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Old 06-09-2011, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Has anyone read this book by Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick called Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy? 

 

I was hoping to get some reviews because I haven't had a chance to get it yet. 

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Old 06-09-2011, 05:26 PM
 
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Yep! I've had it for about a month and love it!

 

It's meant for the Orthodox, written from the Orthodox viewpoint. Wanted to point that out for folks from other traditions.

 

There's a podcast by the same name on AFR, that was a series of classes Fr. Andrew had done in his parish and recorded. The book are the podcasts expanded and some things corrected/revised.

 

Conciliar Press is not always known for putting out the best books, but this one is a home run!

 

It's invaluable for me as a catechist in training.


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Old 06-09-2011, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm listening to the podcast now, but the book looked good. Amazon didn't have the look inside feature for it so I figured I'd ask if anyone had it. Good to know that it's great, I'll have to pick it up. 

 

 

 

ps scroll down in religious studies and look at my chant tones thread please LOL

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Old 06-09-2011, 06:07 PM
 
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LOL - just posted a very long reply in the chant thread.


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Old 06-10-2011, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I listened to the first few podcasts last night up through the 2 on Catholicism. It was really helpful in understanding the differences. Some of the stuff I already knew and some I didn't.

 

I knew the connection between the Catholic teachings of mortal and venial sin and it's relationship to the teaching on sanctifying grace ( and purgatory/indulgences), but I never realized the differences in the teaching regarding ordination nor thought of the consequences of the teaching that ordination leaves a permanent mark on the soul is not taught in the OC and how it results in "valid but illicit" groups in the CC.

 

Also how the differences in belief on original sin are related to the differences of belief on Mary's immaculate conception, that one was very interesting to me as I'd never thought that one out to it's conclusion.

 

I also thought what he said about the Trinity to be very interesting. I can't remember exactly how he worded it but basically he said that attributes about God either describe all 3 like that God is eternal or 1 that God is incarnate IE the son only. And that only the Catholic teaching of the filioque applies to 2. But then I've found the tradition and scriptural support for the filioque to be lacking anyway. 

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Old 06-10-2011, 07:28 AM
 
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Yes, I found that interesting, as well.

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Old 06-10-2011, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So I was just thinking that, if the OC does not believe in ordination leaving an indelible mark on the soul so once a priest always a priest how does that effect the OC view on apostolic succession? Do they believe that the CC no longer holds apostolic succession since they no longer have communion with the OC? And if they the believe the CC no longer has apostolic succession then how are their sacraments valid? Is that why the christmate Catholics that become Orthodox even if they were already confirmed? 

 

From Orthodox Wiki

 

In addition to a line of historic transmission, Orthodox Christian churches additionally require that a hierarch maintain Orthodox doctrine as well as full communion with other Orthodox bishops. As such, the Orthodox do not recognize the existence of apostolic succession outside the Orthodox Church, precisely because the episcopacy is a ministry within the Church.

 

 

I'd have to go back and relisten to what his definitions of schism and heresy are, because I can't remember. 

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Old 06-10-2011, 06:43 PM
 
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I have listened to some of the pod casts.  They were excellent (the parts I heard.  I was in and out of sleep LOL ).


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Old 06-10-2011, 07:30 PM
 
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I listened to all of the podcasts and thought they were very good, too.

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Old 06-10-2011, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

So I was just thinking that, if the OC does not believe in ordination leaving an indelible mark on the soul so once a priest always a priest how does that effect the OC view on apostolic succession? Do they believe that the CC no longer holds apostolic succession since they no longer have communion with the OC? And if they the believe the CC no longer has apostolic succession then how are their sacraments valid? Is that why the christmate Catholics that become Orthodox even if they were already confirmed? 

 

From Orthodox Wiki

 

In addition to a line of historic transmission, Orthodox Christian churches additionally require that a hierarch maintain Orthodox doctrine as well as full communion with other Orthodox bishops. As such, the Orthodox do not recognize the existence of apostolic succession outside the Orthodox Church, precisely because the episcopacy is a ministry within the Church.

 

 

I'd have to go back and relisten to what his definitions of schism and heresy are, because I can't remember. 



 

I wish I could take more time to reply, but I've got a ton of class reading to do (catechesis/liturgical theology/homiletics-public speaking this semester).

 

But I can tell you that it's not universal that Catholics are chrismated. Depends on the national Orthodox Church. The Russians and the Greeks historically had different methods of receiving Catholics.

 

This article was written by Fr. John Erickson, former dean of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary in New York (he was professor of Church history as well) - I also had to read it for class.

 

http://jbburnett.com/resources/erickson_reception-svtq97.pdf

 

And this from the website of the OCA Cathedral in San Francisco:

http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/pogodin-reception/reception-ch4.html

 


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Old 06-11-2011, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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no problem, I don't want to interfere with your studies. 

 

I'll just put my ponderings down and whoever has the knowledge, time and inclination can post. 

 

I'm a little confused about how the OC views the CC. On the one hand there is this statement

 

 

 

Quote:
Orthodox Christian churches additionally require that a hierarch maintain Orthodox doctrine as well as full communion with other Orthodox bishops. As such, the Orthodox do not recognize the existence of apostolic succession outside the Orthodox Church, precisely because the episcopacy is a ministry within the Church.

 

At the same time there are Orthodox groups giving the pope papal tiaras. 

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Old 06-11-2011, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok so the teaching of ordination leaving an indelible mark on the soul and IE once a priest always a priest was declared at the council of Trent in 16th century. 

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Old 06-14-2011, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I ordered the book, I'll post back after it arrives and I read it. 

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Old 06-16-2011, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok further interesting parts in the book.

 

Page 31 The over emphases on reason leads to an imbalanced spirituality, in which the integral oneness of the body, mind and soul that Orthodox spirituality nurtures becomes fragmented and the body is too highly emphasized in spiritual life. 

 

Page 32 He mentions stigmata, self flagellation, devotional scapulars, stations of the cross and their focuses on the flesh. 

 

The topic of absolute divine simplicity was new to me and quite interesting

 

Also his topics on created grace is expanded to include how it relates to the validity of sacraments which was an association I hadn't thought of. 

 

I really like the appendix in the back on the timeline of relations between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and list of heresies quick reference. 

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Old 06-23-2011, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

 

I'm a little confused about how the OC views the CC. On the one hand there is this statement

 

 

 

Quote:
Orthodox Christian churches additionally require that a hierarch maintain Orthodox doctrine as well as full communion with other Orthodox bishops. As such, the Orthodox do not recognize the existence of apostolic succession outside the Orthodox Church, precisely because the episcopacy is a ministry within the Church.

 

 

At the same time there are Orthodox groups giving the pope papal tiaras. 


The statement is accurate: the Orthodox position has always been that doctrine and unity with the Church are essential. Literal succession alone, regardless of correct doctrine etc., is not enough. The priesthood only exists within the Church. It is not something passed down like a genetic trait. 

 

Part of the confusion about tiaras and such may come from Orthodox clergy giving non-Orthodox hierarchs their "props" in public situations. For example, even a bishop's letter condemning certain RC beliefs or practices is always directed to His Holiness the Pope. It might be no more than superficial courtesy.

 

Even more confusion might come from the division between what might be called "traditionalists" and "modernists" within the Orthodox church.

The former are strictly non-ecumenical, and regard all non-Orthodox as completely outside the Church; they do not give Communion to Catholic or Protestant visitors, and usually require converts to Orthodoxy to be either chrismated or baptized.

The latter consider only Orthodoxy to have the fullness of faith, but do not place RC or Protestant Christians outside the Church, and will often concelebrate with non-Orthodox. 

 

 

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Old 06-23-2011, 05:17 PM
 
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The latter consider only Orthodoxy to have the fullness of faith, but do not place RC or Protestant Christians outside the Church, and will often concelebrate with non-Orthodox. 

 

 



Are there a lot of real Orthodox who do this?


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Old 06-23-2011, 06:52 PM
 
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Are there a lot of real Orthodox who do this?

 

I guess the question might be, if they do this are they "real" Orthodox? mischievous.gif

Seriously, not many worldwide, but the majority in North America. For many reasons including immigration history, Orthodox churches in North America are very much skewed toward the modern and non-traditional, and practices like concelebration and shared Communion are disproportionately common here. 

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Old 06-23-2011, 10:30 PM
 
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I have never been to a church where the priest would never knowingly give communion to someone who was not Orthodox!  Although they often do take the persons word for it.


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Old 06-24-2011, 10:01 AM
 
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I guess the question might be, if they do this are they "real" Orthodox? mischievous.gif

Seriously, not many worldwide, but the majority in North America. For many reasons including immigration history, Orthodox churches in North America are very much skewed toward the modern and non-traditional, and practices like concelebration and shared Communion are disproportionately common here. 


I've never seen this in the OCA. But in my previous time with the Antiochians, heck, yes! A lot of it has to do with the situation in the Middle East. Christians of all sorts are the minority, and so they really stick together. There aren't the divisions among them like in the,US. It's a matter of survival. The Antiochians in the US will commune visitors to parishes.who are Coptic and Armenian Orthodox. If they want to join a parish they have to be chrismated or received by profession of faith, confession, and communion.

Among Middle Eastern Christians, a woman begins to practice her husband's faith upon marriage. So if a Latin or Byzantine Rite Catholic woman marries an Antiochian Orthodox man, she will attend,his church, take Communion, etc. It's rare for a woman to convert. Of course, this creates a pastoral issue when these folks immigrate to the US.

I've seen this with my own eyes and been told by multiple priests that Met. Philip mandates they must commune Copts and Armenian Orthodox. I've also been about the Middle Eastern situation by multiple immigrants from both Lebanon and Palestine.

It is kind of an open secret, but you've had to have some exposure to the Antiochians to be aware of it. This is the only intercommunion I am aware of or have seen.


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Old 06-24-2011, 10:19 AM
 
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That's really interesting, Tradd.  The Antiochian parish I attend states specifically in the bulletin who can and cannot take communion.  They certainly wouldn't let me participate until I am officially Orthodox, but it would be interesting to find out where they stand on Copts and Armenian Orthodox. 

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Old 06-24-2011, 11:17 AM
 
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That's really interesting, Tradd.  The Antiochian parish I attend states specifically in the bulletin who can and cannot take communion.  They certainly wouldn't let me participate until I am officially Orthodox, but it would be interesting to find out where they stand on Copts and Armenian Orthodox. 



PS, you're an American of Protestant background! The "usual rules" are bent in many ways when it comes to those Orthodox from the Middle East.

 

Now, the situation I described - a Byzantine Rite Catholic woman marrying an Antiochian Orthodox fellow, both immigrants from the Middle East - if the marriage was taking place in the US , would be handled differently than if happening in the Middle East. The woman would not be allowed to take commune, be a godparent, etc., in the Antiochian parish *unless she actually became Orthodox.* I have this directly from the mouth of a priest from the Middle East. I asked him directly.

 

You might not be aware (Met. Kallistos Ware mentions this in The Orthodox Church), but in 1724 a large part of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch submitted to the pope, apparently for the political protection afforded by being under Rome.

 

I've not seen anything online publicly from Met. Philip about communing Coptic and Armenian Orthodox, but I've been in a parish, where this happened several times a year, and the priest made a point of tellng parishioners that Met. Philip required that Antiochian priests in the US commune Copts and Armenians. Period. The only stipulation is that the Copts and Armenians be in good standing and practicing in their own church. I have a friend who is first-generation American, born of ethnic Armenian parents who immigrated from Lebanon. The family ended up in Lebanon after the Turks committed genocide against the large Armenian population in Asia Minor in the 1910s, and others fled or were expelled.

 

Anyway, my friend was raised Armenian Orthodox, didn't understand the liturgical language, fell away. Married an American woman in the Armenian church, but they became Evangelical Protestants. They became interested in Orthodoxy at an Antiochian parish and were converted. My friend's parents visit the Antiochian parish 1-2 times a year. The first time, the father was asked at the chalice if he had recently confessed in his Armenian parish. He said no. The Antiochian priest told him that if he went to confession at his Armenian parish, he could take communion in the Antiochian parish the next time he visited. And so he did.

 

This communing of Copts and Armenians, again, is ONLY for visitors. If an Armenian or Copt liked a "regular" Eastern Orthodox parish and wanted to join, they would have to become Eastern Orthodox. I know a Copt who became Orthodox, became a deacon and is now an OCA priest. He and his wife are immigrants from Egypt.

 

BTW, there's a large Coptic parish near me, and I'm told the food at their Egyptian fest is fab. I have to go, given my addiction to Middle Eastern food!


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Old 06-24-2011, 11:19 AM
 
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PS, I forgot to ask, do you have any Middle Eastern immigrants in your parish?

 

My area has a large Middle Eastern population, and so the two Antiochian parishes with a large immigrant population are HUGE. There's also two convert parishes.


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Old 06-24-2011, 11:21 AM
 
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Thanks, Tradd.  I find all of this fascinating.  smile.gif

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Old 06-24-2011, 05:41 PM
 
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Copts have special rules at our church.  I think the baptized children are welcomed without "converting", the babies are of course baptized and full members, and the parents never receive sacraments but I don't know if this is more a personal choice or because they are not allowed.   I know we have children who are Aritrian and Egyptian.  We have a vibrant community of Ethiopian orthodox here so we do not commune them unless they wish to convert.  This is pretty standard though.  I was thinking about specifically non Orthodox and people who call themselves orthodox but are not.  I consider the Coptic Christians Orthodox.

 

I know brides/grooms are chrismated quite easily as well.  often without any catichesis.  I am not sure how I feel about this.  I guess it is no different than baptizing an infant though....you win some you lose some.

 

I don't envy the priest's job here.  It can get hard.


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Old 06-24-2011, 06:44 PM
 
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Copts have special rules at our church.  I think the baptized children are welcomed without "converting", the babies are of course baptized and full members, and the parents never receive sacraments but I don't know if this is more a personal choice or because they are not allowed.   I know we have children who are Aritrian and Egyptian.  We have a vibrant community of Ethiopian orthodox here so we do not commune them unless they wish to convert.  This is pretty standard though.  I was thinking about specifically non Orthodox and people who call themselves orthodox but are not.  I consider the Coptic Christians Orthodox.

 

I know brides/grooms are chrismated quite easily as well.  often without any catichesis.  I am not sure how I feel about this.  I guess it is no different than baptizing an infant though....you win some you lose some.

 

I don't envy the priest's job here.  It can get hard.



 

I can talk about the situation with the Ethiopian Orthodox as we've got two families (related) in my parish. At least in my OCA diocese, under the guidelines of our previous bishop (who died in late 2009, and his successor was just consecrated six weeks ago), Ethiopian children are allowed to commune up until about ago 12 or so. After that, if they want to commune, they have to go to confession. Adults cannot commune unless they go to confession.

 

My priest didn't know what to do when the two Ethiopian Orthodox families showed up in our parish, so he called the bishop.

 

The Ethiopian practice of communion/confession was very new to me. One of the Ethiopian woman explained it to me. Whether or not this practice is endorsed by their hierarchy or not, I don't know, but this is the common practice among the laity...

 

Ethiopian Orthodox will go to confession/communion right before they get married. Then, they will not partake of either sacrament until they are much older, about 60-65. The woman told me she had asked the priest back home if she could do confession/communion (she is in her mid-30s and never married, I think she's been in the US for about 10 years). The priest told her, "What's the point? You'll just sin again." When a person reaches sometime in their 60s, they will go to confession ONCE and then always go to communion. But they will never do confession again, at least not until their deathbed.

 

The two women  (one married, one not) came for a few years before the unmarried one decided to do confession during Great Lent as she wanted to go to communion. She was very, very nervous, but it helped that I was a convert, and I was able to explain it to her from a first-time, scared perspective. I got her calmed somewhat. She went to confession - - this was before a Presanctified Liturgy and then communion. Our priest is very gentle in confession, which helps! :D She said her sister (the married one with one child about 10) was going to think she was "crazy" for going to confession and communion. It took a while - maybe a year or so, but the married sister went to confession and communion during the next Great Lent, I believe. Or maybe it was two years later.

 

I have to amend my earlier post saying I'd never seen the "intercommunion" done in the OCA. I don't know if this would be considered "intercommunion" in the strict sense of the word, which I would consider to be with Roman & Byzantine Rite Catholics and Protestants. The OCA guidelines stipulate that non-Chalcedonian Christians (which include the Coptic, Armenian and Ethiopian Orthodox) be received by confession, profession of the Orthodox faith, and communion. The two Ethiopian families are active members of my parish, not visitors. It's not too much of a stretch to consider someone who has gone to confession, recited the Creed at the Divine Liturgy, and then communed as having become a member of the Eastern Orthodox faith. Both of these families attended my parish for at least two-three years before they decided to "take the plunge" and confess/commune.

 

I consider the Copts, Armenians and Ethiopians "Orthodox" as well, but they are not "Eastern" Orthodox. There are theological differences that go back centuries.

 


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Old 06-24-2011, 08:06 PM
 
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Right.  Its not the same but its very different than other completely non Orthodox people.  I think it also makes a difference as to what you have available to you.  We have many Ethiopian Orthodox churches here but no where for the Aritrians to go (the cannot go to the Ethiopian churches.... I am not sure of the details but there are a lot of wounds that need to be healed.) so we have welcomed them home to our parish.  The Egyptian kid was an exchange student but we really welcomed him...He served in the alter with the Bishops blessing.  Definitely coptic though.

 

That's very interesting about the whole confession communion thing.  It would explain a lot.  


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Old 06-24-2011, 09:03 PM
 
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Right.  Its not the same but its very different than other completely non Orthodox people.  I think it also makes a difference as to what you have available to you.  We have many Ethiopian Orthodox churches here but no where for the Aritrians to go (the cannot go to the Ethiopian churches.... I am not sure of the details but there are a lot of wounds that need to be healed.) so we have welcomed them home to our parish.  The Egyptian kid was an exchange student but we really welcomed him...He served in the alter with the Bishops blessing.  Definitely coptic though.

 

That's very interesting about the whole confession communion thing.  It would explain a lot.  



There is an Ethiopian parish somewhere in my very large metropolitan area. However, the two Ethiopian families wanted English! The Ethiopian parish was a long drive, in any case. Apparently, the liturgical language used in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is not understood at all, or so I'm told, by virtually all of the laity. It's not like the liturgical Greek or Church Slavonic that bear some resemblance (more or less) to the modern Greek and Russian.

 

There's a parish in my diocese that has Eritreans, too, I'm told.


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Old 06-25-2011, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Also how the differences in belief on original sin are related to the differences of belief on Mary's immaculate conception, that one was very interesting to me as I'd never thought that one out to it's conclusion.

 

 



Ok so back to the book. Page 49, the Immaculate Conception. 

 

 

 

Quote:

Yet for the Orthodox, it is not guilt of that is born with, but rather mortality. ....

 

The clearest argument against the immaculate conception, however, is that the Virgin Mary died. 

 

 

 

compared to Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Walter Ott page 199

 

 

 

Quote:
The essence of original sin consists in the lack sanctifying grace, in consequence of the fall of Adam. Mary was preserved from this defect, so that she entered existence in a state of sanctifying grace. referenced in Luke 1, 28

 

 

It seems that the differences in understanding original sin contribute to the differences in understanding of Mary. 

 

Additionally both believe that she was assumed into heaven, so clearly Mary did not have the same kind of "death" as other people. 

 

Arduinna is offline  
Old 06-25-2011, 03:11 PM
 
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No, Mary had the same type of death as other humans, same as her birth and conception were the same. It's what happened AFTER her death that's the difference. She didn't have to wait until the Last Judgment/Resurrection on the Last Day to fully taste of the eternal life. Christ granted it to her right after her death. The iconography of the Dormition shows Christ taking her soul to heaven right away.


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