Textual Changes to the Roman Missal coming First Sunday of Advent - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 112 Old 05-25-2011, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Has this been discussed?  I took two workshops on the revised Third Edition Roman Missal last weekend.  The changes are small, but significant - it's a real shame that the USCCB has decreed that they cannot be implemented over a period of time, that we must wait until 11/27 and then change it ALL.  People are going to be confused and upset, if there is no catechesis on these changes from the pulpit (this is being strongly encouraged, but you KNOW not all priests are going to do it).  Heck, you should have heard the heated discussions during the keynote address and workshops alone!

 

In other countries, parishes plan to introduce the changes one or two at a time, in the weeks leading up to Advent.  I think this is the proper way to do it, and I'm really disappointed in the US Catholic Bishops for being so hard-headed.

 

The bishops in Ireland and Australia are flat-out refusing to implement the revised Missal.

 

I'm glad I took these workshops, because I gained a much better understanding of the reasons for the changes; however, the general consensus amongst the participants (priests, deacons, non-ordained religious, lay ministers, and general laity from all over my diocese) seems to be that, even after ten years of working at this thing, Rome still didn't get it quite right.  I agree with that assessment.

 

You can find lots of good info here.

 

Specific changes in the congregation's parts

 

Specific changes in the priest's parts

 

Most of the liturgical music will have to be changed, as well.  It's gonna be a bumpy ride.  I sure hope we don't lose even more people over this.

 

Let's discuss ...


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#2 of 112 Old 05-25-2011, 02:31 PM
 
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The gloria part is old and probably was part of Catholic liturgy at one time.  My children can all sing this from memory and was probably one of the first hymns they learned.

 

Same with the creed.  This is almost word for word how the old Greeks say it (the Bishop has given us the translation he would like us to use but it is hard to change).

 

"And with your Spirit" is also an Orthodox thing.

 

Honestly to me it sounds like hey are trying to go back to an older version/translation of the Liturgy.    None of this wording is new.  

 

Also it doesn't look as though the changes are that big if that is all there is.  Just a few wording choices that take things back to am more traditional wording.


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#3 of 112 Old 05-25-2011, 04:03 PM
 
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#4 of 112 Old 05-25-2011, 04:11 PM
 
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We've been discussing the changes for awhile in our parish, and there have been weekly articles in our bulletins, as well as discussions.  I love the new changes.  The reason the bishops n Ireland are refusing has to do with gender issues, which is a bunch of huey in my opinion. 


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#5 of 112 Old 05-26-2011, 06:58 AM
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Looks like a better translation of the original Greek to me.  :)


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Looks like a better translation of the original Greek to me.  :)


lol.gif Actually, the whole purpose was to make everything a better translation of the Latin.  And to make better references to Scripture in the liturgical prayers.
 

 


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We've been discussing the changes for awhile in our parish, and there have been weekly articles in our bulletins, as well as discussions.  I love the new changes.  The reason the bishops n Ireland are refusing has to do with gender issues, which is a bunch of huey in my opinion. 



 There was a lot of discussion in my workshops over why they didn't simply take out the word "men" in the Creed, and have it state "for us and for our salvation" (which I say, anyway).

 

It's not exactly hooey, it's Rome's subtle way of maintaining their patriarchal (and slightly misogynistic) stance. Many priests in attendance agreed that this would have been the right time to just omit the word "men" from the Creed.

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#8 of 112 Old 05-27-2011, 11:36 AM
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The Roman Catholic Mass as we know it is based on an ancient Greek paleochristian liturgy.  Part of the reason for this new translation is the hope for healing the schism between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.  The Byzantine Catholic Church published a new translation of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom about 2 years ago, and the Roman Catholic translation of the Mass is very similar to the Byzantine one, which brings the Roman and Byzantine liturgies a tiny bit closer to the wording of the Orthodox liturgies.

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#9 of 112 Old 06-02-2011, 02:40 PM
 
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because "for us men and for our salvation" is more correct in the original Latin.

The whole "patriarchal (and slightly misogynistic) stance" argument is old and stale.

 

 

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#10 of 112 Old 06-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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I'm not RC, but was interested in the thread. smile.gif If you look at the Greek, the word anthropos is in there ("for us anthropos and our salvation")--and of course the Latin homines is a translation of the original Greek--so it makes sense to have something in there to correspond to anthropos/homines, or humankind. To my mind, reminding believers that Christ came to save us human beings, not just us [who are speaking the creed, that is, believers], is an important distinction.

 

Seems to me that it's not a question of what the original said--it's clear that the creed is not saying that Christ came to save male gendered people--rather, the question is, what is the most appropriate translation given today's English usage?

 

"Men" has consistently been used in the past in English to refer to humans; however, English is a living language and connotations (and denotations) are changing. These days, it can sound proper/formal to use "men" to refer to humankind--or it can sound confusingly gendered--or just kind of fusty and old-fashioned.

 

I wonder if this choice is more akin to the way people sometimes use British spellings on their wedding invitations (even when they're not British)--trying to sound formal and traditional--and less about imposing patriarchy. I also wonder what translations might be better. "For us human beings" sounds kind of sci-fi. "For all of us people" sounds a little too folksy. Hm. Not an easy project!

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#11 of 112 Old 06-05-2011, 03:34 PM
 
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I agree.  We say "for us men and for our salvation"  I have always taken that to mean "mankind" and not "the folks with penises".  i always have thought of myself as "man" in the sense that God made Angels, God made Men and God made animals.  I am not Angels or Animals.  I am Man.


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#12 of 112 Old 06-06-2011, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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because "for us men and for our salvation" is more correct in the original Latin.

The whole "patriarchal (and slightly misogynistic) stance" argument is old and stale.

 


To your first point - not really.  As others have noted, the more accurate translation would be "mankind" or "humankind".
 

To your second point - not in my Diocese, it isn't.  And not to a whole lot of Catholic women everywhere, either.  What's stale is Catholics who think it's perfectly acceptable for their church to consider women second class.

 



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I agree.  We say "for us men and for our salvation"  I have always taken that to mean "mankind" and not "the folks with penises".  i always have thought of myself as "man" in the sense that God made Angels, God made Men and God made animals.  I am not Angels or Animals.  I am Man.

 

 

I agree. Which is why they should have taken this opportunity to change the wording to "mankind", IMO.

 

Another for instance .... in the Apostles' Creed, the phrase "He descended to the dead." has been changed BACK to "He descended into hell;", even though the translation from Latin should be "the place of the dead" - which makes more sense anyway.

 

Again, the general consensus at this workshop (comprised of clergy, non-ordained religious, and laity) was that Rome seems to have overlooked a lot of nuances in translation.

 

It's frustrating that, after ten years of working on this, they seem to have still missed the mark.
 

 

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Oh my goodness. Now because we say "man" we must all be the victims of a vast conspiracy to demean women? Ridiculous.

 

I personally think it is outrageous to suggest that Holy Mother Church is a backwater of misogyny. I can tell you that to say to all Catholic women that we are being oppressed and treated like second-class citizens is so incredibly offensive. There is no place on earth that understands the value of women like the Church.

 

For a group of laity and religious to get together and be so self-righteous and indignant that the Vatican isn't doing things their way and therefore must be wrong is, well, ummm, prideful.

 

And may I just say thank goodness they will have to take out the Protestant "music" and maybe do something Catholic for a change.


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"And with your Spirit" is also an Orthodox thing.

 

Honestly to me it sounds like hey are trying to go back to an older version/translation of the Liturgy.    None of this wording is new.  

 

 



"And with your Spirit" is in the Tridentine (Latin) mass. It is also what is said in Italian and Spanish.

 


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For a group of laity and religious to get together and be so self-righteous and indignant that the Vatican isn't doing things their way and therefore must be wrong is, well, ummm, prideful.
 

 

 

That's not what I said at all.  They/we are pointing out that the Vatican missed the mark.  Because they did.  Some of the translations are simply incorrect.

 

You're the one who seems to be getting indignant here.


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#16 of 112 Old 07-01-2011, 08:39 PM
 
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Perhaps I am.mischievous.gif It might be better to say things like "in my opinion" or "it is possible that" instead of blanket statements. For example, one might say, "In my opinion the Vatican missed the mark because...."
 
To say the translation is incorrect is, again, a matter of opinion.

 


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It would seem that those groups that cling to the Liturgy in its oldest forms use this wording.  It makes perfect sense that in an effort to clarify things and rectify inaccuracies they would go back to the wording that has been used from the beginning.  it is no surprise to me that several groups known for having a more traditional and unchanging liturgy use this wording.  I really applaud the Vatican for taking a second look at this and going back.
 

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"And with your Spirit" is in the Tridentine (Latin) mass. It is also what is said in Italian and Spanish

 


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I agree.  We say "for us men and for our salvation"  I have always taken that to mean "mankind" and not "the folks with penises".  i always have thought of myself as "man" in the sense that God made Angels, God made Men and God made animals.  I am not Angels or Animals.  I am Man.


Yes. Also, in our church (Orthodox) the congregation usually says the Creed together, and women as well as men say "for us men and for our salvation." For that matter, so do boys and girls, who are also not "men" in the other sense, and nobody seems to feel the Creed excludes small children. 

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Oh my goodness. Now because we say "man" we must all be the victims of a vast conspiracy to demean women? Ridiculous.

 

I personally think it is outrageous to suggest that Holy Mother Church is a backwater of misogyny. I can tell you that to say to all Catholic women that we are being oppressed and treated like second-class citizens is so incredibly offensive. There is no place on earth that understands the value of women like the Church.

 

For a group of laity and religious to get together and be so self-righteous and indignant that the Vatican isn't doing things their way and therefore must be wrong is, well, ummm, prideful.

 

And may I just say thank goodness they will have to take out the Protestant "music" and maybe do something Catholic for a change.


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#20 of 112 Old 07-10-2011, 11:30 AM
 
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hug2.gifsame here - glad that things are going well for you! 


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#21 of 112 Old 07-20-2011, 04:51 AM
 
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I'm curious what the announced reason for the changes is. It's been quite a year for me, so I know the changes are coming, but Trigger's link was the first time I've taken a look at them.

 

Translations of translations get tricky, so there is and will be legitimate debate over the choices of the words.

 

The wording is closer that that used around Vatican II. I remember that the scholars at that time were relieved about the change in the "descended to hell" because they felt that theologically that was unsound and the translation was not accurate.

 

I looks like an attempt to bring the east and west closer together in translations.

 

How does the new missal compare with the Episcopal Book of Common prayer? Does anyone know?

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And may I just say thank goodness they will have to take out the Protestant "music" and maybe do something Catholic for a change.



I don't know - I'd take "Come Down O Love Divine" or Jerusalem" or "O God our Help in Ages Past" before "Gather Us In" any day.


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#23 of 112 Old 07-25-2011, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And may I just say thank goodness they will have to take out the Protestant "music" and maybe do something Catholic for a change.



 Can you elaborate on this?  I was raised Protestant, and:

 

1 - What "Protestant 'music' " are you referring to in the Catholic liturgy?  Are you referring to specific liturgical responses/prayers, or just hymns and/or other music that you dislike and consider "UNCatholic" for some reason?  Or is this about clapping during the Gloria again?  lol.gif

 

2 - What exactly is wrong with Protestant "music" - and why the quotations?  Do Protestant/general Christian hymns, liturgical responses, and other spiritual songs not fit your definition of "music"?  Our deacon absolutely loves tunes like "The Old Rugged Cross" and "Go Tell it on the Mountain", and always requests that the choir utilize them during Lent and Advent, respectively.  They aren't specifically Catholic hymns, and I'm not nuts about either, but I understand the love some people have for their messages.

 

3 - Catholic liturgical music is not unlike what I grew up with in the Presbyterian church.  The liturgies are quite similar, actually.

 

 

Why such abject scorn for Christian music that doesn't fit your definition of "Catholic"?


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#24 of 112 Old 07-25-2011, 10:22 AM
 
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somebody's in an argumentative mood this morningrolleyes.gif

 

The music has nothing to do with the thread, so I won't bother with a reply. I suspect you care less about my feelings about liturgical music and more about my being a traditional Catholic, not a Presbyterian Catholic. meh. whatever.


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#25 of 112 Old 07-25-2011, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Really, moonshoes, you needn't get so worked up and defensive just because I like to discuss this stuff.  This is, after all, a discussion and debate forum.  I like to discuss and debate, yes; and I'm interested in the whys and wherefores of the differing opinions, which is why I enjoy the RS forum so much.  I want to understand why other Catholics think and believe what they do.

 

Music as a form of worship and prayer is extremely important to me, and I love to experience different kinds of music in liturgy.  Obviously, you have a very narrow spectrum of music that you feel is appropriate for Roman Catholic liturgy - I would like to know exactly what that is, and why.

 

This

 

Quote:
 a Presbyterian Catholic

 

 

was just a meanspirited, snarky jab at my personal faith journey, and completely unnecessary.  Honestly, if you were so offended by my questions, and by the discussion of these things to begin with, you needn't have bothered to reply at all.


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#26 of 112 Old 07-27-2011, 07:14 PM
 
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Moonshoes, I know exactly what you mean by protestant music.  Its hard to put it into words though.  What do Catholics traditionally use for music?  In the Orthodox church the divide between our liturgical music and protestants is huge.  There simply is no where for other music to creep in (we simply couldn't replace a protestant hymn for one of our hymns.  it would not fit and part of the liturgy would be missing!  I am offended enough when I go to churches that have an organ (and that is as crazy as it gets for instruments) or protestant choir robes. Its just so wrong.   


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#27 of 112 Old 07-27-2011, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Please explain to me the difference between Protestant choir robes and Orthodox/Catholic choir robes?  I am genuinely curious!

 

I have never been to a Catholic church that doesn't have an organ.  Personally, I prefer piano music, but not all churches have one.  They all seem to have organs, though.


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#28 of 112 Old 07-27-2011, 09:25 PM
 
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I am aware that it is quite acceptable in Western churches to have instruments although this was not so in the early Catholic church.  I do not know when instrumental music crept in and if it was controversial or not.  That would indeed be something interesting to study.  But that is why I asked Moonshoes about what traditionally was used in the Roman Catholic liturgy.

 

The Orthodox church traditionally does not use any instruments.  The use of organs came into fashion (thank goodness still in a very limited fashion) for several reasons.  One was we bought protestant churches that already had them installed (in the case of the parish I went to, the one with the choir robes)  Might as well use them....I say better to leave them but not my call....Another reason was to blend in with American Christianity (as is the case with another somewhat local parish).  I think this is a lousy reason.  I have only been to one church that had Western style choir robes....again it just seemed like a lame attempt to fit in with American protestantism.  Otherwise I have never been to an Orthodox church where the choir wore robes (perhaps cassocks but not modern choir robes) so perhaps this was just a really weird parish.  The whole experience there was uncomfortable and off putting.  At best they are pointless and at worst they are an attempt to make the choir "sparkle" when instead they should be focused on humility and prayer and not preforming.

 

Since we cannot change the actual songs or rhythms of the chanting, or anything else the organ music (or any other instrument one might try to insert) has to be fit around what is already there.  Thus far this has been a total  EPIC FAIL every where I have been.  Its like trying to fit a grand church organ inot a Metallica concert.  It just doesn't belong.  There is nothing wrong with it if you like that sort of thing (I hate organ music but any other instrument would sound just as bad in this setting)  So the temptation is to make the hymns less Byzantine and more Western in order to make the instrument fit.  Which is a slippery slope....Making it about the instrument or our tastes or what excites our passions rather than about God.  Bad. 

 

I don't mind listening to protestant music or even singing along on the car radio or whatever but it just does not belong in Divine Liturgy or any other holy service.


The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#29 of 112 Old 07-28-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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You can't even see the choir during the Liturgy at my (Orthodox) church.  They sit up in a balcony in the far back of the nave, and they do not wear robes of any sort.  Also, no instruments.

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#30 of 112 Old 07-28-2011, 07:32 AM
 
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Hi moonshoes, I'm not feeling argumentative either and I find myself wondering what hymns specifically you are thinking of. I'm a life long Catholic from before Vatican II and I remember the incredible joy of singing "to everything there is a season" when it was a popular song on the radio in the mid-60's.

 

I wonder what, if any, hymns are affected by the changes in the Missal...I know the responses have to be re-written, but are the actual "hymns" affected? Are there beloved songs that Catholic people are hoping to hear that they have been missing? Are there songs that will need to be dropped for some reason?

 

We don't have an organ at our church, but we have piano, harp, drums, flute, guitar, mandolin, and.... as well as a healthy and involved music ministry. Our Music Minister has been known to remind people during the announcements before Mass that Rome *requires* our sung response during Mass, so the congregation does indeed "make a joyful noise."

 

There was quite a kerfluffle when changes were made after Vatican II. I'll not soon forget the day that Father Murphy refused communion to a woman whose head was uncovered....yup, after the Mass was in English. Arguments over whether the Mass was a sufficient sacrifice if the church was air conditioned (no kidding). Loud arguments about whether the Vatican was overstepping by allowing standing at the altar rail.

 

Of course, all these arguments over form completely missed the mis-administration going on moving criminal priests around from one parish to the next. If only we'd known, perhaps we'd not have been so distracted.

 

The changes seem minor, reverting back to more accurate translations in some cases, less accurate in others. Some people will delightedly embrace them, some reluctantly, some not at all. But we'll continue to cling together as a Church family, loving each other in all our differences and foibles.

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