Vatican Says that Ordaining Women Priests is a Crime Like Sex Abuse of Children - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 150 Old 07-17-2010, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07...ms_ss=facebook

Catholic News Service Story

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New rules the Vatican is expected to issue soon on penalties for priests who sexually abuse children will also put the ordaining of women in the same category of the most serious crimes under church law.
Ordaining women is comparable to sexually abusing children?! SERIOUSLY?

Gadzooks, the Vatican really messed up on this one. Offensive on so many levels.

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#2 of 150 Old 07-18-2010, 04:21 PM
 
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Reading further in the article:

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Pope John Paul's 2001 document distinguished between two types of "most grave crimes," those committed in the celebration of the sacraments and those committed against morals. Among the sacramental crimes were such things as desecration of the Eucharist and violation of the seal of confession.

Under the new revisions, the "attempted ordination of women" will be listed among those crimes, as a serious violation of the sacrament of holy orders, informed sources said. As such, it will be handled under the procedures set up for investigating "delicta graviora" under the control of the doctrinal congregation.
Other items dealt with in the document are things like breaking the seal of confession, with modern technology being a development that needs to be addressed in regards to confession and confidentiality.

So, it's not actually being compared or categorized with sexual abuse. These "crimes" are split into two categories, as explained. The ordination of women would fall under the sacramental category rather than the moral moral one.

Also in the article:
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Vatican officials emphasized that simply because women's ordination was treated in the same document as priestly sex abuse did not mean the two acts were somehow equivalent in the eyes of the church.
Whether one agrees with the decision or not, I do think it's important to make sure all the facts are clearly presented. What you could say in disagreement is that the ordination of women is not comparable to the desecration of the Eucharist. For the purposes of arguments against these rules, that would be a more accurate description of classifications here. You can see details of other "liturgical abuses" HERE. It has nothing at all to do with sexual ethics/morals.
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#3 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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From our parish bulletin (reprinted with permission):

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It really doesn't matter where you stand on the issue of ordaining women as priests, this action by our hierarchal leadership diminishes the absolute evil of pedophilia by marrying it to a non-criminal action that stands in the Biblical, theological and ecclesiological arena. It is also worth noting that the discussion on the ordination of women, while denounced/prohibited by Rome, is not couched in the language of an infallible teaching.
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#4 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 02:58 PM
 
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I think it was a major major PR flaw to have the two linked in any way.

Sadly, it does seem that in the past, the Vatican has viewed women's issues (ordination, "uppity" nuns, abortion) as more serious than the abuse of children.

I mean, just recently an extremely well-respected nun, Sister Margaret McBride, was excommunicated for saving a mother's life by allowing the termination of a pregnancy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/op...27kristof.html

She was excommuniated rather quickly--yet known pedophile priests have remained on-staff for years upon end.

I remember back during the election one Cardinal saying that he would not allow a pro-choice politician communion. (Think it was a Kennedy, but not Edward.) : Yet, priests who abused children not only received communion, but gave it to others... heard confessions...etc.

I know that there are Priests and other Vatican officials who are troubled by pedophile priests... and not just because of the bad PR and financial drain they put on the Church. Sadly, it just seems that they are not in power.

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#5 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 03:07 PM
 
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i am a little in shock at how they worded it. a crime? really? i think that is way over the top to say the least!

i dont think women should be priests. but that is just my view and it is so much more then it look on the top. i have many reasons i think that! and its because women are amazing in so many ways and that i think allowing this would diminish that!

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#6 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by lovebug View Post
i am a little in shock at how they worded it. a crime? really? i think that is way over the top to say the least!

i dont think women should be priests. but that is just my view and it is so much more then it look on the top. i have many reasons i think that! and its because women are amazing in so many ways and that i think allowing this would diminish that!
How so? I'm genuinely curious to know why you feel this way.

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#7 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 05:30 PM
 
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How so? I'm genuinely curious to know why you feel this way.
i dont really want to get into it here on the mothering message board... but in short...

as the bible says the women place is the home (whatever that means to her) and she is the make it or break it for family life. with out a women you cant have a family. she does not need to be tied down that heavy to the church. she need to be free to do what god made her for!

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#8 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 06:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovebug View Post
i dont really want to get into it here on the mothering message board... but in short...

as the bible says the women place is the home (whatever that means to her) and she is the make it or break it for family life. with out a women you cant have a family. she does not need to be tied down that heavy to the church. she need to be free to do what god made her for!
But aren't the women most likely to be ordained already nuns... so they've either committed themselves to a life of celibacy and have never married or have taken orders presumably after the dissolution of a marriage and any children are grown?

I know that those who are against women priests use the 1 Cor argument about women not speaking or teaching in church.

(BTW, there are very traditional Christian Mamas on the board who do believe that women should not be pastors/priests, etc. So, just because some MDC Mamas may seem super liberal non-traditional... there's actually a big mix. It's actually quite nice that women from a variety of religious, socioeconomic, racial, etc. backgrounds all agree on natural parenting. )

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#9 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovebug View Post
i dont really want to get into it here on the mothering message board... but in short...

as the bible says the women place is the home (whatever that means to her) and she is the make it or break it for family life. with out a women you cant have a family. she does not need to be tied down that heavy to the church. she need to be free to do what god made her for!
What if God made her to be a priest? Not being sarcastic either (despite the desire to be as you did just say my family is not a family). Some women do feel a strong, God-given sense that their reason in this world is to their faith (which is why we have nuns) and for some of those women, that feeling may include a strong desire to guide a parish. What about her make her less suited to the job than a man with the same sense of his reason for being here?

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#10 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 07:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by umsami View Post
But aren't the women most likely to be ordained already nuns... so they've either committed themselves to a life of celibacy and have never married or have taken orders presumably after the dissolution of a marriage and any children are grown?

I know that those who are against women priests use the 1 Cor argument about women not speaking or teaching in church.

(BTW, there are very traditional Christian Mamas on the board who do believe that women should not be pastors/priests, etc. So, just because some MDC Mamas may seem super liberal non-traditional... there's actually a big mix. It's actually quite nice that women from a variety of religious, socioeconomic, racial, etc. backgrounds all agree on natural parenting. )
my point was more that i dont like to get into this type of talk on any board. its a topic of HUGE debate and i really dont want to get into it. i have been on mothering for may years and understand the boards well. i choose to come here for other reason and this is just not one of them. i dont have the time to type out everything i think on this topic....
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What if God made her to be a priest? Not being sarcastic either (despite the desire to be as you did just say my family is not a family). Some women do feel a strong, God-given sense that their reason in this world is to their faith (which is why we have nuns) and for some of those women, that feeling may include a strong desire to guide a parish. What about her make her less suited to the job than a man with the same sense of his reason for being here?
did a women carry any of your kiddos? if so then my point still stands... your family is VERY MUCH a family, just like mine is.

i will no be returning to this debate. i dont have the energy to debate this... i still stand by my idea that i agree with the church.

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#11 of 150 Old 07-20-2010, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's a shame you won't discuss this, lovebug. It's an interesting topic, and everyone deserves their opinion.

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Originally Posted by lovebug View Post
i dont really want to get into it here on the mothering message board... but in short...

as the bible says the women place is the home (whatever that means to her) and she is the make it or break it for family life. with out a women you cant have a family. she does not need to be tied down that heavy to the church. she need to be free to do what god made her for!
Remember though, that much of the Christian Scriptures were written in the context of specific cultural teaching purposes; and edited/interpreted by a very patriarchal church. A lot has been omitted, in regard to women.

Counter arguments to your vague citation, also found in Scripture, would include Lydia the seller of purple cloth and the "Ideal Wife" so highly praised in Psalm 31 - certainly no homebody, yet a "worthy wife" and an "unfailing prize" whose "value is far beyond pearls" and whose "children rise up and praise her".

She picks out a field to purchase; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

...

She enjoys the success of her dealings;

...

She reaches out her hands to the poor, and extends her arms to the needy.

...



Mary Magdalene (whose feast day is this week - 7/22 ) is another excellent example. She is acknowledged by the Church as "the first evangelist", the "Apostle to the Apostles"; and most theologians agree that she (among other women) was an active and important disciple of Christ.

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my point was more that i dont like to get into this type of talk on any board. its a topic of HUGE debate and i really dont want to get into it. i have been on mothering for may years and understand the boards well. i choose to come here for other reason and this is just not one of them. i dont have the time to type out everything i think on this topic....

did a women carry any of your kiddos? if so then my point still stands... your family is VERY MUCH a family, just like mine is.

i will no be returning to this debate. i dont have the energy to debate this... i still stand by my idea that i agree with the church.
If you're talking about the reproduction side, than your logic still doesn't fit because you need a man to reproduce too... So should men not be ordained as priests? Or only the ones willing to live a celibate life? What about women willing to live a celibate life? I mean, for centuries priests haven't been allowed to marry, so the family aspect isn't even an issue. One would assume that a female priest would need to follow to same rules as the male priest including no marriage and no sex.

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It really doesn't matter where you stand on the issue of ordaining women as priests, this action by our hierarchal leadership diminishes the absolute evil of pedophilia by marrying it to a non-criminal action that stands in the Biblical, theological and ecclesiological arena. It is also worth noting that the discussion on the ordination of women, while denounced/prohibited by Rome, is not couched in the language of an infallible teaching.
I am a recent convert and I was so dismayed to see the two issues joined. Obviously both are grave matters. The ordination of women into the priesthood challenges the doctrines dictating the requirements for the sacrament of Holy Orders.

However, the degradation and abuse of children by priests is so unbelievably unacceptable and horrifying and the Church should make firm proclamations about just that issue and leave other issues out of it. For those looking in from the outside who have almost no knowledge of Church history and theology the idea that the two could be equated is shocking.

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What if God made her to be a priest? Not being sarcastic either (despite the desire to be as you did just say my family is not a family). Some women do feel a strong, God-given sense that their reason in this world is to their faith (which is why we have nuns) and for some of those women, that feeling may include a strong desire to guide a parish. What about her make her less suited to the job than a man with the same sense of his reason for being here?
I just have to clarify something. We don't have nuns because women aren't "allowed" to be priests. We have nuns because these women are called to the religious life by God. Their vocation is the religious life. There are many men called to religious life who are brothers, not priests. The priesthood is the priesthood, consecrated religious life is consecrated religious life. Two very different vocations.

The Magisterium has repeatedly stated that women are not called to the priesthood ever since Jesus chose his apostles. It is not up to individual priests to attempt to ordain women, and this is what the Vatican is talking about. This is a very serious matter, and will be treated as such. It is unfortunate they haven't been as strident with other matters, but it doesn't change the significance of this one.

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I am a recent convert and I was so dismayed to see the two issues joined. Obviously both are grave matters. The ordination of women into the priesthood challenges the doctrines dictating the requirements for the sacrament of Holy Orders.

However, the degradation and abuse of children by priests is so unbelievably unacceptable and horrifying and the Church should make firm proclamations about just that issue and leave other issues out of it. For those looking in from the outside who have almost no knowledge of Church history and theology the idea that the two could be equated is shocking.
I'm not sure if you were referring to yourself, but this is an awesome book on Church history, if you are interested.

moonshoes - Just wanted to clarify that a true, spiritual "calling" is a personal & individual gift, and not something that can be regulated or dismissed by anyone, including the Magesterium.

Also, the office of Deacon is an ordained one. Scripture makes reference to at least one female deacon - Phoebe - so common sense would tell us that there were certainly female leaders in the early church (and, for the record, there were NO priests in the early years of the Catholic Church).

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I'm not sure if you were referring to yourself, but this is an awesome book on Church history, if you are interested.
No, I wasn't referring to myself. I wouldn't have converted if I hadn't studied the Church and its theology pretty thoroughly!

My friends and family are not very knowledgable though, and I got a lot of emails this week concerned about how I could be a member of a church who equated the sexual abuse of children with the ordination of females.

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Am I crazy, or am I just the only one that saw that this document does not "join" the two issues or compare them, but deals with a number of different issues, in two distinct and seperate categories, one moral, and one liturgical?
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I'm not sure if you were referring to yourself, but this is an awesome book on Church history, if you are interested.

moonshoes - Just wanted to clarify that a true, spiritual "calling" is a personal & individual gift, and not something that can be regulated or dismissed by anyone, including the Magesterium.

Also, the office of Deacon is an ordained one. Scripture makes reference to at least one female deacon - Phoebe - so common sense would tell us that there were certainly female leaders in the early church (and, for the record, there were NO priests in the early years of the Catholic Church).
Well, that is one interpretation, however, as Catholics we are to submit to the authority of the Magisterium and it has decreed that women are not to be ordained. Period. We are called to our vocations by God, not the Magisterium, but God has given the Church authority on earth. Whether or not we agree with it's decisions, we can't just go around doing whatever we want.

I agree there were female deacons in the early Church. I agree the priesthood evolved over time. Don't see what it has to do with the subject. Will women eventually be ordained to the priesthood? Maybe. Maybe not. But we can't just go around ordaining women. That is what this is about.

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Am I crazy, or am I just the only one that saw that this document does not "join" the two issues or compare them, but deals with a number of different issues, in two distinct and seperate categories, one moral, and one liturgical?
no, you are not crazy. You are correct.

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#20 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So, it's not actually being compared or categorized with sexual abuse. These "crimes" are split into two categories, as explained. The ordination of women would fall under the sacramental category rather than the moral moral one.
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... this document does not "join" the two issues or compare them, but deals with a number of different issues, in two distinct and seperate categories, one moral, and one liturgical
With all due respect, I must disagree. The fact that they are categorized as "liturgical" abuses vs. "moral" abuses does not diminsh the fact that they are both considered a CRIME of equal standing in the Church.

From the CNS article:

Quote:
it will include the "attempted ordination of women" among the list of most serious crimes against church law, or "delicta graviora,"
I guess it's a POV thing. I support women's ordination, so I find it highly offensive when it's called a "crime" and compared in ANY way to sexual abuse/pedophilia. And,

Quote:
this action ... diminishes the absolute evil of pedophilia
which is offensive to victims of such, and their families.

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I just have to clarify something. We don't have nuns because women aren't "allowed" to be priests. We have nuns because these women are called to the religious life by God. Their vocation is the religious life. There are many men called to religious life who are brothers, not priests. The priesthood is the priesthood, consecrated religious life is consecrated religious life. Two very different vocations.
So women just don't feel the call to priesthood? Isn't it possibly that a woman who felt the call to serve the church settled for being a nun because her true calling wasn't recognized by the church based on her gender? That they are two different vocations doesn't mean that they have two different basis. They both are based in a desire to serve God. The only difference in the basis is that women can't become priests. I am sure there are nuns out there who would have chosen priesthood if it had been an option but because of their faith in the church and in God they didn't try and fight it.

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So women just don't feel the call to priesthood?
I would have to assume that the Vatican's position is, "Just ignore it, and it'll go away. Or become a nun."

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#23 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 05:51 PM
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First of all, be careful about what you read in the media. As some previous posters have pointed out, I think that the link between these two sins (by the Catholic definition of sin. I realize that not everyone believes that they are sins) as expressed by the Vatican is a much weaker link than the media claims was expressed by the Vatican. They are both considered to be serious sins, mortal sins with full knowledge and consent. This means that they both cross a line, but it does not imply that they are both equal. Some other serious sins in the Catholic understanding are missing Mass on Sunday (without a good reason such as illness) and genocide, but those are by no means equal. They are both past the line that constitutes grave matter, and if committed with full knowledge and consent, both would require confession in order to be brought back into communion with the Church. (How many people willfully miss Mass one Sunday and go to communion the next with no confession in between is another matter. Nobody keeps track to enforce it, but the teaching stands.)

As far as the ordination of women goes, the Church has a firm stance, and I really don't understand why so many non-Catholics are so interested in changing it. Certainly, there are Catholic women who feel like they are called to the priesthood, but the Catholic Church teaches that women are not called to the priesthood and that a woman who feels called to the priesthood is misinterpreting her vocation. Certainly, there are nuns who became nuns because they couldn't be priests, but most nuns become nuns because they felt a unique call to serve God through a religious life that is different than the priesthood. Many men also serve God through a vocation to religious life but do not become priests.

Catholics are asked to be obedient to Church teaching, but nobody is forced to be Catholic. There are many other Christian denominations, not-Christian communities, and other spiritual paths out there available to people who are sure that the Catholic Church is wrong. Many members of Catholic churches agree with most of what the Church teaches but disagree with or don't understand certain points. As Catholics, we may disagree on many things. We may petition the pope himself, but while a moral guidance stands, we are asked to be obedient.

I understand that many people on this forum have a wide range of beliefs on a number of topics. You may not understand the Church's teachings and may seek understanding. You may not agree with the Church's teachings and choose not to be Catholic or to be Catholic and obedient while you seek understanding or petition for change (though you are unlikely to get it). But please, please try to be respectful of the fact that there are people who actually believe these teachings. I thought the RS forum was for seeking understanding, not for debating the merits of one faith over another.
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#24 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 06:21 PM
 
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As far as the ordination of women goes, the Church has a firm stance, and I really don't understand why so many non-Catholics are so interested in changing it.
I live in a country that prohibits discrimination based on gender. This should apply to the church as well, and the fact that the church does not abide by the laws of our government makes it open to commentary, whether I am Catholic or not.

I also live in a province where the Catholic school system is publicly funded and so the fact that this discrimination is taught and sanctioned using my tax dollars is offensive to me on multiple levels.

Finally I think the ordination of women would go a long LONG way to limiting the crimes committed by some in the priesthood against children and the absolutely unforgivable way it is STILL handled by the church.

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#25 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 07:17 PM
 
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As far as the ordination of women goes, the Church has a firm stance, and I really don't understand why so many non-Catholics are so interested in changing it. Certainly, there are Catholic women who feel like they are called to the priesthood, but the Catholic Church teaches that women are not called to the priesthood and that a woman who feels called to the priesthood is misinterpreting her vocation. Certainly, there are nuns who became nuns because they couldn't be priests, but most nuns become nuns because they felt a unique call to serve God through a religious life that is different than the priesthood. Many men also serve God through a vocation to religious life but do not become priests.

Catholics are asked to be obedient to Church teaching, but nobody is forced to be Catholic. There are many other Christian denominations, not-Christian communities, and other spiritual paths out there available to people who are sure that the Catholic Church is wrong. Many members of Catholic churches agree with most of what the Church teaches but disagree with or don't understand certain points. As Catholics, we may disagree on many things. We may petition the pope himself, but while a moral guidance stands, we are asked to be obedient.
For me it has to do with this idea that the church apparently knows more about what any one woman is feeling than the woman herself. And it's not just non-catholics that think this should change, DH is a catholic who feels the same as I do, that no institution can know what some woman halfway across the world feels or that she is misinterpreting what she feels. Who are any of us to say she is wrong.

I also have a problem with blind obedience, which is what I see this as, and the catholic church asking for it but that is another topic.

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#26 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 08:58 PM
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I live in a country that prohibits discrimination based on gender. This should apply to the church as well, and the fact that the church does not abide by the laws of our government makes it open to commentary, whether I am Catholic or not.

I also live in a province where the Catholic school system is publicly funded and so the fact that this discrimination is taught and sanctioned using my tax dollars is offensive to me on multiple levels.

Finally I think the ordination of women would go a long LONG way to limiting the crimes committed by some in the priesthood against children and the absolutely unforgivable way it is STILL handled by the church.
With all respect to your opinion, as a woman, I do not feel discriminated against by the Church. Catholicism presents a different world view with different definitions of freedom and equality than what is generally understood in secular culture. We believe that men and women are different spiritually as well as physically. This difference does not mean that one is better than the other, just that there are different roles that they hold in the Body of Christ.

I live in a country that makes it illegal for the government to interfere in religious matters, and while I have experienced non-Catholics complaining about what the Catholic Church teaches all my life, it has always puzzled me since these people don't have to be Catholic if they don't like it. I think that your taxes funding Catholic schools is another issue. Here in the US, the same laws that keep the government from interfering with what religions teach keep the government from funding religious educational institutions. I also get offended when my government funds things that I don't agree with.

If you believe you have a right and a responsibility even to criticize the Catholic Church and to try to change it, then I respect that, but I would appeal to MDC's Religious Studies forum guidelines and ask that you be respectful of another person's beliefs while on this forum.

I can agree with you that there have been and probably in some cases still are ways that individuals in the Church hierarchy have mishandled the sex crimes against children. I believe that every person who committed any crime should face the consequences according to the law. I assure you that participating in the abuse of children with full knowledge and consent would certainly constitute mortal sin, and any person, priest or otherwise, who committed such an act would not be in full communion with the Church (even without a formal excommunication) until they returned to confession.

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For me it has to do with this idea that the church apparently knows more about what any one woman is feeling than the woman herself. And it's not just non-catholics that think this should change, DH is a catholic who feels the same as I do, that no institution can know what some woman halfway across the world feels or that she is misinterpreting what she feels. Who are any of us to say she is wrong.

I also have a problem with blind obedience, which is what I see this as, and the catholic church asking for it but that is another topic.
Hmm... I don't think that the Church knows more about what one woman is feeling than she does herself. I think that in some cases, the Church knows more about what God is thinking than an individual man or woman. I know men as well who have been turned away from the priesthood because the Church hierarchy does not see a vocation there, men and women who have been turned away from religious orders that they felt called to, and couples who have been denied Catholic marriages (as I am assuming you have, really not trying to get personal or to judge you, just to state the reality in the Catholic Church) because of defined impediments.

I understand that many Catholics believe that this should change. As I listed in my above post, it is up to those Catholics to decide what to do about it. If someone feels that their true vocation is not recognized by the Catholic Church, they can choose to stay and petition the Church for a change that they are unlikely to get, they can choose to be obedient and try to find another vocation, they can choose to be disobedient in protest of the Church's teachings (knowing that they may be incurring excommunication on themselves, just as any act of civil disobedience may carry with it a consequence), or they may choose to leave the Church in favor of another spiritual path that fits better with their philosophy.

I personally do not feel blindly obedient to the Church. Perhaps there are some people who are blindly obedient, but I think it is unfair to categorize Catholics who agree with Church teaching as being blindly obedient. Personally, I have questioned teaching after teaching in the Church. I have had question after question about theology and morality, and some of my questions have taken years to answer, but all the important ones in my mind and heart have been answered for me in a way that I understand and accept. I have developed a trust in my Mother Church so that if she teaches something, I'd guess that it's probably right, and I would be obedient while I seek understanding unless I thought that what I was being asked to do was really wrong, but that has never happened. I did not come by this trust because I wanted it. I came by it because I questioned, I fought, I disobeyed, and I suffered the consequences... not imposed consequences but natural consequences for my actions. My relationship with God and those I loved the most suffered. Now I know the Church was right. I am no longer blind. Now I see, and I am (imperfectly) obedient.

ETA: Thanks for the friendly discussion, all! This is challenging and interesting. I like hearing all of your points of view even if I disagree with them. Just trying to keep it friendly.
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#27 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 09:19 PM
 
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So basically the options are to be part of the church or not be part of the church? See that is a huge problem I have, not everyone who is catholic is going to have the same beliefs as some guy in the Vatican.

Like I said previously, DH is catholic (for the record we never bothered even trying to get a catholic wedding because I am not catholic), but there are a few key issues he disagrees with. Same-sex relationships, and women as priests are two of them. But the basis for the religion, he does believe. Not just the Jesus, Christian God, parts but parts that separate Catholicism from other branches of Christianity. I don't think it's fare that he was basically told by the last church he attended the same as what you're saying, if you don't believe what we say then get out. Because he spent a great deal of time looking for answers to his feelings and also believe that God wants him to accept himself as he is, which according to the Catholic church isn't possible because God hates sin and homosexuality is a sin. He follows his religion with the belief that God, not man, is the one who decides what is right for a person. Which is ultimately why he also agrees with the consecration of female priests, because they are the only ones who truly know what God wants of them, and the church doesn't have the power to override God's choice.

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#28 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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First of all, be careful about what you read in the media. As some previous posters have pointed out, I think that the link between these two sins (by the Catholic definition of sin. I realize that not everyone believes that they are sins) as expressed by the Vatican is a much weaker link than the media claims was expressed by the Vatican.
What I quoted above was from Catholic News Service. Perhaps our perception of what is being expressed by the Vatican differs.

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As far as the ordination of women goes, the Church has a firm stance, and I really don't understand why so many non-Catholics are so interested in changing it.
I'm a practicing Catholic, a youth minister, and a commissioned lay ecclesial minister who is actively interested in changing this stance.

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I understand that many people on this forum have a wide range of beliefs on a number of topics. You may not understand the Church's teachings and may seek understanding. You may not agree with the Church's teachings and choose not to be Catholic or to be Catholic and obedient while you seek understanding or petition for change (though you are unlikely to get it).
Or - by your definition of "obedient" - one can be Catholic and disobedient, choosing to be Catholic while disagreeing with certain Church teachings.

I prefer to say disagreeable. I have no problem with Catholics who disagree with doctrines that have no solid Scriptural, historical, or theological basis. The "just because we said so" argument simply doesn't hold water for many Catholics, anymore.

Unless my diocese is an anomaly, there are way more "disobedient" Catholics seeking petition for change than you are acknowledging here.

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But please, please try to be respectful of the fact that there are people who actually believe these teachings. I thought the RS forum was for seeking understanding, not for debating the merits of one faith over another.
I am certainly respectful of my fellow Catholic brothers and sisters who choose absolute adherence to the Magisterium. However, I reserve the right to utilize the RS forum for
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academic discussion
(per the forum guidelines), and I will
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uphold [the] discussion with the utmost respect and consideration for participants and readers
After all,

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This is where the tough questions may be asked.

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

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#29 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 11:03 PM
 
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All that happened is that they made a bunch of changes and amendments to their ecclesiastical rules at the same time. Some are about moral issues, others about Church discipline.

Since the document actually specifically says that they do not equate the two, it seems very disingenuous to present it as if they do without the disclaimer.

Who is called to the priesthood has little to do with a "feeling". People get rejected all the time for all kinds of reasons.

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#30 of 150 Old 07-22-2010, 11:08 PM
 
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All that happened is that they made a bunch of changes and amendments to their ecclesiastical rules at the same time. Some are about moral issues, others about Church discipline.

Since the document actually specifically says that they do not equate the two, it seems very disingenuous to present it as if they do without the disclaimer.

Who is called to the priesthood has little to do with a "feeling". People get rejected all the time for all kinds of reasons.
Being called to priesthood is a feeling, a sense that it is one's reason for being placed on the earth.

Getting rejected for it is based not on feelings but on the assessment of those in charge of hiring the priests. No doubt they have a good reason for rejecting most of those who feel called to the priesthood, however rejection based on gender is not a valid reason according to a number of Catholics.

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