Textual Changes to the Roman Missal coming First Sunday of Advent - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 112 Old 12-13-2011, 05:56 AM
 
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I was really excited for the changes and I'm so happy with them. I think "men" still refers to mankind, i.e. humankind and it doesn't bother me at all. I don't think I'm a second class citizen in the Church. I think the Church and the theology of the Church really embraces the dignity of women. Have to say, I've never felt oppressed in the Church, only when I fell in with the more liberal mindset. It was exhausting.

Back to the translation, it is my understanding that the changes generally are a more accurate translation, the old translation completely left things out or said things in a way that changed the meaning and I recall being struck by "y con su espiritu" at the first spanish Mass I attended years ago, so I would think that we english speakers have been out on a limb saying anything else;)

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#92 of 112 Old 12-13-2011, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MommyBecky View Post

I was really excited for the changes and I'm so happy with them. I think "men" still refers to mankind, i.e. humankind and it doesn't bother me at all. I don't think I'm a second class citizen in the Church. I think the Church and the theology of the Church really embraces the dignity of women. Have to say, I've never felt oppressed in the Church, only when I fell in with the more liberal mindset. It was exhausting.

Back to the translation, it is my understanding that the changes generally are a more accurate translation, the old translation completely left things out or said things in a way that changed the meaning and I recall being struck by "y con su espiritu" at the first spanish Mass I attended years ago, so I would think that we english speakers have been out on a limb saying anything else;)



It is quite exhausting to protest everything

 


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#93 of 112 Old 12-13-2011, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I actually find it quite invigorating to question certain Church teachings as I learn more about their so-called basis and reasoning.  It often deepens and enriches my own faith and spirituality, to pray over these things and to take my thoughts to God to sort them out.  For me it is just one more opportunity to grow as a Catholic Christian.


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#94 of 112 Old 12-14-2011, 08:14 AM
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Trigger, I agree that questioning is an important part of maturing in faith, and I don't think that Traditional Catholics don't question, it's just that we tend to question differently.  We wonder what does the Church teach, why does she teach that, but all the while, we assume that the Church is probably right.  Personally, my faith is grounded in a belief that the Church has a right to teach what she does, and that's something I've already worked out and come to a conclusion on it, so the assumption that the Church is probably right flows naturally.  Additionally, just as I would ask my children to question me respectfully, I attempt to give the teaching authority of the Church that same respect, settling my own disagreements by asking questions and exploring ideas rather than trumpeting the Church's faults to the world.

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#95 of 112 Old 12-16-2011, 02:00 PM
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All seriousness aside, I just ran across this revised Christmas cookie recipe in the spirit of the new translation.

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#96 of 112 Old 12-17-2011, 10:08 PM
 
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*giggle*  that's super cute.


The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#97 of 112 Old 01-08-2012, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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~sigh~

 

It's more frustrating yet, when even the priests don't know what they're doing.


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#98 of 112 Old 01-09-2012, 09:55 AM
 
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I've been to several different Churches since the corrected translation was put into action, and I have yet to see a priest not know what they are doing.

 

Really, at this point, continuing to complain isn't going to do anything.  The corrected translation is the one we will be using from now on, and we all have to get used to it.


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#99 of 112 Old 01-09-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Or,

 

Quote:

The "corrected" translation is the one we will be using from now on until Rome decides to change it AGAIN, and we all have to get used to it will muddle through for the time being, somehow.



 


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#100 of 112 Old 01-10-2012, 08:11 AM
 
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Your attitude is disturbing


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#101 of 112 Old 01-10-2012, 11:50 AM
 
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Come now children can we stop the arguing, please? Didn't Jesus say the world will know we belong to Him by the love we have for each other? One thing that convinced me that I had to be Catholic was the realization that God did not divorce His Bride. He has stood by the Church from the beginning, bringing Her to perfection by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Whatever the errors of the human members of His Church it's up to the Holy Spirit to correct us (when we are willing to listen). God has no intention of abandoning Holy Mother Church.

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#102 of 112 Old 01-10-2012, 12:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post

Your attitude is disturbing



Aww. I know I don't post here much, but let's all be civil?

 

PatienceAndLove, what does your avatar mean, if I may ask?


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#103 of 112 Old 01-10-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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My avatar is the St. Benedict medal.

Here is an explanation:

 

Quote:
"Around the margin are the initials of Latin words which form verses supposed to have originated with the holy Father Benedict himself. The English translation is: "Be gone Satan! Suggest not to me thy vain things. The cup thou profferest me is evil; drink thou thy poison." In the angles formed by the arms of the Cross are the letters C.S.P.B., signifying "Cross of the holy Father Benedict." The letters on the Cross itself have this meaning: "May the holy Cross be my light; let not the dragon be my guide."

 

 

-------------------------------

 

I am trying very hard to be civil, but the constant complaints about something the hierarchy has deemed necessary causes me great frustration and sadness.

 


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#104 of 112 Old 01-10-2012, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View PostMy avatar is the St. Benedict medal. Here is an explanation:

 


I am trying very hard to be civil, but the constant complaints about something the hierarchy has deemed necessary causes me great frustration and sadness.

 



Thank you for the explanation. I saw something very like it recently which is why I asked.

 

Frustration is so hard. Especially on the internet. I just didn't want to see things devolve into internet fighting here...it's such a nice board and I am trying to learn smile.gif I am not, at the moment, Catholic, but I'm...hmm, exploring?


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#105 of 112 Old 01-11-2012, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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shrug.gif It's s discussion and debate forum.  If you're coming to this discussion expecting only absolute agreerment wrapped in rainbows and roses, you're probably in the wrong place.

 

All of you that love the RRM so much can certainly express your approval and delight on the Catholic thread in the Spirituality forum.  This happens to be the only place where I can express MY opinion and thoughts (as valid as yours, btw) on the matter.


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#106 of 112 Old 02-01-2012, 09:42 AM
 
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So, not to beat a dead horse (if people would like to talk about something else please throw out even a mediocore interesting thread because I feel chaty).

 

anyway my priest and I were talking about this the other day.  he sympathizes with how hard it is to use a different translation.  If he serves with a different jurisdition or even a different parish he may be using a very slightly different translation which he says is really hard to do.

 

he also thinks however that the changes being made, and how they line up with Easter Orthodox Liturgy is not at all coincidental and is  a move by the Pope to line up more with the EO and move towards reunification.  However small it may be.  That this Pope is making reunification a mission.  which would start with swinging things to a more conservative/traditional place.  Thoughts.....?

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The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#107 of 112 Old 02-01-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lilyka View Post

So, not to beat a dead horse (if people would like to talk about something else please throw out even a mediocore interesting thread because I feel chaty).

 

anyway my priest and I were talking about this the other day.  he sympathizes with how hard it is to use a different translation.  If he serves with a different jurisdition or even a different parish he may be using a very slightly different translation which he says is really hard to do.

 

he also thinks however that the changes being made, and how they line up with Easter Orthodox Liturgy is not at all coincidental and is  a move by the Pope to line up more with the EO and move towards reunification.  However small it may be.  That this Pope is making reunification a mission.  which would start with swinging things to a more conservative/traditional place.  Thoughts.....?

 

I've heard some murmurings to this effect, and I know that working to reunite Christians is high on the pope's priority list. 
What I don't understand is how changing only the English translation accomplishes this?  It's not like the Latin (which is the reference point for the universal Church) has changed to be more in line with the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, and various Eastern Catholic Churches maintain their own liturgies that are much more similar to the Eastern Orthodox liturgy.

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#108 of 112 Old 02-02-2012, 11:50 AM
 
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You make a good point.  Saying it in Latin period would go against a general Orthodox principal(?) of bringing the liturgy to the people in their language.  I wonder how they compare in other languages.  I thought it was an interesting point and was wondering f anyone else had seen other hints that this Pope was on a mission of sorts.  I know there have been more talks in the last few years but no real moves towards joining back together or reconciliation.  


The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#109 of 112 Old 02-03-2012, 09:31 AM
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Well, I don't think that we are divided on the issue of bringing the liturgy to the people in their own language at this point.  There are a few small issues of faith (from the Orthodox perspective, at least) that have not been changed, such as our statement in the creed that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son," whereas he proceeds only from the Father in the Orthodox creed.

 

I do find it interesting, though, that you notice that the translation is more similar to the Orthodox translation.  It makes sense because our reference documents are for the most part the same.  A few months ago, I was driving somewhere and listening to a Catholic radio show that talks about the Eastern Churches, and the guest on the show was making the argument that the new translation had a lot to do with trying to reconcile the Orthodox and Catholic faiths.  I got to where I was going and didn't hear much of his support, but it is interesting for me to hear that someone else notices that too.  I've heard Pope Benedict called "the pope of Christian Unity" a few places (mostly on Catholic radio) because of his attempts to strongly define our beliefs in order to open dialogue with other faiths, so we can discuss where there are really differences and where there are not.  It seems to be the impression of many that he is putting forth a lot of effort to reconcile with separated Christians, and I think that this is most likely to happen with the Orthodox first.  We can pray for that!

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#110 of 112 Old 02-03-2012, 12:42 PM
 
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It would be REALLY interesting to here that radio show!

 

And it is not similar to the Orthodox liturgy.  The parts that were changed are identical.  if you are Orthodox it is impossible to miss.  That's why I was wondering of the mass in ...oh say...French or Spanish was the same as Divine Liturgy on French or Spanish.

 

and I don't see unity happening.  The Catholic church would have to give up too much (the primacy of the Pope for starters, beliefs on original sin, immaculate conception, how they baptize people, etc  The difference are huge ) and the Orthodox Church is not willing to give up anything.   It is interesting to see efforts being made though.  


The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#111 of 112 Old 02-03-2012, 01:20 PM
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I don't see those Catholic beliefs changing either, but there is an opening in that the Catholic Church has never considered the Orthodox to be "heretical," that is, to have incorrect beliefs in the same way that we consider Protestants to have, only "schismatic," not united.  The issues with the pope are issues that separate us.  The other issues, for whatever reason, have not ever been enough to be declared "heretical," though I understand that from the Orthodox perspective, Catholics are indeed "heretical."

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#112 of 112 Old 03-19-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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 There was a lot of discussion in my workshops over why they didn't simply take out the word "men" in the Creed, and have it state "for us and for our salvation" (which I say, anyway).

 

...

 

Many priests in attendance agreed that this would have been the right time to just omit the word "men" from the Creed.



I attended the pastoral installation of one of those priests on Saturday.  When he proclaimed the Creed (by himself, as per the ceremony), he said,

 

"For us and for our salvation, ..."

 

thumb.gif

 


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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