What is the Orthodox Church? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 92 Old 04-18-2004, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Can someone explain to me what the orthodox church is? And how are say the Greek Orthodox different from the other Orthodox churches??

Is a blending of Catholocism and cultural beliefs?
Arduinna is offline  
#2 of 92 Old 04-18-2004, 10:06 PM
 
DaryLLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Chimpocracy
Posts: 13,708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
One shot at an answer.

It goes back to Constantine, 4th cent CE. He moved the capital of the Roman Empire to the east (better situated for trade) and named the city after himself, Constantinopolis.

At one time, there were 2 competing popes of the church (and a gnostic pope of the non-orthodox church system as well).

Whole there are religious differences, I think the split was more political.
DaryLLL is offline  
#3 of 92 Old 04-18-2004, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What are the differences between the modern Orthodox churches.
Arduinna is offline  
#4 of 92 Old 04-19-2004, 10:24 AM
 
Bekka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
nak

I studied Russian Orthodoxy in some detail in college...in 1054 was a major schism that produced eastern Orthodoxy centered in Constantinople and western Christianity that recognized the pope. While there were several reasons for the schism, a lot of it had to do with icons and their place in worship (whether they qualified as "graven images"). The eastern church had refined iconography to a religious art, and the western church very much believed the people were worshipping pictures.

As far as I know, the major differences in the churches are that each is done it its own language, i.e., Russian Orthodoxy (Pravoslavie) is performed in Old Church Slavonic, which is an old Slavic language. I don't know about Greek, but I know there are Greek Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, etc.

They don't recognize the Pope in Rome, but I think the cohesiveness of the Orthodox church fell when Constantinople did (became Istanbul, now a Turkish, mostly Muslim city, I believe). That's when each of the national church groups took on their own leadership etc.

Russian history, identity and culture developed parallel to the Russian Orthodox church--i.e., the national church. I've read it's similar with Greek, for example.

To make this all very interesting and bring it into perspective, I attended a catholic mass when I was doing comparative analysis, and their little spiritual thought for the day was to give information about the icon used in the Orthodox church and how it could be a focus for spiritual devotional time ...
Bekka is offline  
#5 of 92 Old 04-19-2004, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks Bekka. So there is one organizing body (not sure how to say that) for all the different Orthodox Churches but the biggest difference is the language they use in worship.

ok, interesting.
Arduinna is offline  
#6 of 92 Old 04-20-2004, 10:49 PM
 
Bekka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
yes, I think that's right.

Although it may be like Baptist isn't always equivalent. I don't know about the highest level of church leadership, i.e., who they recognize.
Bekka is offline  
#7 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 12:15 AM
 
kama'aina mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Watching Top Chef, eating Top Ramen
Posts: 21,301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I want to say some/ all the Orthodox churches follow a different worship calender than the Roman church. They don't use the Gregorian Calender, they use an older one. I remember a woman I worked with a number of years ago was Orthodox (don't know any more than that, she was from Bosnia if that means anything) and she celebrated Easter a few weeks after I did.
kama'aina mama is offline  
#8 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
interesting Kama, so do they follow the Julian calendar or a different one?

hmmmmm
Arduinna is offline  
#9 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 02:06 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is totally off the top of my head, could be wrong, but I think their calendar is more lunar. Heard once that Orthodox Easter always always falls in or around Passover. Which goes by the Jewish/lunar calendar.

Or something along those lines.
merpk is offline  
#10 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 02:33 AM
 
kama'aina mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Watching Top Chef, eating Top Ramen
Posts: 21,301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
If they do it that way merpk, it would make a lot of sense. I have never understood the rather pagan seeming way that Easter is designated. How do you know when Passover is?
kama'aina mama is offline  
#11 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 07:15 AM
 
DaryLLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Chimpocracy
Posts: 13,708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dating Easter Sunday--Paschal full moons, ecclesiastical full moons, Gregorian and Julian calendars, leap yrs, etc.

You'd need a calculator!

http://www.assa.org.au/edm.html#List20

or

http://quasar.as.utexas.edu/BillInfo...Calendars.html

A whole lot of mathematical calculations, followed by:


Quote:
If you pay attention to the dates of Easter and Passover from year to year, you will notice that although they usually fall within a week or so of each other, on occasion Passover falls about a month after (Gregorian) Easter. At the present time, this happens in in the 3rd, 11th, and 14th years of the Metonoic Cycle (i.e., when the Golden Number equals 3, 11, or 14). The reason for this discrepancy is the fact that although the Metonic Cycle is very good, it is not perfect (as we've seen in this course). In particular, it is a little off if you use it to predict the length of the tropical year. So, over the centuries the date of the vernal equinox, as predicted by the Metonic Cycle, has been drifting to later and later dates. So, the rule for Passover, which was originally intended to track the vernal equinox, has gotten a few days off. In ancient times this was never a problem since Passover was set by actual observations of the Moon and of the vernal equinox. However, after Hillel II standardized the Hebrew calendar in the 4th century, actual observations of celestial events no longer played a part in the determination of the date of Passover. The Gregorian calendar reform of 1582 brought the Western Church back into conformity with astronomical events, hence the discrepancy.

Similarly, you will notice that in many years Gregorian Easter (the one marked on all calendars) differs from Julian (Orthodox) Easter, sometimes by a week, sometimes by a month. Again, this is due to the different rules of calculation. A major difference is that Orthodox Easter uses the old Julian calendar for calculation, and the date of the Vernal Equinox is slipping later and later on the Julian calendar relative to the Gregorian calendar (and to astronomical fact). Also, the date of Paschal Full Moon for the Julian calculation is about 4 days later than that for the Gregorian calculation. At present, in 5 out of 19 years in the Metonic Cycle--the years when the Golden Number equals 3, 8, 11, 14 and 19--Orthodox Easter occurs a month after Gregorian Easter. In three of these years, Passover also falls a month after Gregorian Easter (see above).
If you are still with me, this year the orthodox and catholic Easters fell on the same date. Just coincidently.

DaryLLL is offline  
#12 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 08:00 AM
 
asherah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Swimming in the cauldron of rebirth
Posts: 2,848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OT:
I've been reading a whopping two-volume biography of the Medicis.
It spans the time of the fall of Constantinople...

And at one point.. there were actually THREE popes.

They ALL got deposed during inter-city fighting in Italy.. and a new one was appointed.
asherah is offline  
#13 of 92 Old 04-21-2004, 02:31 PM
 
kama'aina mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Watching Top Chef, eating Top Ramen
Posts: 21,301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Go Darylll! Thank you.
kama'aina mama is offline  
#14 of 92 Old 04-21-2005, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
very interesting.

anyone have anything else to share?
Arduinna is offline  
#15 of 92 Old 04-21-2005, 01:40 PM
 
DaryLLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Chimpocracy
Posts: 13,708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey Ard, this thread is exactly one year old. You can't fool me!
DaryLLL is offline  
#16 of 92 Old 04-21-2005, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:LOL I wasn't trying to fool anyone

I noticed we had another thread about Greek Orthodox and thought I could attract some action here.
Arduinna is offline  
#17 of 92 Old 04-21-2005, 04:27 PM
 
Unagidon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here is a link that lays out the basic differences in excruciating detail. (But note the cute little dig at the end).

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Theologically the Roman Church is pretty close to the others. The main theological differences are in the subtle idea of whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (Orthodox) or the Father and the Son (Catholic) and the concept of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, which is rejected by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox don’t like the idea of papal infallibility in that they think that big decisions need to be decided in a synod. The stuff about icons, vestments, and even married priests is not considered relevant to the theological dispute and in fact, for the “Uniate” churches, which are former Orthodox parishes now aligned with Rome, the rites and customs are almost identical to Orthodox rites and customs down to married priests.

On the other hand, there is a lot of history between the two that will be harder to overcome than the theology. Greeks blame Rome for the sack of Constantinople in the 13th century, which they feel so weakened the Byzantine state that it never recovered. Russians are suspicious of Catholics through their historical relations with Poland (especially), where Poles established Uniate churches in any formerly Orthodox areas (such as western Ukraine and Byelorussia) that they controlled.

There is a commission that has been set up to try to bring the churches into communion. Right now they are not, which means that Catholics can’t take Communion at Orthodox Churches and vice versa. But it could come.

Interestingly, there is also a movement for the Anglican Church to join the Orthodox churches as an Orthodox congregation.
Unagidon is offline  
#18 of 92 Old 04-21-2005, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the link, very interesting.
Arduinna is offline  
#19 of 92 Old 04-21-2005, 11:39 PM
 
Persephone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, I'm glad this thread was brought up, I was wondering this exact thing yesterday!
Persephone is offline  
#20 of 92 Old 04-22-2005, 01:48 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Dating Easter Sunday--Paschal full moons, ....If you are still with me, this year the orthodox and catholic Easters fell on the same date. Just coincidently.
Yes, and this year they do not.

I was raised Catholic, converted to Judaism and teach now in a Greek Orthodox Church School...I love this place!!

The Western Easter is the first Sunday of the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. (Sounds kind of pagan to me, JMHO)

The Eastern/Orthodox Easter is the first Sunday after the Jewish Passover Festival, the idea being that Jesus celebrated the Passover Seder before his cruxifixion, being the observant Jew that he was...

-or-

As my Orthodox teaching partner said to me,"He had to eat before they could kill him...."

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#21 of 92 Old 04-22-2005, 01:52 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Regarding icons, I always liked the idea that an icon was used - something two dimensional - for focusing thoughts during devotions. That way no "graven image" was used.

The Catholic Church has outright statues and lifesized figures in their churches for their devotions...in the Catholic School High School my son attended, the chapel had a life-sized, three-dimensional Jesus hanging on the cross, over the altar; I thought it was extremely imposing and kind of scary, even though I was raised in this religion.

How is this not idol worship or graven images?

I guess it is all in the eyes/mind/soul of the worshipper.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#22 of 92 Old 04-22-2005, 10:54 AM
 
Unagidon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
How is this not idol worship or graven images?
Catholics aren't worshipping the image, that's why it is not idol worship.
Unagidon is offline  
#23 of 92 Old 04-22-2005, 06:19 PM
 
calpurnia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: south of the thames
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't forget the Armenian Orthodox Church!

There were quite a few Armenian Orthodox girls at my school, & their Christmas always seemed to fall in early January, when we were back at school, so they would get a few extra days off.
calpurnia is offline  
#24 of 92 Old 04-22-2005, 11:24 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
I do believe that Armenia was the very first Christian nation.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#25 of 92 Old 04-22-2005, 11:31 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unagidon
Catholics aren't worshipping the image, that's why it is not idol worship.
I am talking about two- -vs- three-dimensional representations of a saint or diety.

The pp (#4) said there was a controversy between the Eastern and Western Churches over the icons and their place in worship and whether or not they were graven images.

I simply stated that the statue, IMHO, was more of an "idol" than a picture.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#26 of 92 Old 04-23-2005, 09:45 PM
 
Unagidon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I am talking about two- -vs- three-dimensional representations of a saint or diety.

The pp (#4) said there was a controversy between the Eastern and Western Churches over the icons and their place in worship and whether or not they were graven images.

I simply stated that the statue, IMHO, was more of an "idol" than a picture.
I think that you are talking about two different things. There is a convention for religious images in the Orthodox East and you can read about it in the link I posted above.

The controversy you are referring to regarding images as idolatry was the iconoclast controversy within the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the eighth and ninth centuries. Iconoclasm was a demand that ALL images, including icons, be destroyed. The Catholic Pope defended the creation of images at this time, but if you are familiar with Western religious art of this period, it is also usually two-dimensional.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm
Unagidon is offline  
#27 of 92 Old 08-16-2007, 02:10 PM
 
AngelBee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brighton, MN
Posts: 20,762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

AngelBee is offline  
#28 of 92 Old 08-16-2007, 03:18 PM
 
lilyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 18,340
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
HI

I am currently converting to the Orthodox church.

there is a lot of misinformation, misunderstanding, superstition etc about the Eastern Orthodox church. Most of it spread by people who only have an axe to grind against it but have never really studied it, worshiped with it, or sought to understand the cultures and history that it came form. i have seen a lot of that inthis thread already and it saddens but doesn't surprise me.

i am by no means an expert.

but I do have a lot of resources and can clear up some of the confusion.

first here are some web sites that will answer a million questions:
for inquirers
promartyr
OCA (the question and answer section is great. If you have questions that don't get answered here I have heard he is very good about answering them)
Compare and contrast
The Russian Orthodox church
Church History in a nut shell
Orthodox info
We even have our own Wiki
Giving the Greeks a fair share
If you want to find a church to visit
Just because I love these guys
You can talk to a convert if you want to know why they left thier church for the Orthodox faith

and that should get you started . . .

there are also some great books i would recommend.
The best though is The Orthodox Church by Bishop Ware

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

lilyka is offline  
#29 of 92 Old 08-16-2007, 03:41 PM
 
lilyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 18,340
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Can someone explain to me what the orthodox church is? And how are say the Greek Orthodox different from the other Orthodox churches??

Is a blending of Catholocism and cultural beliefs?
Ok I was trying to do this all in one post but I give up. please forgive the million posts that are about to follow. If I lose my response one more time I am going to snap . . .

the different churches vary mostly by culture. The big stuff (and a lot of it is big stuff) is all the same.

it is not Catholicism. The Catholic church broke off from the One church when the pope claimed authority he didn't have and started changing doctrine. You will see a lot of new RC doctrines introduced and or canonized right after the RC broke off. interestingly enough they are the ones people seem to have the most trouble with including papal infallibility and immaculate conception . I would say the RC has more in common with protestantism the Orthodoxy as RC and the protestant church are two sides of the same coin.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

lilyka is offline  
#30 of 92 Old 08-16-2007, 03:42 PM
 
lilyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 18,340
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
What are the differences between the modern Orthodox churches.
there is little difference between eastern Orthodox churches. I know we are not in communion with the Oriental orthodox church but i haven't got a clue why (although a google search should quickly bring it up).

it looks crazy in America because we didn't follow the trend. usually the Orthodox would come into an area and th population would begin to worship with them. it was always important that it was their faith and their church. everything would be done in their language, and as soon as they were stable they would break from their mother church and form their own overseeing body. It was a very natural growth process and mostly went smoothly.

Missionary parishes in the US went the same way and we do have the Orthodox Church of America (which was released from the Russian church but not all Russian churches wanted to break from the Russian church so then what was once under the leader ship of one is now under the leadership of two but it is kinda a wash now because the ROCOR is back in communion and i believe under the Russian church so now what was two is 1 so it all balances out. except for a lot of people are upset by this. but I still think the good outweighs the bad). but we also have all the others . . . . why? because we are a nation made of of immigrants. The immigrant parishes obviously wanted to worship in their language and retain their traditions and cultures. they looked to their fathers for help and were more than happy to be under them. and before you know it we have a mall geographical area with a bunch of Orthodox churches all under different leadership. This seems to be hugely controversial but I personally don't have a problem with it. i just wish everyone would work together more.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

lilyka is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off