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#1 of 25 Old 05-22-2004, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I hope this is a good place for me to ask this. I’ve always wondered about using ‘Palestine’ to refer to Israel. I realize that there are many ways and reasons that this is done but I would appreciate your input. (BTW, I have absolutely NO political agenda in this question!)

A good example I saw was an article in MM about Waldorf (Feb or March 2004, maybe). They were listing all the countries in the world that have Waldorf schools and listed Palestine but not Israel. My Israeli friend said that there is a Waldorf in Israel and assumed that the wording was a political statement.

Could anyone explain the different aspects of this? Thanks.

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#2 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yea, I know it can be used as a political statement but I’m wondering about the nature of the statements. I tried to do some internet searches for this and I was surprised that some Christians refer to Israel as Palestine, which I imagine has a much different philosophy than when a Palestinian does the same thing.

Also, I wonder if the statement varies in “extremity”. Does one person use it to refer to wanting Israel to leave “just” occupied territories and another person refer to not recognizing Israel at all?

Did anyone see that article in MM? The article was completely non-political but there was that statement without any other information so I don’t even know what the statement meant, YK? Thoughts?

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#3 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 01:24 PM
 
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I may be totally off-base, but I have always been under the impression that Israel is the nation, as defined by its people, and that Palestine is defined by an area of land.
The Israelites would still be Israelites with or without a physical country that can be drawn out on a map.
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#4 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 01:31 PM
 
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Palestine was the name given by the Romans to the land of Israel. After they conquered it they tried to "de-Judaize" the area for political reasons and thus called the area "Palestine" , the name being derived from the Philistines that had lived in the coastal region. They also changed the name of Jerusalem as well as built a temple to a Roman god on the temple mount. Successive conquers after the Romans continued to call the area Palestine.

I also initially thought that the Palestine statement was political, but found that there is a Waldorf school in Bethlehem, which is under the Palestinian Authority. While I still suspect that it was political to call the area "Palestine" as if there is a country called such, it seems they weren't refering to the Waldorf schools in Israel.
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#5 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 03:07 PM
 
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Actually, the term "Palestine" is the western(Romanized) pronunciation of "Filisteen" from Semitic languages. That is why in the Tanakh(which is in Hebrew) you find the term "Philistine" referring the the indigenous inhabitants of that land.

The Kingdom of Israel was a seperate entity from the Kingdom of Judea, Judea being the Hebrew kingdom that followed the Torah. The Kingdom of Israel, however, "whored"(in the words of the Nevi'im) itself to the idols of the Goyim(Gentile) nations. Interesting that the Zionists, who took the Goyim nations for their Messiah, chose to call their state after the kingdom of Israel and not the kingdom of Judea...

Traditionally, in the Tanakh, "Yisrael" refers to B'nai Yisrael(Children of Israel) and not a parcel of land. Thus, no matter where the Children of Israel would go, they would still be the nation of Israel. That would not just be Jews(Y'hudim) which only refers to the tribe of Judah(Y'hudah).

It is very interesting that the Zionists who decided to petition for the formation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine consciously decided to disobey the Talmudic three oaths that prohibit the Children of Israel from returning to Palestine without the rise of Mashiach(the Messiah). It is those very oaths that have led many Jews to stand against Zionism... Jews Against Zionism

Not only do MUSLIMS not recognize "Israel," but many Jews do not either... for they see the establishment of the Zionist state and Zionism to be contrary to the aspirations of the Children of Israel and the faith of the Jewish People.
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#6 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 03:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aminah
It is very interesting that the Zionists who decided to petition for the formation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine consciously decided to disobey the Talmudic three oaths that prohibit the Children of Israel from returning to Palestine without the rise of Mashiach(the Messiah). It is those very oaths that have led many Jews to stand against Zionism... Jews Against Zionism

Not only do MUSLIMS not recognize "Israel," but many Jews do not either... for they see the establishment of the Zionist state and Zionism to be contrary to the aspirations of the Children of Israel and the faith of the Jewish People.
Not only is the word "many" a stretch (and I am one of those Orthodox Jews who supposedly, according to your sources, should be rejecting the state of Israel), but it would be quite correct to say that it is a miniscule minority of Jews that stand against zionism.

Your post is so riddled with inaccuracies based on faulty sources that I'm not sure where to start. I have to take my dd to her b-day party, but I'll post later
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#7 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 06:31 PM
 
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I concur with Chava that Aminah's post is innacurate in so many ways. Irrelevant as well. It really sucks that she doesn't recognize a COUNTRY, and silly. I won't even go further on that line of discussion. Suffice it to say I have never seen a zionist mama here at MDC state that a muslim country did not have the right to exist.
Oh and ISRAELI ARABS are MUSLIMS too (as well as christians), and they are Israeli.

I posted about the "jews against zionism" group in an activism thread, where it was brought up.

Stafl, I am really not clear what you are saying.

Israel is the name of the country and the land, previous to that (in TaNaCh) it was refered to as "eretz Canaan". The ppl of the land called Cananites.
One of the nations that dwelled in part of the land were called "pleeshteem" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine


If you really want to get into the whole political thing there are many resources, none completely unbiased. To form a most clear opion it is worthwhile to read a variety of sources.

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#8 of 25 Old 05-23-2004, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK. I'm not totally ignorant about the subject but when I was reading things got even more confusing to me when it came to this particular issue. I can see that this is too hot to really discuss. Thanks though.

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#9 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 01:19 PM
 
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Sorry if I was confusing, BB, I'm confused on the matter myself you see.
I have always thought Israel referred to the people, not the land they live on.
Please explain further! Obviously we need to be educated on this very important issue.
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#10 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 04:19 PM
 
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Stacy, I think people are hoping that this thread will die a quiet death rather than fuel any Israel/Palestine fights like go on in Activism.
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#11 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 04:23 PM
 
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in todays world Israel is a country, in the past it has also been used to describe a group of people (Jews, who were called, the people of Israel), the word's origination does stem from its use in the Torah (the Old Testament)

before the state of Israel was founded, this same land was called Palestine, which, has been stated is of Roman origin, and was later used by the British who had control of the area after the Ottoman Empire.

since that time, there are those who continue to use the term Palestinian to describe themselves. these are, for the most part, Arab individuals.

in the current state of politics, using the word Palestine to describe the area which is made up of the State of Israel and areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority is considered political b/c it effectively unrecongnizes the State of Israel, which, regardless of where you are on the political spectrum, is a legitimate state (which may make mistakes, but that is not the point of this discussion) recognized by the UN.

there are many instances where people have refered to the area as Palestine (the waldorf example, CNN, etc.) and while it may seem minor, it does have a political meaning, b/c that is country that the PA is currently working towards, but is as of yet, not an official country, while Israel is.
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#12 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 04:46 PM
 
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Abby, I would only add to what you wrote that Jew have always refered to the land promised to Abraham and his decendants as "eretz yisrael" or 'the land of Israel" and hence the choice of the name Israel for the modern state. However, there are places that could still be refered to as "eretz yisrael" that are not in the modern state of Israel, like Bethlehem and Hebron.
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#13 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 06:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2six
Abby, I would only add to what you wrote that Jew have always refered to the land promised to Abraham and his decendants as "eretz yisrael" or 'the land of Israel" and hence the choice of the name Israel for the modern state. However, there are places that could still be refered to as "eretz yisrael" that are not in the modern state of Israel, like Bethlehem and Hebron.
And to that I would add that there are places that are part of the modern state of Israel that are not part of eretetz yirael- like Eilat.

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#14 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So I gather there is some disagreement --- LOL! As far as the MM Waldorf article. Someone here said there is a Waldorf in Bethlehem. If that is the Waldorf the article is referring to, would saying there is a Waldorf in Palestine be accurate and thus not a political statement?

I must say that even after talking to some friends from Israel and reading up a little, I still find this confusing. My friends, btw, recognize Palestine but I'm not sure if they think of it as its own country or what. Then I read that Palestine is recognized as a country by 90+ other countries. For those countries/people that don't recognize Palestine -- what are the areas under the PA and the occupied territories? Not an official country but what?

That is what I'm getting at when I ask about the "extremity" of the statement. Could one statement be recognizing Palestine AND Israel and the other not recognize Israel at all? I see this as being a rather large distinction.

Has anyone heard about some Christians not recognizing Israel? I must say that I had never heard of that.

I'm totally cool with links if I've asked some very basic questions. I love that Wikipedia site, btw. I just found it last month and have been using it quite a bit.

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#15 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 07:27 PM
 
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The problem is (and what makes it political) is that you can recognize the Palestinian people and their political aspirations but there is no coutry of "Palestine". To say that that someone lives in "Palestine" as opposed to Palestinian Autonomous areas is a political statement.
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#16 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 07:45 PM
 
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I wanted to respectfully correct Aminah's stated misperception that Muslims do not recognize Israel as a country. Most I know do. They would just like Palestine's right to exist to be recognized, too.

As far as the article goes, I think many people refer to the occupied territories as "Palestine" and when they refer to Israel, they mean Israel with its pre-1967 boundaries. I don't think that's necessarily a political statement.
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#17 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 08:18 PM
 
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I wanted to respectfully correct Aminah's stated misperception that Muslims do not recognize Israel as a country. Most I know do. They would just like Palestine's right to exist to be recognized, too.
Being a Muslim, i do not recognise israel as a country, and I do not know anyone who does. I do not know why a muslim would, maybe they support the oppression of the Palestinian people.

There are Palestinians who remember being kicked out of there homes, they remember where they used to live. They are not allowed to return. Doesn't anyone see the problem here? Just put yourself and your family in there situation.
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#18 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 10:30 PM
 
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Oh, my.
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#19 of 25 Old 05-24-2004, 10:39 PM
 
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ummm, well, Israel exists, and it's a country and I'm a Muslim. I don't believe for a minute that recognizing the fact that it exists and is a country diminishes my support for justice for the Palestinian people. We have to move past that line, that battle is dead, the Arabs lost (probably for reasons that you and I could agree on sis. Aminah) it's time to move forward. Israel is not going anywhere. BTW, maybe this should be moved to Activism?

...but, umm, I'm not supposed to be here anyway. just can't stay away from this place. its like crack or something lol.


ohh, and yes it is true that most Arab countries do not officially recognize Israel, that is different, for a myriad of reasons than individual Arabs (and Muslims for that matter, though I hate to lump us all together 'cause although the Arabs get all the attention, Muslims come from everywhere) recognizing that it is a country and it exists and that we need to move on and get down to finding some justice and some peace.
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#20 of 25 Old 05-25-2004, 03:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aminah
Being a Muslim, i do not recognise israel as a country, and I do not know anyone who does. I do not know why a muslim would, maybe they support the oppression of the Palestinian people.
So the people of Jordan and Turkey, which both recognize the state of Israel, either aren't "real" Muslims (NOT) or are countries full of Muslims that support the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Right.
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#21 of 25 Old 05-25-2004, 11:27 AM
 
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There are also Jews who remember "being kicked out of there homes, they remember where they used to live" in countries such as Iraq. Does this mean I, as a Jew, should not recognize this country (and this is not meant to start a debate over the current state of affairs there right now, but rather as a retorical question)

I dont think anyone in this thread is saying that Israel as a state has not made mistakes that have had a devestating impact on the Palestinian people, and I am not saying that 2 wrongs (2 countries kicking people out) makes either one right, the OP wanted to know what the use of the word Palestine to describe a geographic area which emcompasses the current state of Israel might possibly mean.
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#22 of 25 Old 05-25-2004, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2six
So the people of Jordan and Turkey, which both recognize the state of Israel, either aren't "real" Muslims (NOT) or are countries full of Muslims that support the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Right.
you are putting words in my mouth.
show me were i said they
Quote:
aren't "real" Muslims
.

Abby,
I am concerned about the oppression of people all over the world. Anyone, no matter were they are from, who has suffered due to an oppressive governing force, deserves justice. With out justice there can be no peace.

Were was the justice for the jews when they were being oppressed by the nazi's...were is the justice for the palestinians who are being oppressed today?

religious beliefs aside..just look at the situation.
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#23 of 25 Old 05-25-2004, 05:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aminah
i do not recognise israel as a country, and I do not know anyone who does. I do not know why a muslim would, maybe they support the oppression of the Palestinian people.
Hmm, well I took this to the logical conclusion. Either a) you don't know about Turkey and Jordan OR b) know about them but assume that they support the oppression of the Palestinian people. Don't see that that was putting words in your mouth.

And equating Israelis with Nazis (which you are doing indirectly) is minimizes the horror of the Nazi regime and uses the Holocaust for promote your crass political agenda. The OP specifically asked about the historical perspective of the use of the word Palestine and you have chosen to politicize this.
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#24 of 25 Old 05-26-2004, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aminah

Were was the justice for the jews when they were being oppressed by the nazi's...were is the justice for the palestinians who are being oppressed today?

I wish the jews were "oppressed" by the nazis! Instead of being sent to death camps, gas chambers, ovens and the lucky ones- forced labor camps.
Please, can anyone show me any of these in ISRAEL? I've been all around the country (and its really small) and I've never seen evidence of any of these.
Or was that comparison showing the author's leanings toward holocaust denial, to go along with the stateofisrael existance denial?

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#25 of 25 Old 05-26-2004, 11:49 PM
 
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moderator's note:

I really don't want to close this thread, it has been so enlightening for me!
But, this is not the Activism forum, and certain posts leave me wondering whether you have even read the guidelines here, or if you are blatantly disregarding the reason we have this forum.

Please try to stay on-topic. Any further posting that I feel is political debate rather than an attempt to clear up misunderstandings on the subject will result in this thread being closed and/or removed from this forum.


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