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#1 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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for Christ's death.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/122/story_12259_1.html

Quote:
Survey: More Americans Believe Jews Culpable for Christ's Death

A new survey released today by the Pew Research Center for People and the Press finds that 26% of Americans believe Jews are responsible for Christ's death. Pew compares this to a 1997 ABC News survey, which found 19% believed Jews are responsible. The increase is most substantial among Americans under 30 and African-Americans, who believe Jews are responsible at a rate of 34% and 42%, respectively. The number of people that believe the Bible is the literal word of God has also jumped, according to the survey. A June 1996 survey found 35% believe so; this year's survey found 40% believe the Bible is the literal word of God.
And we have Pat Robertson and Mel Gibson to thank!
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#2 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 09:32 AM
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The number of people that believe the Bible is the literal word of God has also jumped, according to the survey. A June 1996 survey found 35% believe so; this year's survey found 40% believe the Bible is the literal word of God.
It is hopeless.

What is up with the young people (under 30s)? What happened to America's youth?

OT: Is Mel going to make the film on St. Francis?
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#3 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 09:41 AM
 
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I really want to see the film so I have a leg to stand on when I bash it. I am a Christian, I do believe in Christ and all that jazz, but I do not, from what I've seen, believe that the film is an accurate depiction of what happened AT ALL. I haven't gone to see it because I don't want to add another ticket stub to the pile.

This isn't surprising. Everyone runs around talking about how everyone has their own opinion and the right to express it. This is what happens when someone with a lot of money expresses their opinion in the form of a major motion picture.

I'd like to see a movie about the Spainish Inquisition.
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#4 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 09:52 AM
 
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This is disturbing, although sadly not surprising. Does this mean that Americans believe that all Jews are responsible... or just perhaps one guy (or a few guys)who happened to be of the Jewish faith?

What I've never understood is if people do believe this...and are Christian...shouldn't they be grateful to the Jews? I mean... if you're Christian... without Jesus's death, there is no salvation. Jesus had to die, so to speak... to be the perfect sacrifice to attone for the sins of humanity. And, of course, let's not forget that Jesus was Jewish... a Jewish Rabbi, no less.

St. Francis rocks. At one time in my spiritual journey, I was interested in a secular Franciscan Order (Anglican)... I think it was called the Third Order or something like that. Is there really talk about Mel making a film about his life?

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#5 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 10:12 AM
 
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Originally posted by umsami
What I've never understood is if people do believe this...and are Christian...shouldn't they be grateful to the Jews? I mean... if you're Christian... without Jesus's death, there is no salvation. Jesus had to die, so to speak... to be the perfect sacrifice to attone for the sins of humanity. And, of course, let's not forget that Jesus was Jewish... a Jewish Rabbi, no less.
Good point. I'd never thought of it that way.
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#6 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 12:16 PM
 
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Originally posted by umsami

What I've never understood is if people do believe this...and are Christian...shouldn't they be grateful to the Jews? I mean... if you're Christian... without Jesus's death, there is no salvation. Jesus had to die, so to speak... to be the perfect sacrifice to attone for the sins of humanity.
:LOL I've been saying this since I was 9 years the (the first time I got into such a discussion with a Christian [adult]). Boy does that one stump them! They generally start backpedaling and mumbling about free will, but when I point out that earlier in the same conversation they had decided that God was omniscient and that therefore there was no free will, they get very confused and stop talking to me. :LOL I confuse Christians to pieces. :LOL :

The only answers I've gotten to that question have been absolutely laughable, and the people giving them know they sound ridiculous. They've just never given that much thought to their religious beliefs and are really offended that I (a Jew) have a more sound argument, which they don't know how to refute. The conversations usually end with "Could I pray for your soul?" I always say yes; I can use all the prayers I get, even if they're coming from a misguided heart. :LOL

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#7 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 03:04 PM
 
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Pardon the cynicism.

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#8 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 05:42 PM
 
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Originally posted by playdoh
It is hopeless.

What is up with the young people (under 30s)? What happened to America's youth?

OT: Is Mel going to make the film on St. Francis?
There is nothing wrong with believing that the Bible is the literal word of God. People have every right to believe that if they want. Unless this belief is misused it doesn't hurt anybody and *any* belief can be misused.

Also as a person who is under thirty I find the statement that there is something wrong with young people to be unfair. I am not anti-Jew and the majority of people my age are not anti-Jew. All we can do with the others is try to educate them. Young people are still at a time in their lives when their views are not completely decided and their experiences are more limited. Its a perfect time to educate.
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#9 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 05:45 PM
 
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Americans really do seem to take the cake when it comes to having whacky christians. I suppose the same can be said for the middle east with their whacky muslims (i.e. non representative of the true aspects of either of these peace-based faiths). But wow, it really expresses itself in bizarre ways here.

isn't this also one of the only countries in the world where creationism is taught as a science? <snicker>

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#10 of 30 Old 04-22-2004, 06:58 PM
 
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I haven't seen the movie. I have read the book. (Okay, that was a joke.)

What I don't get: whoever was "responsible" for the crucifixtion of Jesus Christ had to have died what around 2000 years ago? What in the name of cheese does that have to do with anyone alive today. Seriously. Can someone explain this to me? Whether it was some nasty collaborators with the Romans, some nasty folks trying to hold their own position, Pilate, the puppet "king" the Romans put in charge (Herod's successor?), Judas. Why would it matter?

And why aren't we grateful to whoever is "responsible." Don't we Christians get eternal life out of this deal?

Are people thinking it would have worked out differently if whoever was "responsible" recognized Jesus Christ as the Son of G-d?

I'm not being facetious. I live amongst the fundamentalist Christians. I've never had anybody say anything about it to my face so I can't ask them. Does anyone here understand (not saying agree with) the idea that contemporary Jews (or Italians I guess) have any relationship at all with the crucifixtion?
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#11 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 02:21 AM
 
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Piglet68, if Europe wasn't already a worse place for Jews than the US, I'd agree with your post. But the USA does not have a monopoly on anti-Semitic meshugas (nonsense) ...

Again I say

Though I do that shrugging with the full understanding that this particular canard was used to justify torture, mass murder and severe oppression for 2,000 ... and with the full understanding that in much of the world, opinions haven't changed any.

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#12 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 02:23 AM
 
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I don't get it and I never will. I don't see how anyone who actually read the book can come away from it (or the movie for that matter) with the idea that a specific group of people were responsible for Jesus' death. I mean for pete's sake people He Himself said, "I lay down my life and I take it up again." And yes, Jesus was a Jewish man with a Jewish mama who came from a Jewish bloodline all the way back to Abraham and Adam. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be having the discussion anyway. People will take anything and twist it to mean something entirely different. I will never understand it.
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#13 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 05:23 AM
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indie, I never said someone had no right to believe anything they choose. Not sure where you might have got that but I never wrote that.

And sorry, there is a huge problem (and history of problems) stemming from Biblical literalism. Check out the thread on whipping children in Activism.

Thankfully, there is also an uprising (and Ron Howard film!) going on in the US, liberating some minds from the literalism chains. I'm very excited about that.

merpk is right, btw.
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#14 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 06:10 AM
 
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i will say that a local radio station every day asks 'how many jews have been attacked due to the movie The Passion". Zero to date.

"how many synagogues have reported hate crimes since the release of the movie The Passion". Zero to date

"How many reports have there been of Jewish children suffering physical attacks by their peers since the release of The Passion". Zero to date.

it goes on and on. So I am not sure I believe for a moment that the movie is to "blame" for any increase in the belief that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ - whether or not you believe the depiction of the Jewish government as corrupt was correct or not.

Coming from a place where I believe most government then and now is corrupt I have no issue saying that the Jewish government of the time was instrumental in leading to Christs death on the cross. There were basically only two kinds of people living there at the time... Jews and Romans. So um, I'd have to say that the Jews and Romans of the time physically led to His death. But since it was supposed to happen, HAD to happen then there is no one to "blame" anyway. He laid His life down of his own accord and had to die for us to have eternal life. (as other posters already said)

As far as blaming the movie or Mel Gibson for this alleged increase in americans blaming Jews for Christs death? I think thats a crock. Its like saying we should blame Mike Myers for kids thrashing their houses after seeing the Cat in the Hat.

and I thought Mels movie was great. The acting, the direction, the camera work and lighting, the use of Aramaic was astounding, the flashback scenes very well done, his take on Satan extremely interesting... i thought as a film it was done extremely well. Even if one does not like the content or the amount of violence or how the director played out the plot.

rambling. going to bed.
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#15 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 06:29 AM
 
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Originally posted by Colorful~Mama
i will say that a local radio station every day asks 'how many jews have been attacked due to the movie The Passion". Zero to date.

"how many synagogues have reported hate crimes since the release of the movie The Passion". Zero to date

"How many reports have there been of Jewish children suffering physical attacks by their peers since the release of The Passion". Zero to date.

it goes on and on. So I am not sure I believe for a moment that the movie is to "blame" for any increase in the belief that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ - whether or not you believe the depiction of the Jewish government as corrupt was correct or not.

Where do you live? Because that's definately not the case around here.

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#16 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 08:33 AM
 
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How could your radio station possibly know that?

Do you have any idea how difficult and controversial the whole issue of keeping hate crime statistics is?

Many of the more reliable sources wouldn't have even PUBLISHED statistics for that time period yet.

There have been occaisional reports across my desk of Jewish kids being harrassed at school since the movie came out..
and of hate signs on churches and some vandalism..

But I can't find statistics for that time period yet... and I do know where to look.
So I have no IDEA how this radio station could possible support such a statement.

By all means, please let me know how they did their research. I'd be really interested.
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#17 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 08:48 AM
 
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There have been no reports locally of anything like that here either. Or in my father's hometown (I ask). I also haven't seen anything on the national news (the Big 3, MSNBC, Fox and CNN) and you know as well as I do that they'd jump on something like that in a heartbeat. Around here they'd report on it until Christ's return and still run editorials on it after. So perhaps it depends on where you are.
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#18 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 08:58 AM
 
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No, actually, the fact that it has not been reported does not mean it did not happen. That is a huge logical fallacy.

Lots of things happen that don't get reported for various reasons.

And.. the fact that YOU haven't heard it.. or that your father hasn't heard it... doesn't mean it anything. Unless you and your father sit and monitor every news channel and paper 24/7.
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#19 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 09:07 AM
 
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I never said it didn't happen, I said nothing like that had been reported here or there. I don't understand why an attack wouldn't be reported to the police, however, and that's where my confusion lies. Coming from a news reporting background I can remember combing through police reports for stuff to air. They do it every day. So if people don't call the cops or at least an insurance agent who would call for a criminal investigation in the case of vandalism or desecration, how do they expect to get things to stop? So again I say maybe it depends on where you are.
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#20 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 09:19 AM
 
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As many people know here.. I have been a journalist for 17 years.. and currently work at a major national news network.

But thanks for the journalism 101 reminder.

Yes, it does vary by where you are.
There are vast variations in how hate crimes are treated, how they are reported and how the statistics are compiled. There is variation in whether such crimes end up in the same PILE as the traffic accidents and domestic violence calls. Or how it is called on the police scanner. There are a million reasons why certain things get picked up on and others don't. Since you are an experienced journalist, I'd expect you to know that.

The fact is that it is WAY too soon to know how and if there's been an increase or decrease in hate crimes against Jews since the movie.

And it will be nearly impossible to prove conclusively that the rate of hate crimes.. whatever it is for the time period.. is directly related to the movie, as opposed to other factors.

However.. the survey in the OP is a poll on attitudes, not a compilation of hate crime statistics. Take it or leave it on its own merits.

All the rest of this stuff is sheer speculation at this point. No one's anecdotal experiences or knowlege of how the media work either prove or disprove anything.
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#21 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hm, I didn't mean to make this into another Passion thread. My POV is, the tenor of attitudes in the world in general and US specifically is: fundamentalism, literalism is on the increase, at the same time as other people are leaving "liberal" Xtian churches in droves. Seems liberal Xtians are just getting disgusted with being lumped in with "righteous" literalists and would rather just give Xtianity a pass and become atheist, agnostic or join some other non-Xtian religious group.

Bishop Spong has done a lot of research into this problem and is well worth reading.

He feels the upsurge of fundamentalism is kind of a last gasp of a dying breed. He points to the feminism of the 20th and 21st centuries fighting the patriarchy as being a root cause of the new direction Xtianity is taking.

He predicts the US will have a woman president in 25 yrs or less, and the Catholic Church will allow female clergy in 10 yrs.

Pertinent books:

Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism

Why Christianity Must Change or Die

A New Christianity for a New World : Why Traditional Faith is Dying & How a New Faith is Being Born


Karen Armstrong's s Battle for God and A History of Godalso address this issue.

review of Battle on amazon:

Quote:
About 40 years ago popular opinion assumed that religion would become a weaker force and people would certainly become less zealous as the world became more modern and morals more relaxed. But the opposite has proven true, according to theologian and author Karen Armstrong (A History of God), who documents how fundamentalism has taken root and grown in many of the world's major religions, such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Even Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism have developed fundamentalist factions. Reacting to a technologically driven world with liberal Western values, fundamentalists have not only increased in numbers, they have become more desperate, claims Armstrong, who points to the Oklahoma City bombing, violent anti-abortion crusades, and the assassination of President Yitzak Rabin as evidence of dangerous extremes.
Yet she also acknowledges the irony of how fundamentalism and Western materialism seem to urge each other on to greater excesses.
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#22 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 01:00 PM
 
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I'd like to see a movie about the Spanish Inquisition.
Me too!!

now that I would go see
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#23 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 01:06 PM
 
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Can I ask a question that sounds irrelevant, but it isn't?



How many here posting have heard of the hate crimes against Muslims in the US in the year following 9/11? All of us, right? And we all felt pretty awful about it, I know.

In that period, there were 400+ hate crimes against Muslims in the US.

During that exact same period, how many here posting heard any press about hate crimes against Jews in the US? Maybe one or two here or there, right?

Well, in that exact same period, there were 1,000+ ... yes, over one thousand ... hate crimes against Jews in the US. And since the population of Muslims in the US has surpassed the number of Jews, that's statistically more hate crimes per person per Jew, if you get my drift.






So. Are they not being reported? Or are they so much more common that it's under the radar screen?





Is every racist hate crime against African Americans in the US reported? No. Obviously. We'd be overwhelmed, with no room in the press for any other news stories, probably.




And BTW, in NYC there have been quite a few more. Anecdotal evidence ... including my own experiences with nastiness from strangers ... is that it's up. Way up. Since 2004 began.



And I don't blame His Holiness Sir Mel. He's just of a piece with it all ...
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#24 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I also mentioned Pat Robertson, meaning to include others of his ilk, like Falwell, and the Grahams, pere et fils.

Name your televangelist.

Gibson's movie is a symptom, not a cause, of anti-Semitism and the rise of fundamentalism. (As Armstrong and Spong elucidate.)

Oddly, fundamentalism is breaking down the Catholic/Protestant enmity.

"Fascinating." (Spock raises eyebrow)

playdoh said:

Quote:
Thankfully, there is also an uprising (and Ron Howard film!) going on in the US, liberating some minds from the literalism chains. I'm very excited about that.
The Da Vinci Code (on which Howard's movie will be based) has been on the best seller list for what, 1 1/2 yrs or something? People are thinking for themselves, questioning. It is healthy.

Elzabet said:

Quote:
I don't get it and I never will. I don't see how anyone who actually read the book can come away from it (or the movie for that matter) with the idea that a specific group of people were responsible for Jesus' death.
Most people who ID as Xtian have not read the book. They have been exposed to certain verses and stories, as interpreted from the pulpit.

Scenario

Pastor: (in a convincing tone) This is what we believe, flock.

Congregation: (thinking of literal hellfire and the football game later) Amen.

Or they may not have been exposed to much of anything, except for maybe at Xmas and Easter, never really think about God or Jesus or the good news, but just call themsleves Xtian by default.

The above would not apply to anyone on this board or thread. If you didn't care, you would not be reading or posting here.
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#25 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 01:32 PM
 
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So. Are they not being reported? Or are they so much more common that it's under the radar screen?
Thank you, Amy. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.

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#26 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 01:43 PM
 
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... by DaryLLL
... Gibson's movie is a symptom, not a cause, of anti-Semitism and the rise of fundamentalism ...

(though wishing that little nodding guy was frowning)

That is absolutely correct, IMNSVHO.
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#27 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 05:18 PM
 
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Originally posted by playdoh
indie, I never said someone had no right to believe anything they choose. Not sure where you might have got that but I never wrote that.
I know you didn't mean it that way. Sorry about the way I worded it.

Quote:
Originally posted by DaryLLL Most people who ID as Xtian have not read the book. They have been exposed to certain verses and stories, as interpreted from the pulpit.
Unfortunately this is true.

Merpk: I know I'm asking this just before the Sabbath so I won't get an answer for a while, but could you give us more info. about where you got your stats. I'm not questioning their veracity, I'm just interested.





Sometimes hate crimes aren't reported to the police because the police are the ones doing it. My brother has been a victim of police prejudice more times than I can count. But that's kind of off topic.
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#28 of 30 Old 04-23-2004, 06:14 PM
 
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I'm unable to link this article. Sorry about the length!

mod note - here's the link, I have snipped the article
click here for the entire article
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


James Caviezel and director Mel Gibson on the set of "The Passion of the Christ."
Mel Gibson: Arab world messiah
"The Passion" sells out theaters, spreads through $1 bootlegs, and fuels more claims of Jewish villainy.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Michelle Goldberg

April 6, 2004 | AMMAN, Jordan -- Mel Gibson's "The Passion" has been playing on four screens at the Mecca Mall here for nearly three weeks, but the front desk employee at my hotel still suggested that I get to the theater an hour early to buy tickets for a Sunday evening show. She had seen it the night before in a sold-out theater and pronounced it "really amazing."

....

At the theater, Amin was enthusing about Gibson-inspired transcendence. "A lot of Muslims come to see what Christians think about the Christ," she said. "When Christians watch this movie, a lot of them come out crying. This film is very important to a lot of people. This film is making history."

Is it making people angrier with the Jews?

"Yeah," she said. "Yes, of course."
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#29 of 30 Old 04-24-2004, 12:08 AM
 
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Just some random thoughts:

It is too true that many people who identify themselves as Christians haven't "read the book" and have been exposed to selected verses interpreted from the pulpit - maybe I am just sensitive tonight, but let's remember that the problem here is that people keep their exposure limited, not necessarily that any interpretation coming from a pulpit is automatically a bad thing(although I know a lot of it is!). There is some good preaching and educating going on in some churches, but many people want the easy way, not the thinking, wrestling with truth and ideas way. My husband is a church minister and there are people who do not like being told to think! Thay want him to tell them what to think, especially on Christmas and Easter when the church is full. Boy does it bother them when he doesn't co-operate:LOL Oops - DaryLLL, I just re-read your post and see you addressed that. I really should go to bed.

Please tell me it isn't true about Gibson making a film about Francis of Assisi. What will he do this time?

I totally agree about the rise of fundamentalism being a major issue today - and I find it ironic how the fundamentalists are saying that the liberals are taking control of the world. Sigh. Is there any hope for peace?

And why are people so anxious to say "show me the numbers" in regards to anti-Semitism? Are they really just asking for proof that it even exists? Don't they get it?

Really, I want to know - is there any hope for peace on this planet?
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#30 of 30 Old 04-24-2004, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Shantimama
Oops - DaryLLL, I just re-read your post and see you addressed that. I really should go to bed.
Heh.

Quote:
Please tell me it isn't true about Gibson making a film about Francis of Assisi. What will he do this time?
Did a google on it. google, it's a good thing.

The Franciscan Friars have started a petition to Mel to ask him to do it. That's it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4790630/

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Really, I want to know - is there any hope for peace on this planet?
I feel your pain. It comes from within, peace.
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