Circumcision and the Law? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 30 Old 01-31-2011, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
Treece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Planet Earth, most days
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I am currently researching a paper on RIC and am trying to avoid the religious aspect of circumcision. However, the Central Union for Child Welfare of Finland made a statement and in that statement said that even if it was made illegal (all, routine and religious) it would probably never be totally eradicated. So, my question is this: If you are (or were) a member of a religion that mandated circumcision and you lived in a country where it was completely illegal, would you circumcise a newborn male? Or, would you wait until that male was old enough to make that decision?

 

I am not sure if I can link to this statement. If I can, I will so that all can read it. It’s a curiosity. I will not use any answer or information gathered here for my paper.


intactivist.gifwinner.jpg fambedsingle2.gif  learning.gif homeschool.gif buddamomimg1.png gd.gif delayedvax.gif selectivevax.gif  supermod.gif (Yeah right)

angel3.gif loss 2/28/03           photosmile2.gif  ds 1/5/08             asl.gif dd 2/8/10
 
When we know better, we do better. ~Maya Angelou 

Treece is offline  
#2 of 30 Old 02-01-2011, 11:10 AM
 
Chavelamomela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I can tell you that there is a strong history in the Jewish tradition of Jewish people who have risked their lives to circumcise their baby boys even when it was against the law.  This is also representative of times when there was tremendous religious persecution against the Jewish faith, and Jewish people in general risked their lives to perform the commandments and transmit their traditions to the next generations.

 

Examples of specific time periods - during the time in Judea that is now celebrated as the chanukah miracle, when the Syrian Greeks controlled Judea, the Syrian Greek rulers outlawed the performance of circumcision and any outward practice of the Jewish religion.  A revolt was launched by Jewish activists who were committed to their faith and wanted the autonomy to practice their faith and worship in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem

 

As a practicing Jew, I can tell you that even if circumcision were outlawed, I would make many sacrifices to ensure that I could fulfill this and many other commandments.   Our faith, traditions, and commandments are extremely important to us.

 

ETA:  I wanted to add that although i am a strong supported of the right of religious circumcision, I am against RIC, as there is no biblical/divine mandate to do so for people who don't have this commandment.  

Chavelamomela is offline  
#3 of 30 Old 02-02-2011, 01:40 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Yup.  What Chavamamela said, entirely.

 

There is a lot of history of circumcision being made illegal and Jews risking their lives to fulfill the mitzva of bris mila.  It is so central to Jewish belief and identity that there is no reason to think that it would be any different if it was outlawed today in the US or anywhere else. 

 

And yes, the outlawing of circumcision 2,500 years ago by the Greeks gave us the holiday of Khanuka.  :)

merpk is offline  
#4 of 30 Old 02-03-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Faliciagayle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 2,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I can't speak for other religions, but Chavale and Merpk have stated it well - for Jews, there is a long history of fulfilling and preserving commandments even when those commandments were deemed illegal by our host government.  (e.g. Many Spanish Jews were baptized during the Inquisition yet remained Jews in private - practicing Shabbat, etc, and giving rise to Crypto-Jews).

 

This is something I asked my DH about after our son was born - if the US had outlawed circumcision, would he still want to give our son a Brit Milah?  He said yes, I agreed.  And FWIW, the covenant of a Brit Milah is not performed by a doctor in a hospital.


My babies were born at home! 09/07, 01/10, and 09/12 joy.gif

Faliciagayle is offline  
#5 of 30 Old 02-05-2011, 11:39 PM
 
Oubliette8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You might do some reading on Russian Jews. My understanding is that some of them chose NOT to circumcise when it was illegal there under the Communists. Now, there are organizations dedicated to helping new Russian immigrant Jews become circumcised at their now older ages- from old men to boys.
Oubliette8 is offline  
#6 of 30 Old 02-06-2011, 12:15 AM
 
lexapurple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Many Russian Jews are ethnic Jews not religious Jews. Many of them view circumcision as an ethnic tradition that needs to be followed regardless if they practice the religion or not. It is this way for many even when they practice other religions. On other hand there were never Laws that prohibited circumcision as medical procedure. It was the religion that was prohibited and many religious and secular Jews who wanted to have their children circumcised found the way to do it.

lexapurple is offline  
#7 of 30 Old 02-06-2011, 12:17 AM
 
lexapurple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I also wanted to mention that parents who want their daughters to be circumcised just take them to their native country. So parents, at least religious ones would find a way to do it.

lexapurple is offline  
#8 of 30 Old 02-06-2011, 12:43 AM
 
elisheva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BC
Posts: 1,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Jewish. Yes, we'd find a way.


"So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton
 
 
 
   

elisheva is online now  
#9 of 30 Old 02-06-2011, 02:40 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

*oops double post

merpk is offline  
#10 of 30 Old 02-06-2011, 02:41 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oubliette8 View Post

You might do some reading on Russian Jews. My understanding is that some of them chose NOT to circumcise when it was illegal there under the Communists. Now, there are organizations dedicated to helping new Russian immigrant Jews become circumcised at their now older ages- from old men to boys.

 

Of course "some of them (Russian Jews)" chose not to.  And in the time of the Maccabees in Judea some Jews chose not to as well.  And in the time of the persecution by the Romans in Judea some Jews chose not to.  Some Jews in Spain chose to convert to Catholicism during the Inquisition and during the two millenia of persecution in Europe, and in the Middle East some Jews chose to convert to Islam during the ups and downs of persecution in the 14 centuries of Islamic primacy there. 

 

Some Jews chose to stay in Egypt during Moses' time as well, too.  And come to think of it, Moses avoided it himself; it took his wife's persistence to get his sons circumcised.

 

And all of the above (Moses excepted) assimilated into the cultures they chose to assimilate into, and they are all lost to the history of the Jews.  Oh well.

 

Which proves only moreso the intensity of those who choose to stay with it, those who choose to have bris mila.  And in Soviet Russia there were those who managed it ... keeping in mind that you needed a trained mohel to perform a bris, and after the 2 million Soviet Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, and the almost-a-million killed under Stalin ... considering that there were only 5 million Jews in Russia before the revolution (1917) ... the fact that "some chose not to" only magnifies the reality and the power of commitment that led so many to choose to, despite the persecution and the danger.

Nickarolaberry likes this.
merpk is offline  
#11 of 30 Old 02-06-2011, 04:14 PM
JMJ
 
JMJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I am not Jewish, and I would never have my son circumcised, but I believe very strongly in my faith, and I can only assume that if I were Jewish, I would believe equally strongly in the need for my son to enter into the covenant through circumcision (though I would like to believe that I would favor a more ancient form of the rite that only removes a small piece of the foreskin, but I can't really say what I would believe since I don't).  That said, I don't think you can talk about banning circumcision without talking about religion because it is so integral to the Jewish (and other?) faith.  It would be religious discrimination, plain and simple, to outlaw circumcision without a religious exception.

JMJ is offline  
#12 of 30 Old 02-10-2011, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
Treece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Planet Earth, most days
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Faliciagayle View Post
 And FWIW, the covenant of a Brit Milah is not performed by a doctor in a hospital.


Right. I do understand the difference between the two. Some doctors are mohels, but not all.

 

I have really learned from reading all of your posts. The reason I asked, in addition to my curiosity, is that I probably wouldn't. I finished my paper if any wants a copy, pm your email and I'll send all 12 pages of it to you. It is interesting and like I said, there is little if anything about the religious aspect of it.


intactivist.gifwinner.jpg fambedsingle2.gif  learning.gif homeschool.gif buddamomimg1.png gd.gif delayedvax.gif selectivevax.gif  supermod.gif (Yeah right)

angel3.gif loss 2/28/03           photosmile2.gif  ds 1/5/08             asl.gif dd 2/8/10
 
When we know better, we do better. ~Maya Angelou 

Treece is offline  
#13 of 30 Old 02-15-2011, 09:41 AM
 
umsami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 10,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Even if it were made illegal here, we'd still circumcise.  Most likely, we'd just travel to a Muslim country and have it done.

 

I wanted to add that I would not wait until my son was 18 to circumcise from a simple medical standpoint--as well as the fact that in Islam, all prayers that he performed from 10-18 would not be considered valid. (Prior to 10, you're not required to pray.)  I'm married to a physician and we actually had our second son circumcised by a pediatric urologist.  I asked him about that--and he mentioned that it is a much more difficult operation, with a much higher complication rate--as well as more difficult recovery.  Doing that, knowing that, would be considered haram (forbidden) in Islam.


Mom to DS(8), DS(6), DD(4), and DS(1).  "Kids do as well as they can."

umsami is offline  
#14 of 30 Old 02-16-2011, 02:41 PM
 
elisheva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BC
Posts: 1,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post

Even if it were made illegal here, we'd still circumcise.  Most likely, we'd just travel to a Muslim country and have it done.

 

I wanted to add that I would not wait until my son was 18 to circumcise from a simple medical standpoint--as well as the fact that in Islam, all prayers that he performed from 10-18 would not be considered valid. (Prior to 10, you're not required to pray.)  I'm married to a physician and we actually had our second son circumcised by a pediatric urologist.  I asked him about that--and he mentioned that it is a much more difficult operation, with a much higher complication rate--as well as more difficult recovery.  Doing that, knowing that, would be considered haram (forbidden) in Islam.

Yes, circumcision on grown men requires surgery with general anaesthetic, stitches, and prolonged healing.
 


"So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton
 
 
 
   

elisheva is online now  
#15 of 30 Old 02-16-2011, 03:22 PM
 
littleplum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by elisheva View Post



Yes, circumcision on grown men requires surgery with general anaesthetic, stitches, and prolonged healing.
 


My father had a circumcision at 52 for medical reasons, and it was done with a local, not general, anesthetic.

littleplum is offline  
#16 of 30 Old 02-16-2011, 06:01 PM
 
elisheva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BC
Posts: 1,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Must be different in different circumstances - the case I know of personally was 38 and had general. 


"So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton
 
 
 
   

elisheva is online now  
#17 of 30 Old 02-17-2011, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
Treece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Planet Earth, most days
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post

Even if it were made illegal here, we'd still circumcise.  Most likely, we'd just travel to a Muslim country and have it done.

 

I wanted to add that I would not wait until my son was 18 to circumcise from a simple medical standpoint--as well as the fact that in Islam, all prayers that he performed from 10-18 would not be considered valid. (Prior to 10, you're not required to pray.)  I'm married to a physician and we actually had our second son circumcised by a pediatric urologist.  I asked him about that--and he mentioned that it is a much more difficult operation, with a much higher complication rate--as well as more difficult recovery.  Doing that, knowing that, would be considered haram (forbidden) in Islam.



But there is the argument that there are more long term, unrecognized complications from circumcising infants. I realize that it isn't related to religious circumcision, and all. That being said, there are some serious problems arising in men who were circumcised in a medical setting. The shaft can be bent, there can be skin tags, etc. There are also complications for the infant. The AAP lists approximately 20 in their statement on circumcision.

 

That being said, I try to respect other people's religious preferences. But shouldn't the child have some say? What if he doesn't want to be the same religion as his parents? I am not.

 

I also have one question: Why wouldn't his prayers be considered valid? I thought circumcision in Islam was optional?


intactivist.gifwinner.jpg fambedsingle2.gif  learning.gif homeschool.gif buddamomimg1.png gd.gif delayedvax.gif selectivevax.gif  supermod.gif (Yeah right)

angel3.gif loss 2/28/03           photosmile2.gif  ds 1/5/08             asl.gif dd 2/8/10
 
When we know better, we do better. ~Maya Angelou 

Treece is offline  
#18 of 30 Old 02-17-2011, 10:04 AM
 
umsami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 10,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Treece View Post





But there is the argument that there are more long term, unrecognized complications from circumcising infants. I realize that it isn't related to religious circumcision, and all. That being said, there are some serious problems arising in men who were circumcised in a medical setting. The shaft can be bent, there can be skin tags, etc. There are also complications for the infant. The AAP lists approximately 20 in their statement on circumcision.

 

That being said, I try to respect other people's religious preferences. But shouldn't the child have some say? What if he doesn't want to be the same religion as his parents? I am not.

 

I also have one question: Why wouldn't his prayers be considered valid? I thought circumcision in Islam was optional?

As we're not supposed to debate circumcision here...I'm not going to go there.  But I advise you to talk with a urologist about which is more prone to complications and difficulty.  I'll venture that 99.99% of urologists would say that if you were to choose between circumcizing an infant vs. an adult male, knowing that it would be done regardless, to do it as an infant.  Well... maybe not 99.99%, as urologists don't typically benefit from infant circumcision, but do earn $$ off of adult circs.

 

I know of no born Muslim males who have not been circumcised--even among secular ones, they are circumcised. If there were a medical reason not to do so (and I can't think of one right now...maybe some sort of hemophelia or some such thing), then one wouldn't circumcise--but for all other males, they are typically circumcised at birth.  In Turkey, they do it around 5, but that's the only exception I'm aware of.   It's Sunnah, a practice of Prophet Muhammad--and part of cleanliness.  It has to do with following Abraham's example as well--whom Muslims revere just as much as Jews and Christians.  "The practices related to Fitrah are five: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and removing the hair of the armpits."(Bukhari)  

 

Depending on the madhab one follows, it can either be fard (obligatory) or highly recommended. Most scholars consider it obligatory.  One theory is that if it were not required, then Abraham would not have undergone it at such a late age.  It is required for one's (well a male's) prayers to be valid according to Ibn Abbas.  It is also required for one to make Hajj according to Ibn Abbas.  

 

As to religious choice, all kids can choose to follow a different path when they are older.  However, as a Muslim parent, it's my responsibility to raise my kids as Muslims--teach them to pray, teach them to love God, have my male sons circumcised, give charity on their behalf, teach them to fast, etc.  Neglecting circumcision would be neglecting my duties as a parent. 

 

 


Mom to DS(8), DS(6), DD(4), and DS(1).  "Kids do as well as they can."

umsami is offline  
#19 of 30 Old 02-17-2011, 08:51 PM
 
Liquesce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 4,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

That being uncircumcised invalidates prayers outright is rather far into being a minority position, no?  I mean, I tend to call myself "Hanafi light," wherein it's just not an issue at all, really, so I've never had much cause to look into what others schools of thought have had to say.  But it's always been my impression that -- even by scholars who would determine circ to be fard -- to say that to not do so invalidates prayer is considered to be something of an extremity of strictness.  I'm wrong? 

Liquesce is offline  
#20 of 30 Old 02-18-2011, 05:31 AM
 
umsami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 10,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post

That being uncircumcised invalidates prayers outright is rather far into being a minority position, no?  I mean, I tend to call myself "Hanafi light," wherein it's just not an issue at all, really, so I've never had much cause to look into what others schools of thought have had to say.  But it's always been my impression that -- even by scholars who would determine circ to be fard -- to say that to not do so invalidates prayer is considered to be something of an extremity of strictness.  I'm wrong? 



I've heard it from quite a few people, and read it on different sites--but then again, I don't think it's much of an issue because honestly, I do not know of any Muslim males who are not circumcised by 10, KWIM?  Circumcision as a whole is not an issue for me, because I'm not against it for religious purposes.  I believe it relates to tahara--and the feeling that with a foreskin, there's a much greater likelihood of urine remaining.  Even one drop invalidates one's prayers.  Now, if one does one's best... is God going to accept that? I'd like to believe so--but then again, who knows?  My guess is that the parents would be held accountable more than the child if the prayers did not count, but when responsibility switched to the child, I have no idea.  As with all prayers, its up to Allah(swt) as to whether or not they're accepted.  

 

I know there is more leniency regarding converts and this matter, but I haven't seen much leniency for born Muslims who did not have a medical reason for not circing.  Once again, my guess is that the blame for lack of a better term lies with the parents--but then at some point, the child is expected to know that it is required in his faith and make an effort to take care of things himself.  With the greater risk as one gets older, I have no idea how one weighs those things.  If one knows or suspects great risk, then one doesn't have to do it... so as there is substantial more risk as an adult--does one just waive it? Is the "blame" always on the parents? No idea.  Not an issue we face, though as we circed all of our boys as infants.


Mom to DS(8), DS(6), DD(4), and DS(1).  "Kids do as well as they can."

umsami is offline  
#21 of 30 Old 02-18-2011, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
Treece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Planet Earth, most days
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

This thread has really been a learning experience for me. I didn't mean to start a debate on routine infant circumcision. But I was thinking that if there are risks with routine circ, then logically, there must also be (at least some) risks with ritual. Especially if it is done in a hospital, the exact same risks, I would think.

 

I understand that in the Jewish faith it is done by a mohel. Is there any such person in the Islam faith?


intactivist.gifwinner.jpg fambedsingle2.gif  learning.gif homeschool.gif buddamomimg1.png gd.gif delayedvax.gif selectivevax.gif  supermod.gif (Yeah right)

angel3.gif loss 2/28/03           photosmile2.gif  ds 1/5/08             asl.gif dd 2/8/10
 
When we know better, we do better. ~Maya Angelou 

Treece is offline  
#22 of 30 Old 02-18-2011, 09:49 AM
 
umsami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 10,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

There's no Muslim equivalent of a mohel.  People just use a medical professional--and it doesn't matter if they are Muslim or not.

 

Most Muslims (that I'm aware of) have it done in the hospital by the OB.  I have no idea if CNM do the operation or not.  I know some peds do as well--but typically in the US, it's an OB.  I do know a few Muslim families who used a mohel as well. 

 


Mom to DS(8), DS(6), DD(4), and DS(1).  "Kids do as well as they can."

umsami is offline  
#23 of 30 Old 02-18-2011, 04:19 PM
 
Liquesce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 4,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't disagree with circ either, and you would be hard pressed to find me contradicting the validity of so plainly established a sunnah. Definitely not trying to lay the groundwork for a debate on the place of circumcision in Islam. orngbiggrin.gif Just wondering, largely because -- while I do not tend to go around asking after the circumcision status of the men I meet, so can't really comment on how absolutely rare the tendency is -- I have known a few devout parents who have decided against circumcising the sons. I have also more than once, on this board and elsewhere, said explicitly that circumcision does not by definition affect the performance of religious duties ... I know that is a valid point of view, legally speaking, but I also have always thought it to be a majority view. I could be way off about that, though. I don't really know.

Treece: as far as I know in most places whether circumcision is performed in a medical setting or by a lay practitioner has a lot to do with socioeconomic status. But, with some exceptions, lay practitioners are not specialized religious figures ... rather like how men are religiously advised to trim their hair, but barbers are still just barbers.
Liquesce is offline  
#24 of 30 Old 02-19-2011, 11:23 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Just for further clarification, the only "specialized religious figure" status a mohel has is that he's a specialist in circumcising boys.  No other religious status.

 

Technically, the requirement is on the father to perform the bris, and since most fathers aren't specialists, they delegate the actual circumcision part of a bris to a mohel.  

merpk is offline  
#25 of 30 Old 02-19-2011, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
Treece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Planet Earth, most days
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post

I don't disagree with circ either, and you would be hard pressed to find me contradicting the validity of so plainly established a sunnah. Definitely not trying to lay the groundwork for a debate on the place of circumcision in Islam. orngbiggrin.gif Just wondering, largely because -- while I do not tend to go around asking after the circumcision status of the men I meet, so can't really comment on how absolutely rare the tendency is -- I have known a few devout parents who have decided against circumcising the sons. I have also more than once, on this board and elsewhere, said explicitly that circumcision does not by definition affect the performance of religious duties ... I know that is a valid point of view, legally speaking, but I also have always thought it to be a majority view. I could be way off about that, though. I don't really know.

Treece: as far as I know in most places whether circumcision is performed in a medical setting or by a lay practitioner has a lot to do with socioeconomic status. But, with some exceptions, lay practitioners are not specialized religious figures ... rather like how men are religiously advised to trim their hair, but barbers are still just barbers.


I'm not trying to debate it either, I am trying to gain an understanding. I am an intactivist, but have always wondered how I truly feel about the religious aspect. I am not religious, not even a tiny bit. I was raised Methodist/Baptist, but now rarely step into a church, not even for Easter, Christmas, and what's the other? Um, anyway, you get the picture.

 

Thanks for your response I am gaining a greater understanding.


intactivist.gifwinner.jpg fambedsingle2.gif  learning.gif homeschool.gif buddamomimg1.png gd.gif delayedvax.gif selectivevax.gif  supermod.gif (Yeah right)

angel3.gif loss 2/28/03           photosmile2.gif  ds 1/5/08             asl.gif dd 2/8/10
 
When we know better, we do better. ~Maya Angelou 

Treece is offline  
#26 of 30 Old 02-19-2011, 11:30 PM
 
Liquesce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 4,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treece View Post





I'm not trying to debate it either


I meant between umsami and myself, or within Islam in general. wink1.gif
Liquesce is offline  
#27 of 30 Old 02-20-2011, 06:50 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cover letter he!!
Posts: 6,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

I am not Jewish, and I would never have my son circumcised, but I believe very strongly in my faith, and I can only assume that if I were Jewish, I would believe equally strongly in the need for my son to enter into the covenant through circumcision (though I would like to believe that I would favor a more ancient form of the rite that only removes a small piece of the foreskin, but I can't really say what I would believe since I don't).  That said, I don't think you can talk about banning circumcision without talking about religion because it is so integral to the Jewish (and other?) faith.  It would be religious discrimination, plain and simple, to outlaw circumcision without a religious exception.


Thats actually not the case.  For it to be considered violative of the 1st amendment free exercise clause, it would need to be restrictive of belief not conduct (religious belief is absolutely protected in all circumstances, religious conduct is not absolutely protected).  When religious conduct is restricted, it is not a violation of the first amendment if the restriction is neutral and is of general applicability.  Banning all infant circ would therefore not be violative of the fist amendment free exercise clause.  Banning only religious circ on the other hand would violate the first amendment.

 

ETA - just wanted to say that I'm not trying to start a first amendment debate - just passing on what I know about how the free exercise clause works (thank you bar review).

Super~Single~Mama is offline  
#28 of 30 Old 03-09-2012, 01:18 PM
 
Abrah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Umsami - I have to agree with you.  I'm Jewish and a lot of people ask me why I wouldn't wait and let my child choose whether or not to be Jewish.  But I would be failing my obligations as a parent, if I didn't raise my daughter (or future children) Jewish and teach her the traditions and rituals.

 

~Abrah


There are three reasons for breast-feeding:  the milk is always at the right temperature; it comes in attractive containers; and the cat can't get it.  ~Irena Chalmers  twins.gif

 
Abrah is offline  
#29 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 12:28 PM
 
ThomasL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I believe the circumcision laws are manmade and have nothing to do with creator. To answer the question the procedure would never happen in my family if I were to have a son no matter what the religion of my spouse. I don't believe God even cares about circumcision and if God really wanted circumcision boys would have been born circumcised. I am sorry if this post sounds offensive but this is how I feel.

ThomasL is offline  
#30 of 30 Old 09-20-2012, 07:41 AM
 
chicaalegre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Southeast Michigan
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'm curious about this idea that being uncircumcised invalidates Salah. I am a convert and my son is almost 3, uncircumcised, and was born before I converted. I am divorced from his father and his father is not a Muslim. If it were just up to me, I might choose to have my son circumcised (although personally it really bothers me, I believe it is a Sunnah and that there is great purpose and symbolism in it). I doubt that it's legal to have him circumcised without his father's consent, and despite my religious beliefs about it being highly recommended, I feel like it would be extremely disrespectful and unethical to try and have it done without his father's support. I would go to great lengths to protect my children from any religious body modification that was not from my own religion, and I imagine my son's father would too. 

 

All that said, I can't imagine that his prayers once he reaches the age of accountability will be invalid because of this, although Allahu alim. One can't discount intention and I know that God understands the situation and all factors involved. 

 

I'm inspired to learn more about this now--grateful for that--but as far as I know circumcision is not fard (obligatory) and it is not mentioned in the Qur'an. I'm pretty sure that in some countries it is common to have it done closer to puberty. 

 

With any future sons I have with my current husband, I'm fairly certain we would go to lengths to have him circ'd even if there were laws against it. I would want to wait until at least the 8th day (I think there is great wisdom in that Jewish tradition...it's around that time that the baby's Vit K production kicks in, an important blood-clotter) and I would want someone VERY experienced.


hijab.gif Muslim convert attachment mama to 2, stepmama to 3 more. Married to a Warrior Spirit. 

"We can do no great things, only small things with great love." ~Mother Teresa of Calcutta

chicaalegre is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off