Join Date: Mar 2002
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I promise you that the average Mormon isn't wilfully disobeying the church's guidance in this matter. I'd never heard of this statement regarding Holocaust victims until I saw this thread. Most of us haven't even done our own family trees, let alone moved on to other people. I don't want people to think that all Mormons are out to sneakily baptize our non-believing neighbours while they have no say in the matter. I didn't even know this was an issue before I saw this thread.
|Originally posted by Kerri-Jean
If our faith is not true (and you obviously don't think it is or you would be a member of it), then the authority by which the ordinances are done is false and powerless over you.
|Originally posted by Kerri-Jean
...I promise you that the average Mormon isn't wilfully disobeying the church's guidance in this matter. I'd never heard of this statement regarding Holocaust victims until I saw this thread...
|Originally posted by Kerri-Jean
...We don't know how many of them would be open to other messages. So to speak for all Jews isn't fair either...
|Originally posted by ldsmama
... Jesus said baptism was essential for salvation. How is that fair to all of God's children who never even heard of Christian baptism?...
|Originally posted by nakagain
I have to just make a quick reply....and I'll find the quote later. The article pointed out that the church has not submitted anymore names since 1995. Some names have been missed and thats why people were still upset...
|And to elaborate on how family history research works--church members and genealogists search out all kinds of records to add to the collection. The records are public and can be accessed at a Family History Library or Center or online http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Sea...eset_search.asp
They are meant to be a resource to individuals researching their own family lines. But the database is available for use by anyone who wants to learn more about their family history.
|Originally posted by EFmom
Ad hominem attacks about Radkey are not germaine to the issue. Why is there an automatic assumption that everyone who has chosen to leave the LDS church is disgruntled? People leave churches all the time for a variety of reasons.
|Originally posted by kama'aina mama
What does her motive matter if her facts are right? The Mormon church was contacted before that Yahoo story was written, it contains a comment from a church leader. If he believed the accusation to be false he certainly could have said so. But I guess if you don't like the message, kill the messenger.
|It seems to me that it's all about higher numbers. "Our's has more ppl than your's "|
|Originally posted by CraftyMommaOf2
It seems to me that it's all about higher numbers. "Our's has more ppl than your's "
|Even (Hillary) Clinton's late father, Hugh Rodham, was posthumously baptized Sept. 5, 2002, something she found out only after her meeting with Hatch, Clinton spokesman Joe Householder said yesterday.|
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|Under the 1995 agreement, the church directed its members not to include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and unapproved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for its "baptisms for the dead," according to documents provided by the LDS Church.
The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.
"It did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," church papers say of the agreement.
Church leaders, who were preparing for the Saturday funeral of Marjorie Pay Hinckley, wife of LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley, were not available for comment Friday.
In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter from church Elder D. Todd Christofferson to Michel, a copy of which was sent to Hatch, Christofferson said the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database.
"That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote. However, 400,000 names of Holocaust victims were removed and the church continues to delete names when asked.
When asked whether that was the case, church spokesman Dale Bills said before the microfilming of records begins, "we clearly inform custodians of genealogical records who we are and what use we will make of the filmed records. Such discussion is a standard element of all negotiations with record-holding organizations."
Mokotoff, who was directly involved in the 1995 agreement with the LDS Church, said he believes church officials agreed to stop the practice as a result of understanding that sensitivity. He said many people have subsequently "mischaracterized the agreement."
"Since 1995, everything they have promised to do they have done." Complaints to the contrary "aren't true," he said. Motokoff says he accesses LDS Church records online about 10 times a year and has personally made requests to have Jewish names removed from the records. He knows of others who have done the same.Every time he has checked to see if the names were removed, "I have found they were honoring their agreement" and the names are removed "quite quickly — within days." Motokoff says he occasionally gets claims from people who say such legendary Jewish figures as David Ben Gurion, Sigmund Freud and Albert Einstein are still listed, but "that was only true prior to 1995. There's a misconception that the church is obligated to scour the IGI looking for Jewish names — but the agreement states only that if they are made aware of it they will delete the names."
The church issued its press release early Friday, with a statement from Elder Christofferson saying that "Surely no one believes this practice forces a change in religious identity of any soul, living or dead. We certainly do not claim that."
That statement, and others regarding the doctrinal rationale for LDS proxy baptism, was deleted from a corrected copy of the release issued later in the day.
|I also do not see any bashing of LDS faith here. Nope.|
|But I do wonder how many Mormons would be working so diligently if it weren't benefitting them directly in their quest to get to the highest level of salvation. I think it's very telling that there is a "reward" attached to this practice that is supposedly motivated only by love.|
|Originally posted by Nemmer
That doesn't seem "bashing" to you? And for the record, we get no "extra points" or "reward" for doing this proxy work. It is a commandment for us to work on it, yes. But it isn't a matter of earning higher salvation by collecting more genealogical information than the next person.
|Originally posted by Zaq001
...I was asked to do baptizisms for the dead at the age of twelve, and it was impressed upon me how important it was for my salvation, to get into the highest form of heaven...
I don't believe that what I said or the other poster said was bashing or hurtful. I think it was an interesting observation about the ritual.
|Originally posted by nakagain
The truth is the church is doing everything to not upset others but still doing what they beleive. The church has the upmost respect for other churchs and people. To think the church would do something to purpously anger and upset others is misguided.
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