If not God, then What? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 4 Old 04-15-2004, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am so glad we have a new forum to discuss "Hot" topics on. I would never have asked this on the regular board b/c I could offend someone. Please know that is not my intention, and I apologize in advance if you are offended

There are alot of churches who preach about the "Holy Spirit" and having the HS, ect. Lots of times I see people express "having the HS" by crying out, falling on the ground in convulsions, speaking in tounges (not another actual language, but mostly incoherant babble). Now, I personally don't believe in this (I'm an atheist) but I do wonder how others discribe the events? Dan Barker was a Charismatic Christian, and believed in this, but later deconverted to an atheist. He talks about his deconversion in his book Losing Faith in Faith. He does not believe that these experiences were real, but more a product of the environment. Also, if the HS is/was real, why does he not manifest himself in other Christian denominations the same as he does in say, and AOG church?
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#2 of 4 Old 04-15-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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Ah I had most of this replay typed out and lost it. On the up side each time I do that my reply usually gets breifer and briefer.

I too am enjoying this new forum and didn't think I would ever come here.

I spent my teen years and the beginning of my life as a Christian in a Charasmatic church. And I was a skeptic. But I truely believe that these manifestations of the Holy Spirit can be real. I have been healed. i have had words of prophesy and wisdom spoken over me and they have proved true. And while i have never spoken in tounges I know that not everyone is faking it, wanting it or even conjuring it up somewhere from deep in thier subconscience. My pastor was doing some work in russia (he is a professor at a seminary there) and after spending 2 weeks messing with a translaotor went to the last service where they were doing a farwell sort of thing (apparently flying russian airlines required great prayer covering :LOL) anyway, out of nowhere the pastor started praying in perfect fluent English. my pastor was miffed because interpreters are niether cheap nor convineint so he confronted them. Asked them why they made him go to the trouble of getting an interpreter. They said they didn't speak english. not a word. But he insisted they were just speaking English when he prayed. His wife laughed and said "He was speaking in tounges, it probably just sounded like english" but no it was defintiely english. I have no doubt that that was the Holy Spirit. i also am convinced that most of what other people say are ministries of the holy Spirit certainly are as real as the pews we were sitting in.

On the other hand, I also think a lot of times they were fake. There is always the prideful and arrogant who have to speak louder, more often and faster while speaking in tounges, who claim that those who don't speak in tounges don't have the Holy Spirit (untrue). There are also those who just get so emotionally charged that they really think they are experiancing something and they are but it from themselves and not the Holy Spirit. I think the Holy Spirit canwork through that though and minister to you all the same. it bothers me the way so many people are chasing the Spirit these days. goingto which ever church has the most fun manifestation. More like a traveling side show. If you are chasing the Holy Spirit perhaps you chould exam why he isn't coming to you. It is sad because I genuinely love these people and it breaks my heart to see them getting further and further away from what is real and what the Holy Spirit wants to do for them only to chase what isn't real, what isn't for them. They are missing so much. But I have gotton of topic.

So to answer your question
:

real yes. I truely believe theHoly Spirit moves in these ways.

fake yes. I truely belive that a lot of what people pass off as the holy Spirit is really the flesh trying to be hoilier than the guy sitting next to them.

I don't think it is always apparent to the person, always an act of deception on the part of the person who is "experiance" i but none the less get yourself wanting somehting bad enough, and emotionally worked up enough and it will come. Especially the trendy things like shaking, laughing, slain in the Spirit, speaking in tounges (especially if you have experianced anything like that for real I htink it is easier to get sucked into it - or maybe not).

I don't know. I am really trying to sort through what was real and what was a lie. I don't think anyone intentionally decieved me and nothing changes the way i felt about God, it didi all work together for my good, and it doesn't change the way I feel about God. I don't think I wil ever mke a charasmatic church my home again. That is not where I am right now. I do like ot visit and be surrounded by that sort of hting. It fels like home. and I know that for every fake there are sincere people who are truely experianceing the breath of God. I am intrested to hear what other people have to say.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#3 of 4 Old 04-16-2004, 12:37 AM
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Hey Free Thinker!

I enjoyed your earlier post of the Church of Christ church! I should probably post over there huh! My neighbors are members of the Church of Christ and wow! nevermind, I should post on that thread!

Anyway, I grew up in the sort of churches you mentioned in your post. I refer to them as Holy Roller churches. I sincerely hope not to offend anyone. I called them Holy Rollers when I went there too!

I actually witnessed several of these 'episodes' (what would you call this?). The spirit was moving so to speak. Actually, at around 15, I observed a woman stand up and begin speaking in tongues. After a few seconds a different woman stood up and began translating what the original person was saying.

Honestly, I have seen people speaking in tongues my entire life!

Did I believe it then? Oh yes, wholeheartedly! Do I believe it now? Absolutely not. Do I believe the participants believed in what they were doing? Yes and I still do.

I realize it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I can't explain it. I do believe these people get 'moved'. By what I don't know. I am beginning to have an understanding of the God Conscience and think that it plays a very large part in these experiences (also faith healing ect).

I won't even get into the discomfort or embarrassment I felt as a child witnessing that.

Hope this helps!

Trying to do the right thing with three kids and a hubby. 
ds20, dd18, ds16

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#4 of 4 Old 04-16-2004, 01:18 AM
 
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We always refered to ourselves as holy rollers and the youth group actually planned to show up at an event in roller skates once just for shock value :LOL We were a bunch of idiots.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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