Join Date: May 2002
Location: Listening to William Control
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|Originally posted by karen ann
I gnash my teeth every time I hear a neo-pagan claiming it as his or her own birthright to claim indignation over. (And I've heard it a lot IRL.)
|Originally posted by Meiri
Actually Tricia, the church courts kept very good records. Very few bothered to look at them in this context until the last several years. 9 million is an unsupportable number even when one takes into account the 2 or more centuries in which burnings and hangings and whatnot went on.
That anyone would be tortured, hanged, burned, whatever for not agreeing with the authorities' religion is something to be angry about, but at this point we're not going to change that history. Given that this went on in parts of continental Europe, I think anyone of European descent can claim something of the heritage, IF they choose. All we can do is learn the facts as scholars uncover them and learn what we can do to change the attitudes that make such events possible.
Those attitudes, sadly, still exist.
|Interestingly, it is possible to document that of all the trials, only one set (in 1390 Milan) involved women tried for practicing rites led by the pagan Goddess Diana. The bulk of the trials between 1400 and 1700 involved diabolism, Luciferianism, and acts relating to the Devil. Before 1400, the majority of trials were focused on the use of magics to harm others, to practice treasonous divination and spells against a monarch.
It is therefore a reasonable assumption to make that the trials and persecutions of the "Burning Times" were not aimed at actual practicing "pagans," but rather at a whole other class of people.
Some were guilty. Most were probably innocent and Christian. A few were "satanists," most were not. Some were just senile. Or too ugly. Or too pretty. Or just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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|And I also do feel that if people are "burned AS witches..." it says something about prejudice.. and it doesn't much matter if they actually WERE witches, in the sense we speak of witches today.|
|Originally posted by asherah
Karen Ann.. and I say this gently.. you sound incredibly angry... to a point that feels to me a little out of proportion.
I can't help wonder if some issues you have with your parents color your view of this?
In any case, what I mourn is also the loss of the polytheists.. and the loss of so much knowledge and tradition. It is why so much Paganism is neccessarily re-constructionist.
And I really don't have to cite "the burning times" to express my overall disgust with much of what Christianity has wrought... (sorry, but I think we are allowed to be truthful in this part of the forum?)
I have PLENTY of other things to talk about if I want to go there.
And I also do feel that if people are "burned AS witches..." it says something about prejudice.. and it doesn't much matter if they actually WERE witches, in the sense we speak of witches today.
That said... MY Paganism is NOT a response to Christianity at all.
I have never BEEN a monotheist.
I came to Paganism when I was called by the Goddess, as I searched for the sacred feminine.
I am sorry for whatever upsets you, Karen Ann. And maybe all the Pagans you knew were exactly as you described.
But I certainly do NOT want to be lumped in with them.
|Originally posted by karen ann
This quote taken from http://www.illusions.com/burning/burnwitc.htm?
|Originally posted by tricia80
I went to this site that u posted... i have only read probably one or two pages as i really should be in bed... but i wanted to make sure i had read some of it...
i dont know what u wanted me to completely take from this website.. and his FAQ is retarded... im sorry he posted some stupid questions...
|Originally posted by asherah
I guess my question is: why even CALL them witches? Why burn people AS witches? My point is that there must be something about the very idea of "witch" that has been threatening to the Christian hierarchy, no? The fact that they labled heretics as "witches" in Europe does say something about the way Christians view "witches," kwim? That's what I meant when I said it didn't matter that the people were not, in fact, witches.
It does matter, of course, for the sake of history... but I still maintain there is SOMETHING in Christianity that has historically used "witches" as a scapegoat... even though the people killed were not actually witches.
Am I making myself clear?
And personally, from MY perspective.. I think it goes back to the Jews stamping out the worship of Asherah.. I think it does go back to Christians stamping out other polytheistic cultures... I think there is an inherent fear of and ignorance about the Goddess and the power of her worship in Christianity (and Judaism to some degree).. and that is why they label undesirables as "witches"..
So while the Burning Times is not a "real" example of the slaughter of witches... it IS a metaphorical one.
Phew. I hope this makes bloody sense.
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
(Whole Chapter: Exodus 22 In context: Exodus 22:17-19)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
(Whole Chapter: Deuteronomy 18 In context: Deuteronomy 18:9-11)
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Samuel 15 In context: 1 Samuel 15:22-24)
2 Kings 9:22
And it came to pass, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 9 In context: 2 Kings 9:21-23)
2 Chronicles 33:6
And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Chronicles 33 In context: 2 Chronicles 33:5-7)
And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
(Whole Chapter: Micah 5 In context: Micah 5:11-13)
Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
(Whole Chapter: Nahum 3 In context: Nahum 3:3-5)
But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
(Whole Chapter: Acts 8 In context: Acts 8:8-10)
And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
(Whole Chapter: Acts 8 In context: Acts 8:10-12)
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(Whole Chapter: Galatians 3 In context: Galatians 3:1-2)
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(Whole Chapter: Galatians 5 In context: Galatians 5:19-21)
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