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#31 of 48 Old 03-17-2011, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Gosh how did I miss this thread. This is something we have been struggling with. I have an autoimmune diseasethat  untreated I am unable to function. I am bedridden and unable to move. It is a struggle to use the bathroom let alone take care of my kids. There are several drugs out there to treat my PsA. All have failed except the high danger drugs for pregnancy. The ones I am on now it has a 100% chance that is 1-0-0 that the baby will die. Most died in the womb none have lived more then an hour after being born if they make it that far. It has a high mother mortality rate also something like 45%. The other drug I  has this incredible high birth defect rate also. Where does that leave me? If I do not take the drugs, I cannot parent my own children. If I do take the drug and get pregnant I have signed the death warrant for my child.

 

It leaves you following very strict rules with NFP so that you can take the appropriate medication and care for your children.

I would suggest either Creighton or Billings rather than STM
 

 


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#32 of 48 Old 03-17-2011, 09:00 PM
 
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Actually NFP is not an option. It is too high of a gamble. 100% death for the baby and over 40% for me. I have gotten pregnant 9 days after ovulation. My numbers were sound even if my numbers were not sound (which they were) that brings me right back to square 1.


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#33 of 48 Old 03-17-2011, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Actually NFP is not an option. It is too high of a gamble. 100% death for the baby and over 40% for me. I have gotten pregnant 9 days after ovulation. My numbers were sound even if my numbers were not sound (which they were) that brings me right back to square 1.



Then I honestly don't know.  That is something to take up with a good Orthodox priest and, perhaps, a canon lawyer.


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#34 of 48 Old 03-18-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.


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#35 of 48 Old 03-18-2011, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.



I am sorry. I have been neither patient nor loving.

I wish I had an answer for you, I really do.

 

If you are on facebook, come over to the NFP group, maybe someone there will have a better chance to help you.


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#36 of 48 Old 03-18-2011, 07:46 PM
 
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I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.


I'd trust NFP more, too, honestly. What about phase one BD only?

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 100% death for the baby and over 40% for me. 


Seriously, is this not a situation in which sterilization can be considered therapeutic? A woman can justify a hysterectomy if she has cervical cancer, even if one of the side effects is that she can no longer conceive. What about a hysterectomy or tubal ligation to save her life and the lives of any future children, and allow her to be safely treated for a serious medical condition? It is not as if there is any alternative which would not be disastrous for her or her family. 

 



 
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#38 of 48 Old 03-19-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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Seriously, is this not a situation in which sterilization can be considered therapeutic? A woman can justify a hysterectomy if she has cervical cancer, even if one of the side effects is that she can no longer conceive. What about a hysterectomy or tubal ligation to save her life and the lives of any future children, and allow her to be safely treated for a serious medical condition? It is not as if there is any alternative which would not be disastrous for her or her family. 

 




I am not a canon lawyer or an expert on this, but I would theorize that the answer would be no. Her reproductive organs are not diseased in this case, so sterilizing her would not be permissible.

With cervical cancer, the uterus needs to be removed to keep the cancer from spreading. You're actually treating the disease and keeping it from spreading by removing the reproductive organs. The primary purpose is not sterilization.

In her case, the primary purpose would be sterilization and not treatment of her actual disease. The correct choice (again, IM layperson's O) would be strict NFP or abstinence. If the odds are truly 100% death for child, 40% chance for mom, I would think abstinence might be the better course.

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#39 of 48 Old 03-21-2011, 01:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.




I'd trust NFP more, too, honestly. What about phase one BD only?


what is phase one BD only?


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the marital act during phase one only

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#41 of 48 Old 03-21-2011, 06:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

Gosh how did I miss this thread. This is something we have been struggling with. I have an autoimmune diseasethat  untreated I am unable to function. I am bedridden and unable to move. It is a struggle to use the bathroom let alone take care of my kids. There are several drugs out there to treat my PsA. All have failed except the high danger drugs for pregnancy. The ones I am on now it has a 100% chance that is 1-0-0 that the baby will die. Most died in the womb none have lived more then an hour after being born if they make it that far. It has a high mother mortality rate also something like 45%. The other drug I  has this incredible high birth defect rate also. Where does that leave me? If I do not take the drugs, I cannot parent my own children. If I do take the drug and get pregnant I have signed the death warrant for my child.


If this were me, I would have no qualms whatsoever about enacting some permanent method of BC.  This is an extreme situation, and your family needs you to be there for them.  Your marriage needs the God-given gift of unity in a sexual relationship, so IMO permanent abstinence is not the answer either.
 

I'm sorry that you are faced with such a tough decision.  I pray that Our Father will bless you with the wisdom of His Spirit to guide and comfort you.


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#42 of 48 Old 03-22-2011, 08:27 AM
 
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Thanks Trigger. I struggle with the whole thing. I think if I wasn't even Catholic I would struggle. I am 99% sure our family is complete. Three of my children have JIA and one has a whole host of medical issues. It is really hard to keep up with life right now. But there is part of me that says really that door to having more children is closed? Never mind the fact that I am in my 40's. We have not rushed out and done anything yet. I guess maybe I need to mourn. I know I could never ever forgive myself if I got pregnant and harm came to that baby.


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Thanks Trigger. I struggle with the whole thing. I think if I wasn't even Catholic I would struggle. I am 99% sure our family is complete. Three of my children have JIA and one has a whole host of medical issues. It is really hard to keep up with life right now. But there is part of me that says really that door to having more children is closed? Never mind the fact that I am in my 40's. We have not rushed out and done anything yet. I guess maybe I need to mourn. I know I could never ever forgive myself if I got pregnant and harm came to that baby.


I totally understand your fears about harm coming to your child.  One thing to consider, though, is the fact that if you do become pregnant and the child dies, there is still blessing in that your baby goes straight to Heaven to be with God.  In some ways that is even more blessed than spending a lifetime on Earth waiting for that glorious moment.  When considering such difficult situations we really must think not only about the consequences of our actions on this Earth, but more so the eternal implications of our decisions.

 

I am sure that if you did have a child who died so young, billions of years from now while you are enjoying the delights of eternity together, that child will not be wondering why you allowed his existence when his time on the Earth was so short.  In fact, I think it would be just the opposite.  Some food for thought....

 

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#44 of 48 Old 06-28-2011, 10:02 PM
 
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 Yes, well ... this point works well to Church leadership, also.  The Church hierarchy certainly can - and has, I believe - also fall prey to prideful ignorance and apathy toward the Holy Spirit.  This is not only a problem with the laity and non-ordained.

 

 

 

But they have, and do ... that is, after all, why we have a celibate priesthood.

 

 

 

In that vein - How will the hierarchy of our Church account for THEIR sins, and for what THOSE SINS and lies have done to faithful Christians?  RC Christians have been leaving the Church in droves for decades due to the scandals, lies, cover-ups, finger-pointing, misinformation, and poor leadership at every level of the Church.

 

Howzabout we ALL take some blame here, for a change?  Only then will our Church begin to recover, and to flourish as it should.

 

 


I have to say I find a lot of assumptions in your post. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church is flourishing right now as we speak. Let's remember Holy Mother Church exists for all God's children across the world. She is growing all around the world, and even here in the United States. Where have people left the Church "in droves" as you say? How do you define a drove? yes, white folks in the statse have been leaving the Church since the 60s. I would wager that the fact that the youth have not been properly catechized for two generations whilst living in a secular world filled with Satan's lures have contributed more to their leaving than any "scandals, lies, cover-ups, et cetera" at every level of the Church.
 

Prideful ignorance and apathy to the Holy Spirit???!!! That is a prideful statement in and of itself.


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#45 of 48 Old 06-28-2011, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

Thanks Trigger. I struggle with the whole thing. I think if I wasn't even Catholic I would struggle. I am 99% sure our family is complete. Three of my children have JIA and one has a whole host of medical issues. It is really hard to keep up with life right now. But there is part of me that says really that door to having more children is closed? Never mind the fact that I am in my 40's. We have not rushed out and done anything yet. I guess maybe I need to mourn. I know I could never ever forgive myself if I got pregnant and harm came to that baby.



Please pray on this and involve your priest if you can. Allow God to let you know what you should do. Discern His will for you and all will be well. Be at peace. Praying for you.

 


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#46 of 48 Old 07-04-2011, 10:36 AM
 
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(from the original post quoting the Catechism)2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

 

 

I would like to add something that I don't believe has been discussed on this thread, namely celibacy in marriage. There is a strong tradition of celibacy in the Catholic Church, monks and nuns, and of course, the priesthood. (some could argue that it has not always been so amongst the priesthood, but that is not beside the point right now.) Celibacy can often be a way to subjugate our sexual desires for a greater cause, such as becoming closer to God. I would argue this is also possible, and indeeds at time beneficial, within a marriage. It is a fallacy of the secular culture that sex is the most necessary and important part of a marriage. In fact, it is communion with God which is most important. My husband and I have been together for over 20 years and we have had many periods of celibacy during that time. I believe this has greatly benefited our relationship.

 

When we are celibate, we are talking more and that is always a good thing:) I am usually not ready for sex for a long time after I give birth, and my husband accepts this. The idea that men "need" sex more than women is a cultural myth. We are all able to control our sexual desires to the extent that we are willing to do so. I think people miss this essential point of Church teaching. We are to give ourselves totally to the other, and sometimes that means putting others before our own needs and wants. When a woman is not available to a man sexually (or viceversa) she is not a sexual object to him. She is a person. It requires a lot of closeness on the part of the couple to make a marriage work, and I believe that once I fully understood the Church's teachings my marriage was so much stronger.


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I would like to add something that I don't believe has been discussed on this thread, namely celibacy in marriage.

 

Actually, I believe it has been discussed here. 

 

 

 

Quote:

 There is a strong tradition of celibacy in the Catholic Church, monks and nuns, and of course, the priesthood. (some could argue that it has not always been so amongst the priesthood,

 

And rightly so, because it hasn't.  And the original reasons for the institution of priestly celibacy really had nothing to do with "being closer to God".

 

 

 

 

Quote:

It is a fallacy of the secular culture that sex is the most necessary and important part of a marriage.  

 

Not THE most necessary and important part, no; but a necessary and important part nonetheless, as explained by the article posted somewhere in this thread.  Besides which, I think you are making a huge assumption.  Even a secular marriage counselor will tell you that sex is not the be-all, end-all in a marriage; rather, one vital marriage element that co-exists with others - each element in conjunction with all to sustain and strengthen the marriage bond.

 

While I agree that, for one reason or another, periods of celibacy may be good and even necessary in a marriage, I'm not at all certain that (barring an outright physical inability to have sex) deciding to live "as brother and sister"/celibate for life is a healthy decision for a marriage.  I do believe that marriage needs the physical unity of a sexual relationship in order to grow and thrive.  I believe that we were created to have this physically unitive relationship, and to enjoy it's pleasures (physical, emotional, spiritual).

 

I think that you are confusing the secular notion that sex, in and of itself, is deemed so important.


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#48 of 48 Old 07-05-2011, 02:58 PM
 
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Not THE most necessary and important part, no; but a necessary and important part nonetheless, as explained by the article posted somewhere in this thread.  Besides which, I think you are making a huge assumption.  Even a secular marriage counselor will tell you that sex is not the be-all, end-all in a marriage; rather, one vital marriage element that co-exists with others - each element in conjunction with all to sustain and strengthen the marriage bond.

 

While I agree that, for one reason or another, periods of celibacy may be good and even necessary in a marriage, I'm not at all certain that (barring an outright physical inability to have sex) deciding to live "as brother and sister"/celibate for life is a healthy decision for a marriage.  I do believe that marriage needs the physical unity of a sexual relationship in order to grow and thrive.  I believe that we were created to have this physically unitive relationship, and to enjoy it's pleasures (physical, emotional, spiritual).

 

I think that you are confusing the secular notion that sex, in and of itself, is deemed so important.



(my bolding) The first huge assumption is made on your part, namely, that I am advocating celibacy within marriage, and that being celibate in a marital context means living a sister and brother. That is clearly not what I said. I also did not say that it is for life, I said periods of celibacy.

 

I don't know any brothers and sisters that spoon, cuddle, kiss, hold hands, et cetera. What a marriage needs to grow and thrive is the unity of the will of the husband and wife with the will of the Father, perfect in His knowledge of what a man and woman need in their individual marriage. When we have no expectations other than fulfulling His Holy will, our marriages cannot fail.

 


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