other name an invasive probe ...


... the Vatican ... is revealing not a crisis in religious life but rather a crisis of the clerical and hierarchical culture.

... a crisis most graphically depicted in ... [the hierarchy's] handling of the clergy sex abuse crisis in which bishops systematically and repeatedly chose the preservation of their culture over the lives of children.

... what Vatican officials hope to achieve appears to be a forced, public acknowledgement by the sisters that the bishops and cardinals hold all the cards and are the final arbiters of how the women will conduct their lives.


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#129 of 150 Old 09-08-2010, 09:42 AM
 
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Fascinating. This was certainly never covered in my Catholic Church history classes, nor in my study material! Where are you getting this information?!



Another topic I seem to have missed in Church History 101! Please link to your source?
THis is pretty standard early Church history. Any good book on the topic should cover it.

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#130 of 150 Old 09-08-2010, 01:28 PM
 
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Fascinating. This was certainly never covered in my Catholic Church history classes, nor in my study material! Where are you getting this information?!

Another topic I seem to have missed in Church History 101! Please link to your source?
Sorry, no source link. It was covered in my Church History course at Franciscan University.

Additionally, Scott Hahn talks about it most of his talks regarding the Eucharist.

ETA: I did go and find some nice information for you:
Deaconess
Quote:
The universal prevalence of baptism by immersion and the anointing of the whole body which preceded it, rendered it a matter of propriety that in this ceremony the functions of the deacons should be discharged by women. The Didascalia Apostolorum (III, 12; see Funk, Didascalia, etc., I, 208) explicitly direct that the deaconesses are to perform this function...
Quote:
(Const. Apost., VIII, 27) that "the deaconess gives no blessing, she fulfills no function of priest or deacon"

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#131 of 150 Old 09-08-2010, 01:39 PM
 
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I'll respectfully disagree with you on this one, P&L.

http://ncronline.org/news/women-reli...omen-religious
I have a hard time believing this article regarding the visit not being about the lack of religious vocations in certain orders.
There seems to be a correlation between dissenting viewpoints and number of vocations. Those orders which are faithful to the Magistarium have more vocations than they know what to do with. Those with dissenting viewpoints have few, if any, new vocations.

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#132 of 150 Old 09-08-2010, 03:50 PM
 
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Women Make A Special Contribution To Theology
Re: St. Hildegard of Bingen

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Hildegard especially opposed the German Cathar movement. The Cathars...supported radical reform of the Church... She reprimanded them fiercely, accusing them of wanting to subvert the very nature of the Church and reminding them that the true renewal of the ecclesial community is not obtained by changing structures so much as by a sincere spirit of penance and a fruitful journey of conversion.

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#133 of 150 Old 09-08-2010, 04:22 PM
 
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National Catholic Reporter is not a legit source of info that is faithful to the magisterium. I used to have a sub, so I'm familiar with them and their articles, used to being the operative phrase here.
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#134 of 150 Old 09-18-2010, 11:20 PM
 
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During the Holy Father's homily at Westminster Cathedral, he addressed the abuse of minors.

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#135 of 150 Old 09-21-2010, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/on...he_church.html

From the comments section:

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What matters is whether the pope will actually ACT on his "humiliation and shame." Both are useless emotions unless they are followed by action, and the pope so far has proven that he is incapaple of doing more than just saying pretty words. ... What consequences are there for bishops, cardinals and popes who covered up for sexually predatory priests? (Oh, I forgot, Law is firmly esconced in one of the largest basilicas in the world as his consequence.) ... Words mean nothing. Shame means nothing. Humiliation means nothing if all the pope is going to do about this horror is pray.

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#136 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 01:40 PM
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Trigger, what do you want him to do? He is speaking out against the abuses that have taken place, making it clear that such behavior will not be tollerated by those who represent the Church. He has issued guidelines that address how to deal with priests who do abuse children. The Church is allowing every accused priest (bishop, etc) to face criminal charges and a fair trial. The Church in the US at least is requiring background checks for every person working with children, including all priests. Accused priests are removed from ministry involving children at least until their trials are settled. The Church's biggest focus is on counseling for the victims and their families. Nothing the pope or anyone else can do could make up for what has happened. When are we going to stop focusing on blame and start working with our pope and our Church to try to make it the best we can from here on out?
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#137 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 05:34 PM
 
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Trigger, what do you want him to do? He is speaking out against the abuses that have taken place, making it clear that such behavior will not be tollerated by those who represent the Church. He has issued guidelines that address how to deal with priests who do abuse children. The Church is allowing every accused priest (bishop, etc) to face criminal charges and a fair trial. The Church in the US at least is requiring background checks for every person working with children, including all priests. Accused priests are removed from ministry involving children at least until their trials are settled. The Church's biggest focus is on counseling for the victims and their families. Nothing the pope or anyone else can do could make up for what has happened. When are we going to stop focusing on blame and start working with our pope and our Church to try to make it the best we can from here on out?
Here Here!
I am truly tired of the argument that "nothing is being done".
Part of the reason we don't hear about it is because of the bias the media has, and the anti-Catholicism that is ever-present in American society.
"The Church is evil, the hierarchy is evil, the Church is chauvinistic and patristic, and nothing is ever going to be good enough"- that is the message I get from not only the secular media, but from certain "Catholic" media outlets. It is really getting to be a dead horse.

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#138 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You can call it "media bias", but the truth of the matter is that the Catholic Church deliberately covered up their own sins, and they have shown little to no real remorse, IMO, over both the sins as well as the cover-ups.

If this decades-long scandal was the product another denomination, I have a feeling you'd be all over them. I have no problem holding my own church's feet to the fire here.

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#139 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 08:43 PM
 
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You can call it "media bias", but the truth of the matter is that the Catholic Church deliberately covered up their own sins, and they have shown little to no real remorse, IMO, over both the sins as well as the cover-ups.

If this decades-long scandal was the product another denomination, I have a feeling you'd be all over them. I have no problem holding my own church's feet to the fire here.
Actually, no. I would see it as an internal matter that the denomination in question needs to address as it sees fit.
And Mother Church is doing a fine job of holding her own feet over the fire.

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#140 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 09:20 PM
 
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And I think I really must bow out of this thread

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#141 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 10:25 PM
 
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Actually, no. I would see it as an internal matter that the denomination in question needs to address as it sees fit.
And Mother Church is doing a fine job of holding her own feet over the fire.
Wow. I'm not sure how anybody could find the systematic abuse of children and the sheltering of pedophiles an "internal matter." And when any organization is in charge of policing itself, it's always bad news. In the case of the Vatican, it's been spectacularly bad, with John Paul an active participant in the systematic reshuffling of the preditors.

If that's a fine job, I'd hate to see a bad one.
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#142 of 150 Old 09-28-2010, 10:52 PM
 
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You can call it "media bias", but the truth of the matter is that the Catholic Church deliberately covered up their own sins, and they have shown little to no real remorse, IMO, over both the sins as well as the cover-ups.

If this decades-long scandal was the product another denomination, I have a feeling you'd be all over them. I have no problem holding my own church's feet to the fire here.
I am incredibly upset about this ongoing sex scandal and I converted to Catholicism in the middle of it. I became Catholic because of the theologies the Church teaches are true, given to us by the Magisterium - a group over the course of two millenia that I am sure we can all agree brought together deficient human men to create something extraordinary and divinely inspired... our Church's backbone in the way of teachings via Tradition and the interpretation of the Holy Gospel.

Now, I am sad and angered that power has corrupted some of these individuals. We are all prone to bad choices from petty gossip, to covering our tracks (for example , I have even been known to not make a complete confession because I was too embarrassed to tell the priest all of it). We all like to protect ourselves and what we hold dear. IS THAT RIGHT in every instance? No. Was it right for these Bishops to protect pedophiles... ABSOLUTELY NOT.

With that said, I get really aggravated when I read these types of constant nagging comments about the actions of those in the Church hierarchy over the last few decades. Any practicing Catholic can only hope that those responsible and those who worked in conjunction with the perpetrators to cover up the sinful crimes have made a true and holy confession and have been absolved of their wrongdoing. And that they are truly contrite and sorry.

The Church has responded in agony and sorrow, with apologies and huge sums of money. This should never have happened in the first place - WE ALL AGREE ON THAT - but what at this point should the Church do that it hasn't done, Trigger?

The fate of the souls of all the men involved in these sex crimes should be of paramount importance to any Christian Catholic, we as a body are joined together to help each other gain heaven. If you want less than that for these men, please explain yourself. Jesus Himself was clear that sin is sin and separates us from God and we ALL need Him to be able to be sanctified and to be with God after we die - from SAHMs who yell at their kids to those who commit the most heinous of acts. All of us.

My eyes are almost bleeding with tears for the children who were abused and for their families who feel so incredibly betrayed by those they trusted most. The crime of sexual abuse by a man in a position of supreme trust is emotionally the most devastating. I empathize and pray for the victims daily. I cannot fathom their struggle and the damage they have incurred. I am NOT defending their perpetrators as much as offering that every single soul who has ever been born on this planet has required salvation and has not deserved it - no matter how small or how large the sinful crimes that have been committed.

Once again, I abhor what these men did, I abhor how power can corrupt even the most pious of souls and I abhor that any human being is struggling with a proclivity to sexually abusing children. All are bad. No arguments here.

The vast majority of priests and religious are good and holy people, self-sacrifcing and driven to help humanity and that should not be overlooked. A few bad apples should not spoil the reputation of the bunch. The social justice mission of our Church is profoundly important and is being overshadowed by the actions of a very few men who succumbed to base, sinful desires or power and arrogance.

Our Church is altogether GOOD and not BAD despite your efforts to demonstrate otherwise and despite CNN and any other media network's efforts to diminish that work.

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#143 of 150 Old 09-30-2010, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...021519,00.html

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"You are just ignoring a gift when you bury it in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. We shouldn't just be satisfied with the status quo. The Holy Spirit has sent the priests that we need, but our hierarchy is refusing to recognize them."

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#144 of 150 Old 09-30-2010, 11:53 AM
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Wow. I'm not sure how anybody could find the systematic abuse of children and the sheltering of pedophiles an "internal matter." And when any organization is in charge of policing itself, it's always bad news. In the case of the Vatican, it's been spectacularly bad, with John Paul an active participant in the systematic reshuffling of the preditors.

If that's a fine job, I'd hate to see a bad one.
Wow! If that were true, I'd hate us too! If you have evidence that the Church was a place for systematic abuse of children with Pope John Paul II participating, you'd better let the Vatican know. They're thinking of declaring him a saint!

ETA: I don't think it's an internal matter, but in all the cases where there has been an accusation, the Church has cooperated with the proper secular authorities. There are some guilty parties who have not been terribly forthcoming with information, but seriously, they participated in the abuse of children. What makes you think that their moral standards are so high that they'd be willing to out themselves? If you have information on any abuse that has not yet been reported or brought to trial, I suggest you report it to the appropriate secular authorities. Really, I think the Church would be happier to have any corruption cleaned out.
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#145 of 150 Old 09-30-2010, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow! If that were true, I'd hate us too! If you have evidence that the Church was a place for systematic abuse of children with Pope John Paul II participating, you'd better let the Vatican know. They're thinking of declaring him a saint!
The Vatican was part of the system/problem.

I don't "hate" my church, btw. I am very disappointed in, and often angry with, the Roman Catholic patriarchal hierarchy; but I love my church (as defined: The Body of Christ).

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#146 of 150 Old 09-30-2010, 03:17 PM
 
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The heirarchy has stated time and again that women cannot, and will never, be priests. It cannot be done.

This is a dead horse topic with the media and certain groups insist on dragging out and beating in a public square.

How about this- instead of harping on a practice will never happen- encourage young men to discern the priesthood. The focus on ordaining women has taken to focus off where it needs to be- encouraging our young men to the priesthood. Retreats need to be scheduled, special presentations regarding the wonderful vocation of the priesthood should be presented, meetings and presentations by young orthodox priests, etc...

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#147 of 150 Old 10-01-2010, 11:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JMJ View Post
ETA: I don't think it's an internal matter, but in all the cases where there has been an accusation, the Church has cooperated with the proper secular authorities.
Really? All?
My guess is that they won't likely cooperate this time any more than they have in the past.

From here: A federal U.S. judge is asking the Vatican to co-operate in serving the pope and two other top officials with court papers that stem from decades-old allegations of sexual abuse by a priest in Wisconsin.
snip..
When faced with similar requests the Vatican has made service difficult, time-consuming and expensive by insisting, for example, that documentation be translated into Latin, one of the Vatican's official languages.
snip
The Vatican has argued that it isn't liable for clerical sex-abuse cases because according to canon law and the structure of the Catholic Church, bishops — not Rome — are responsible for disciplining pedophile priests.

Milwaukee Archbishop Rembert Weakland had complained about Murphy in a 1996 letter to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the powerful Vatican office then-Cardinal Ratzinger led from 1981 to his election as pope in 2005.


If you really want to have your stomach turned read a bit about how the Mount Cashel Orphanage "situation" was handled including the allegations that the Vatican liquidated and transferred assets out of Canada to avoid paying the court ordered settlements. There were 300+ victims dating back 40 years before the orphanage was shut down.

Honestly how anyone can say that this is not systemic or is just an "internal matter" is beyond me.

Blessed partner to a great guy, and mama to 4 amazing kids. Unfortunate target of an irrationally angry IRL stalker.

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. ~ Buddha

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#148 of 150 Old 10-02-2010, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post
The heirarchy has stated time and again that women cannot, and will never, be priests. It cannot be done.

This is a dead horse topic with the media and certain groups insist on dragging out and beating in a public square.
This will never be a dead horse topic as long as there are women who feel the calling to priesthood/the diaconate, and those who support them, "certain groups" and the media nonwithstanding.

With all due respect, P&L - to insist otherwise is to have your head stuck firmly in the sand. You can deny it all you like, but this issue is not going away no matter what the hierarchy states.

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#149 of 150 Old 10-02-2010, 04:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
Really? All?
If you really want to have your stomach turned read a bit about how the Mount Cashel Orphanage "situation" was handled including the allegations that the Vatican liquidated and transferred assets out of Canada to avoid paying the court ordered settlements. There were 300+ victims dating back 40 years before the orphanage was shut down.

Honestly how anyone can say that this is not systemic or is just an "internal matter" is beyond me.

Karen, I'd love to educate myself on the Mount Cashel situation. If you have any particularly helpful articles, books or links, post them or PM me. Thanks so much.
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#150 of 150 Old 10-28-2010, 01:08 AM
 
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http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=8074

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Pope Benedict remarked that St. Bridget’s life demonstrates the importance of women in the Church. As a mother she was “the spiritual center of the family,” as so many women are. Her leadership role in the Church later in life, the Pope observed, shows that “in the great Christian tradition, the dignity of women and their place in the Church is recognized.” He added that “while not overlapping that of the ordained priesthood, they are equally important for the spiritual growth of the community.

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