She's making her fiance get circ'ed - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I had a friend in law school who is very serious about her religion (Judaism). She has been dating the same guy since college. He is not circ'ed (he is European).

Well, they are engaged, and she is having him get circumcised b/c she wants him to become Jewish.

She and I haven't talked in a few years (drifted apart when I left law school). Can I try to talk to her about this? Or is it not my problem since he is an adult?

I suspect she does not know about what foreskins really are. Not many women do. She has always been very sexual and I don't think she knows what will happen to their sex life. Also, I can't help but think that he will come to resent her for making him cut off a part of his body. Plus I don't want it to be her making him "prove" his love for her.

What should I do? I am so upset about this I am shaking.

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#2 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 01:17 PM
 
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Hmmm...I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but since you're not really friends with her any longer, and since he's a grown man, I'd leave it be.
How good of friends were the two of you at one time? If the two of you were very close not too many years ago, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. You could see if she'd be willing to learn about what a foreskin is and it's purpose. But then again, if this is a religious thing, I'd doubt she'll be swayed. And if he's converting to the faith, and is serious about it, then I really don't see how you could possibly change their minds...
Maybe someone else will have a different perspective...
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#3 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 01:31 PM
 
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Personally, I would stay out of it. He's an adult...

Of course, any information you send now might influence the circumcision decision if they have children. But probably not, if she's that serious about her religion. I'm not sure what to tell you!

I'm not too familiar with Judaism. Is it necessary for him to become circumcised as an adult, in order to convert?
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#4 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 01:45 PM
 
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#5 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 02:10 PM
 
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No, it is not only not necessary is not even discussed. Your firend's request has nothing to do with Judaism as it is practiced. As a Jew it is very offensive to me that she would use this to try to justify the situation. If she is that religious she would not be dating a non-Jew long enough to consider marraige anyway. There are various ways to convert (although conversion is rare- we don't prostletize) depending on whether you are Orthodox, Conservative, etc. If you have more questions or would like to discuss this with her I'd suggest posting in Spirituality to get the low-down on conversion. It is a VERY long and involved process and should not be undertaken just for the sake of a marriage.


Circing does NOT make you Jewish. Any more than eating small wafers of bread makes you Christian. If I were him, I'd run the other way, but he is an adult.

Just wondering: how do you know this and do you even know the guy?

 

 

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#6 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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She and I were friends for a year. She has been dating this guy since college, maybe about 5-10 years. I knew him and he is very nice and I always thought their relationship had major problems. Example: while playing a board game with them and another couple, she kept saying that he was so stupid and he made them lose and she wanted another partner. She is very controlling and has lots of emotional issues. Also I was wrong; she never wants sex anymore since her dad died; they used to have crazy enthusiastic sex before then. He died in a terrible way and her family is Orthodox and I think that this is her way of dealing with her guilt at doing something against her family's wishes that is magnified by the tragedy. Her mother has always been angry that she is with a non-Jew. I think she is trying to please her dead father as she feels she would be betraying him by marrying a non-Jew. She says that it has to be done to be with her since she is Orthodox, but she doesn't keep kosher or do anything Orthodox herself. Apparently (I don't talk to her anymore but do talk to our mutual friend) she won't listen to anyone about it and even has the fiance convinced to do it. Our mutual friend has tried to dissuader her as she thinks it is sick too, but says she won't listen and gets very mad. All she will say is that her friend's husband did it and he says sex is better after being circ'ed. I did some research myself and have seen men say that both sex is better and sex is worse.

I am going to try to link to this in the religion forum as suggested.

Thanks so much. I am so upset I am shaking and nauseated.

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#7 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 02:54 PM
 
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He is a grown man, He wouldn't do it if he didn't want to. I think it's terribly sad and if I were him, I would pack up and leave, but IMO she is not MAKING him do anything.
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#8 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 03:18 PM
 
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I am not jewish but it seems to me that if he wants to convert, he needs to talk to a rabbi to find out what is necessary of him. If he decides to circ (which is a choice he'd make, he is an adult), would he not have to have a bris? I don't know, but it seems like they need to talk to someone. Or, at least her, sounds like she has a few things she needs to work out that would best be done before marriage.
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#9 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 05:33 PM
 
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I've been in the dating life for many years and the veteran of many relationships and something concerns me about this.

This insistence seems somewhat hollow because I suspect she has been sleeping with him for years including foreskin and it seem irrational that this would suddenly be a problem. I'm wondering if she is really ready to end the relationship and figures that if she requires him to do this, he'll back out and then she can justify ending the relationship with "I just can't marry a man with a foreskin because it's against my religion." If this is true, even if he has the circumcision done, she'll leave him. That would be a sad thing.

He is an adult and this is what we advocate. That is give each and every man the decision to control the destiny of his body. Beyond that, we can't do much. There is no cure for stupidity.




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#10 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That is an interesting thought, Frank.

When we were friends several years ago, she mentioned about how he would have to be circ'ed to marry her. (They used to have lots of uncirc'ed sex and she would even talk about how it is cool to have a foreskin.) I thought it was strange but was not upset b/c I didn't know anything at all about circ'ing and had never seen an uncirc'ed penis. Now I am disgusted.

I did some internet research and it seems that some men prefer sex after they are circ'ed as adults. Is this true or is it propaganda?

Either way, he has stayed with her for years, through the death of her father and her subsequent problems, including the fact that she cries every time they try to have sex. If he is this devoted, he might be happy with the circ as it has allowed him to have her. Personally, I say, there are other fish in the sea, and find a new wife.

I think her issue with him not being Jewish and circ'ed only started after her dad died. I just worry that he will do it and then resent her, esp. if the marriage doesn't work out.

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#11 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 06:33 PM
 
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This insistence seems somewhat hollow because I suspect she has been sleeping with him for years including foreskin and it seem irrational that this would suddenly be a problem. I'm wondering if she is really ready to end the relationship and figures that if she requires him to do this, he'll back out and then she can justify ending the relationship with "I just can't marry a man with a foreskin because it's against my religion." If this is true, even if he has the circumcision done, she'll leave him. That would be a sad thing.
I had actually been thinking of this. I wonder if it could be true?

BIL (sis's DH) actually was in a very serious relationship in college. The woman was adament she wanted no children and wanted a husband who felt the same. They were going to get married so he got the big snip and... she ended up marrying someone else and having two children. BIL & Sis, meanwhile, are childless.

If he *wants* to, he can. I hope he gets all he is hoping to out of his marraige, though.

 

 

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#12 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 08:13 PM
 
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See, I agree with tired. Two people should not get married if one of them is going to have to change something about themselves. At least, that's imo.
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#13 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 11:10 PM
 
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Well, if the genders were reversed, and he was trying to get her to have her clitoral hood and inner labia amputated, and about an inch-long's width of the her vaginal skin stripped out, circumferentially, from the front inward, and the edges of that wound clamped against each other to permanently seal them together, what would you do?

I'd like to hear replies to that from anyone of the 'not my business' opinion, BTW.

I've tried to go to my happy place today, but it was closed for psychological health code violations. So instead I am in my angry place.

I will not castigate people from having a different opinion from mine, however. That is not my intent or goal. I use my anger, it doesn't use me. I just want to make sure that people really, truly, actually realize what is at stake here.
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#14 of 36 Old 09-16-2004, 11:18 PM
 
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Acksiom, I understand that. The problem is, if he's a grown man and this does not bother him, along with all the education and so on, what can be done? Personally, I think he should run the other way, and that she's out of line. But, this is not a child without a choice, this is a grown man willing. *I* understand what is at stake, but what is the solution to the problem (besides getting angry)? Any advice?
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#15 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 01:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chow46
Acksiom, I understand that. The problem is, if he's a grown man and this does not bother him, along with all the education and so on, what can be done?
All what education? So far, I haven't seen any indications that he knows what even the potential consequences are, let alone the inevitable ones.

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Personally, I think he should run the other way, and that she's out of line. But, this is not a child without a choice, this is a grown man willing.
If he's misinformed, a grown man willing is still being victimized, just as misinformed parents and their children are, and he's just as fundamentally deserving of preventative efforts to intervene as they are.

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*I* understand what is at stake, but what is the solution to the problem (besides getting angry)? Any advice?
Since from reports she appears completely unwilling to listen to advice, he is the one I would approach instead.

And Lilli87 is very wise and perceptive to be aware of the potential for resentment involved here. Marriage ultimatums like this are extremely bad ideas, carrying a severe risk of poisoning the partnership from the start. I would point this out to him in no uncertain terms. Because if he thinks the behavior's going to stop there, he's deluding himself badly and setting himself up for serious problems later on. He absolutely, positively cannot rely upon it being 'just this one thing, and never again'. That's an issue completely unrelated to the routine and ritual genital amputation question, and one about which she is very correct to be concerned.

I would also inform him as completely as possible of the inevitable ruination of his sexual functioning. Somebody elsewhere just recently reminded me of an intact doctor's report of his personal attempt at evaluating the consequences of routine and ritual male genital ampuation through the specifically targeted medical numbing of his foreskin. I'd tell this guy he should try that first before undergoing a permanent sexually amputative surgery with a shockingly high rate of not only complications, but serious dissatisfaction with the results as well, by those who had been eager to have it done.


Oh, and BTW -- no, men who report 'improved' sexuality following their prepucectomies as adults are not a reliable guide. Even the reports of those who are not clearly fetishist propagandists should be viewed dubiously, because of

(A) the empirical, objective facts of the inevitable harms involved, and

(B) the near-universal agreement among men who have nonsurgically restored their foreskins as to the significant increases to their sexual functioning -- a group which

(B1) includes some men genitally amputated as adults, and who later restored, and report dramatic increases, but

(B2) has virtually no men whatsoever who have restored and report no changes, let alone detrimental ones.

If a woman said that having her clitoral hood and inner labia amputated, and about an inch-long's width of her vaginal skin stripped out, circumferentially, from the front inward, and the edges of that wound clamped against each other to permanently seal them together, had had a positive effect on her sexual functioning, would you take her report at face value and consider it even remotely potentially accurate and objective?

I'd like to think not. I for one would believe that she had some serious body dismorphia psychological issues, and that the people in the medical industry who had performed the procedures had severely abused her, professionally speaking.

As a rule, men who have their foreskins amputated as adults because they want to have it done usually report that it was all for the best sexually and improved their functioning in that regard, while men who have their foreskins amputated as adults because they need (or have been convinced so) to have it done, as a medically 'curative' measure, usually report that it was not for the best sexually, and severely harmed their functioning in that regard.

When all that is combined with the almost universal characteristics of reports from men who have nonsurgically restored their foreskins, it becomes pretty obvious that anecdotal claims of sexual improvement following adult prepucectomy are only indicative of the personal psychological issues of such claimants, and are subjective, non-empirical, and most of thoroughly unreliable observations, and thus should be excluded from any decision-making.
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#16 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 01:51 AM
 
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Yes, I agree. It is obvious that she is not going to listen to reason and concerns. It is then apparent that the issue needs to be taken to him. Not only does he need to be educated on what the procedure is and what complications could happen, but the probable resentment he'll feel later. I agree with the post (I believe it was Frank) that suggested she is asking him to do this so that he will end the relationship.

OP, do you think there would be a way to get in contact with the man and express concerns relating to not only the circ but the more likely underlying reasons behind it?
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#17 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 02:27 AM
 
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What a strange circumstance.

If what I have read before is correct, circumcision would mean nothing within the context of marrying into the Jewish faith and converting. Probably the sprituality forum would have more information on this.

If you talk to this man, suggest that he get in touch with a men's group devoted to the issues of circumcision/ restoration etc....

I bet he would learn a lot there.

PS A friend of mine got a nose job for a man she married and the marriage didn't work out and she never liked her new nose ..... and that was purely cosmetic surgery never mind that the foreskin actually has many functions!
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#18 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 03:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilli78
I did some internet research and it seems that some men prefer sex after they are circ'ed as adults. Is this true or is it propaganda?
It all depends. If you suspect it is propaganda, it probably is. The general tenor of the site or the purpose of the site is a sure tip off in most cases. However, it also depends how old the circumcision is. Freshly circumcised men typically report intense sensitivity for about the first year. For the second year, they usually report they have lost that hyper-sensitivity and the sexual experience is the same and by about the third year when significant keritinization has started setting in, they are usually thinking "How could I be so stupid?" Of course, you also have to realize that these men have a strong desire to justify what they did and deny any unforseen consequences. This can result in false information. Medical research shows significant reduction in sexual function. Of the 5 men I know IRL who have been circumcised as adults, 4 of them are very dissatisfied with the end result. A 20% success rate is not very good. the medical research I have seen shows about a 37% success rate. Still, pretty bad.





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#19 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 05:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilli78
..
I did some internet research and it seems that some men prefer sex after they are circ'ed as adults. Is this true or is it propaganda?
....

Keep in mind that some men prefer sex with pierced penises, and some with subincised penises. Some women like breasts the size of watermelons. There are websites for people that enjoy amputating their own fingers and toes and like the results. That DOES NOT MEAN that the majority will have that experience. In fact I'd say the majority would HATE it. The very fact that these people got the surgery in the 1st place indicates they already think it positive. How many people try out bodily amputations without already thinking it's a good idea?
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#20 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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By last night I had resigned myself to the situation by reasoning that since he wants to do it too, that he would be happy with the outcome no matter what, since he had no choice (i.e., he would not let himself be unhappy once the milk was spilt).

But now I am upset again. I have thought about contacting him. We were friends when I was at law school - there were three couples and we 3 girls were the glue, so the 6 of us did everything together. Her fiance and the other boy were uncirc'ed Europeans and my ex-bf was circ'ed. I always loved to hear the other 2 girls talk about their bf's uncirc'ed penises and was so jealous. I left law school and haven't talked to her or him in 2 years. She and I parted on slightly bad terms (we fought while studying for exams together). Though I liked her a lot, I always thought their relationship was screwed up, as I said above.

I am afraid to contact him now b/c our mutual friend says he will tell her everything anyway, and then she would probably come after me. It doesn't really matter, as we are not in contact at all, but I don't want her to feel as though I am betraying her, b/c I really am not.

I am truly concerned about what effect this will have on their relationship. I keep thinking of women who did not want to circ their sons but did it sort of passive-agressively b/c their DHs would not let it go. Once they learned what really happened they became very angry at their DHs. I.e., any points or position they gained by "self-sacrificingly" giving in to their DHs were not worth their child's genital integrity, and they ended up hating their husbands. Does that make sense?

So I think, any sense of martyrdom or sacrificing himself for true love that he may feel, or any sense of control she may feel as a result of him getting circ'ed, will eventually reveal itself to be a passing vanity and they will be left with a sad result that they cannot even acknowledge, and that eventually destroys their marriage.

I want to say this to them, but our mutual friend says she will cloak herself in, "I wish it didn't have to be this way, but my religion and family demand it." And how do I argue with that without implying that her religious requirement, and, by extension, her inferring that her religion is crap?

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#21 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 01:42 PM
 
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From: www.convert.org

"5. CIRCUMCISION

The specific requirements for conversion and their order need to be discussed with a rabbi. One requirement for males who wish to be converted by an Orthodox or Conservative rabbi is circumcision, or brit milah. If a circumcision has already been performed, the Orthodox and Conservative movements require that a drop of blood be drawn as a symbolic circumcision. This ceremony is called Hatafat Dam Brit. The Reform and Reconstructionist movements generally do not require a circumcision as part of the conversion process."

I would hope that if a man is going to undergo a circumcision as part of a conversion, that he is doing it out of a strong and sincere religious belief, not just to make his finance happy.

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#22 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 01:48 PM
 
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Is he really considering converting? Orthodox Rabbis take conversion quite seriously and some will not accept conversion for marriage purposes.

I seriously doubt that this woman is Orthodox, if she was she wouldn't be dating and sleeping with a gentile for over 5 years.

I think he should run for his life while he can.
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#23 of 36 Old 09-17-2004, 02:00 PM
 
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As a Jew I am offended by this woman's insistence on her future partner to become circ'ed. As one poster already stated, if she was TRULY Orthodox, she wouldn't have dated him in the first place.

I am not religious, but I would never make a man undergo this procedure just to get married. I would have too much respect for him as a person and my partner to request this. I feel the status of his penis is his business.
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#24 of 36 Old 09-19-2004, 12:21 PM
 
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ITA with Ard.
The woman has issues.
This has nothing to do with judaism.

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#25 of 36 Old 09-19-2004, 05:16 PM
 
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Speaking of resentment I read a testimony from a woman who made her fiance get circed before their marriage.Sex was wonderful for the both of them before the circumcision.After the circumcision the man suffered premature ejaculations everytime they had sex afterwards and nothing they tried seemed to work leaving him totally frustrated and her high and dry.He eventually told her he would never forgive her and they broke up.She lost the man she loved.She did eventually marry another guy who is intact but she carrys the guilt of ruining the life of her ex.
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#26 of 36 Old 09-19-2004, 07:07 PM
 
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I think I have read that same one. It was a very sad story.

I have a story that is IRL and a little more personal. My uncle had himself circumcised at the urgings of his GF at the age of 40. at first, everything seemed OK but after 2 years his exact words: "I can hump all night and never get my nut. It's the worst thing I've ever done." He was impotent by age 45 and the GF was outta there, leaving him to deal with it himself. He never had another GF and seemed to lose all interest in women and himself. This man was one who was known for his grooming and wardrobe and nice cars. When he died, he looked like a homeless person even though he had a large investment portfolio and could have dressed and lived well. Very sad!




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#27 of 36 Old 09-19-2004, 09:00 PM
 
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I want to say this to them, but our mutual friend says she will cloak herself in, "I wish it didn't have to be this way, but my religion and family demand it." And how do I argue with that without implying that her religious requirement, and, by extension, her inferring that her religion is crap?
Well, you could start by asking when he is converting? If he rabbi will be involved w/his circ? Etc... Are they having a jewish wedding? I just have to assume it has occured to him that he needs to be going through this with religous guidance and I think he will get a different story than he currently is once he seeks out a rabbi.

 

 

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#28 of 36 Old 09-20-2004, 01:57 PM
 
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If he's willing to do it, he deserves what he gets! I would never do that to my body for anyone else. Still, I thought the Jewish ceremony to circ grown converts only involved cutting the foreskin to make it bleed, but not cutting it off, not a full circ. If she's really making him do a full circ, she's wierd.

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#29 of 36 Old 09-20-2004, 03:46 PM
 
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Still, I thought the Jewish ceremony to circ grown converts only involved cutting the foreskin to make it bleed
Not quite.
A bris milah for a circumcised male is a "drop of blood". Drop of blood does not work if there is no prior circ.

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#30 of 36 Old 09-20-2004, 11:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Benji'sMom
If he's willing to do it, he deserves what he gets!
Even if he doesn't really have the slightest idea what's involved or what the inherent consequences will be?
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