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#31 of 39 Old 11-03-2010, 09:38 PM
 
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Isn't there some clotting factor... thing... that makes circing on the eighth day safer? I read that somewhere. I definitely wouldn't say it was less painful - current research indicates newborns feel pain more intensely than older people, not less.


Would it be relevant? If the command was to circ on the eighth day, a baby who died on the seventh would have fulfilled all the laws required of him at that age (or technically, required of his father, but you know what I mean). Surely he would have just the same status as an uncircumcised Jewish girl - he wasn't meant to be circumcised at that point, so there'd be no issue?
As far as I can see from what I have found on the net, an uncircumcised baby is still Jewish. Though it seems that babies that die very early are not treated quite the same way as older babies or adults, but that is even after they are circumcised.

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#32 of 39 Old 11-03-2010, 09:49 PM
 
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Oh yeah, definitely still Jewish - if the mother's Jewish the baby is. If the baby wasn't circumcised when he should be, that would mean the father hadn't fulfilled his mitzvot, but it would have no effect on the baby's status in any way. Although I'd be interested to hear if he'd be expected to agree to circ later, like a new convert to Judaism?

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#33 of 39 Old 11-03-2010, 10:07 PM
 
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Oh yeah, definitely still Jewish - if the mother's Jewish the baby is. If the baby wasn't circumcised when he should be, that would mean the father hadn't fulfilled his mitzvot, but it would have no effect on the baby's status in any way. Although I'd be interested to hear if he'd be expected to agree to circ later, like a new convert to Judaism?
I think so. Actually, one of the resources I found said that if an uncircumcised Jewish man died, he could be circumcised before burial.

But in any case, I'm not sure that there is a clear conception in Judaism about what happens after death, including to a Jew vs a non-Jew. I have heard a variety of Jewish interpretations on the topic, and in some cases, it seem that there isn't much of an idea of an afterlife anyway. As far as the OT writers, I'm not sure what the Jewish POV(s) on that were then, and it covers a pretty broad time period.

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#34 of 39 Old 11-21-2010, 04:41 PM
 
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Here is my take. I don't believe God ever commanded circumcision or any other thing associated with sacrifice. If God wanted circumcision boys would have been born that way. If there was any kind of circumcision that God wanted it would have been circumcision of the heart. I believe this was one of the things Jesus taught. He taught God was interested in love and mercy and not sacrifice. It is not that the coming of Jesus changed the rules but rather enlightment to greater understanding of the nature of God.

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#35 of 39 Old 11-21-2010, 05:25 PM
 
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Here is my take. I don't believe God ever commanded circumcision or any other thing associated with sacrifice. If God wanted circumcision boys would have been born that way. If there was any kind of circumcision that God wanted it would have been circumcision of the heart. I believe this was one of the things Jesus taught. He taught God was interested in love and mercy and not sacrifice. It is not that the coming of Jesus changed the rules but rather enlightment to greater understanding of the nature of God.



So you only accept the NT writings?


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#36 of 39 Old 11-21-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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In the KJV of the Bible there are versus in The New Testament that clearly state circ is no longer required like in The Old Testament. Some things that where the law in the Old Testament changed with the laws in the New Testament and circ is one of those.

Which ever way the man is when God calls him to be saved he should stay that way. It just dosnt matter either way as long as you keep the commandments of God.

I Corinthians 7 v18-20
V18, Is any man called being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? Let him not be circumcised. (If he is saved when not circed then he shouldnt become circed)
V19, Cicrumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. (Either way is fine as long as you follow God)
V20, Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. (However you are when you are called to serve God then stay that way)



Romans 2 v26
V26, Therefore if the uncircumcision kepth the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcsion be counted for circumcision?



Here is says plainly that it dosnt matter as long as you believe in Jesus.

Galatians 5 v6-15
V6, For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
V15, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncricumcision, but a new creature.


Christ is in all no matter what their state of being or nationality.

Colossians 3 v11V11, Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 
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#37 of 39 Old 11-21-2010, 06:27 PM
 
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Here is my take. I don't believe God ever commanded circumcision or any other thing associated with sacrifice. If God wanted circumcision boys would have been born that way. If there was any kind of circumcision that God wanted it would have been circumcision of the heart. I believe this was one of the things Jesus taught. He taught God was interested in love and mercy and not sacrifice. It is not that the coming of Jesus changed the rules but rather enlightment to greater understanding of the nature of God.



So you only accept the NT writings?


I would just say they are more closer to the highests truths. I was raised Catholic but I don't believe any religion really has all the answers. I believe more in the path of inner awareness and personal communion with God instead of the concept of "and so says the lord". A lot of people in recent times have been in the presence of God whether through deep meditation or a near death experience and universally what they learned was God was not interested in theology or religion but was only interested in people loving others. It is my belief this is how it has always been and that neither circumcision or any kind of sacrifice was ever required. A god of unconditional love does not require anything. Circumcision in my opinion came from men.

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#38 of 39 Old 11-21-2010, 06:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasL View Post

Here is my take. I don't believe God ever commanded circumcision or any other thing associated with sacrifice. If God wanted circumcision boys would have been born that way. If there was any kind of circumcision that God wanted it would have been circumcision of the heart. I believe this was one of the things Jesus taught. He taught God was interested in love and mercy and not sacrifice. It is not that the coming of Jesus changed the rules but rather enlightment to greater understanding of the nature of God.



So you only accept the NT writings?


I would just say they are more closer to the highests truths. I was raised Catholic but I don't believe any religion really has all the answers. I believe more in the path of inner awareness and personal communion with God instead of the concept of "and so says the lord". A lot of people in recent times have been in the presence of God whether through deep meditation or a near death experience and universally what they learned was God was not interested in theology or religion but was only interested in people loving others. It is my belief this is how it has always been and that neither circumcision or any kind of sacrifice was ever required. A god of unconditional love does not require anything. Circumcision in my opinion came from men.


I agree with the part about God not being interested in theology or religion.  However, in the NT Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and so did the disciples, even unto death.  Maybe you are referring to a different kind of sacrifice.  Also, I find loving others to be a sacrifice.  The sacrifice of self, which is what the Lord asked of us...you know, deny your soul-life... 


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#39 of 39 Old 11-21-2010, 07:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasL View Post

Here is my take. I don't believe God ever commanded circumcision or any other thing associated with sacrifice. If God wanted circumcision boys would have been born that way. If there was any kind of circumcision that God wanted it would have been circumcision of the heart. I believe this was one of the things Jesus taught. He taught God was interested in love and mercy and not sacrifice. It is not that the coming of Jesus changed the rules but rather enlightment to greater understanding of the nature of God.



So you only accept the NT writings?


I would just say they are more closer to the highests truths. I was raised Catholic but I don't believe any religion really has all the answers. I believe more in the path of inner awareness and personal communion with God instead of the concept of "and so says the lord". A lot of people in recent times have been in the presence of God whether through deep meditation or a near death experience and universally what they learned was God was not interested in theology or religion but was only interested in people loving others. It is my belief this is how it has always been and that neither circumcision or any kind of sacrifice was ever required. A god of unconditional love does not require anything. Circumcision in my opinion came from men.


I agree with the part about God not being interested in theology or religion.  However, in the NT Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and so did the disciples, even unto death.  Maybe you are referring to a different kind of sacrifice.  Also, I find loving others to be a sacrifice.  The sacrifice of self, which is what the Lord asked of us...you know, deny your soul-life... 


I believe what has been written can be interpretted in different ways or have metaphoric meanings. For those disciples and Jesus the sacrifices they made was at their own free will and was probably something they chose before coming to earth. As for Jesus the greatest sacrifice was not his death because if anything it released him from the physical world but it was his choosing to leave the perfect world and come to earth knowing he would be hated and suffer a violent death was his ultimate sacrifice. He was one of many masters to do this and it was done out of love knowing it would bring upliftment.


 

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