How could a Christian vote Democrat? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, did I get your attention?

I have been asked this a number of times recently and am curious to see how others would respond.

I am not sure how I am voting in November (probably third party).

For the record, I am a Christian who has BIG issues with the current administration and Republicans in general. One issue in particular is how the Republicans have taken some moral issues and abused, manipulated and distorted them for political leverage and gain. UGH!

I think the comment that 'Jesus would vote Democrat' is a little presumptuous (sp?) and debatable, so what other reasons would you give to that question?

TIA for any comments, suggestions and ideas.
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#2 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 04:11 PM
 
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I'm a Christian, and I have no conflicts whatsoever with voting Democrat. I feel that as a Christian I'm commanded to help care for the poor and the needy, and to promote peace over war. I think the Democratic platform addresses these issues far better than the Republicans do.

I'm totally pro-choice btw.
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#3 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 04:49 PM
 
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I'm a Christian and a democrat. It's interesting that you've heard that 'Jesus would vote Democrat' - all I hear about these days is the religious right. LOL

However, I believe that we have a biblical mandate to take care of those around us and our world. And the republicans seem to have a terrible track record on those issues. The republicans do not seem 'conservative' to me in any sense of the word. They are more interested in economic expansion than conserving our natural resources.

I also believe that the dems do a better job of taking care of the poor and children, in terms of funding social programs and schools. On both a state and federal level.

In addition, I have a huge problem with the death penalty, which most republicans support. Last year, our republican govenor and legislature started to process to reintroduce the death penalty in our state. Absolutely barbaric. Which part of "thou shalt not kill" do they not understand????

And then there's the whole 'preemptive war' thing. I don't even want to start writing about that, because I'll never stop. Suffice it to say that I believe that peace should be promoted. Blessed are the peacemakers...

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#4 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 04:58 PM
 
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I am Christian with a strong faith. I pray daily. I read the bible (not that those things are necessarily indicative of a "real" Christians. I'm sure many of us know people who claim those things and are *not*).

That said, I am a real right winger. But i am also pro-choice, and have voted Democrat (Clinton ), and Republican.

I know many Christians who let their faith influence their decision, and that is fine, its just that for me, i don't.
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#5 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Do you think that "Thou shall not kill" should apply to war?? abortion??
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#6 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Another thing...

should we depend on the government to set the moral tone of the country? Such as making decisions, laws, etc. that enforce issues of morality? Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the religious community and not the government's job to dictate our conscience. I understand our government's role of protecting the people's right, but...

Am I way out there on this????
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#7 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 05:15 PM
 
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This is where it gets tough.....

I can only make a choice about Thou shall not kill and abortion for me. And i can pretty much say i wouldn't have one and haven't had one. Of course, i could get pregnant tomorrow, and my life becomes at risk, and then i would have to make that choice. But at least i would have that choice. That i choose not to have an abortion is just that *my* decision.

Many Christians might shake their head at that and doubt that i really believe. But Christ knows my heart. and thats all that matters, not what someone here thinks.

Now the death penalty i am pretty much for, which smacks that commandment down, doesn't it? I don't know what to say. I have a hard time dealing with child predators that murder kids, I think they should die. If it were my child, i would want to do it with my bare hands.

But if we are talking politics.....i voted for Bush last time, and it wasn't because he was for the death penalty. I hated Gore (and he is pro-choice).

I'm rambling...i hope i made my point.

I am sure i look like a hypocrite. But i am being honest.
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#8 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 05:27 PM
 
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I am a Christian and I vote Democrat.
I do not think GWB upholds my Christian beliefs in any way, and many of them have been listed here already.
I don't think Bush is a strong Christian leader. I would never question anyone's faith. What I mean is that he doesn't support or endorse policies that uphold Christian values. (just my opinion, obviously there are Christians who would disagree with me.
OTOH I don't think many politicians do, and I don't look to politicians to do this. The fact that Bush uses biblical language and imagery, and professes to be a Christian while upholding his not so Christian valued policies makes him look like a hypocrite in my mind. I'd have more respect for him (but still wouldn't vote for him) if he took out the Christian language and just said, "I'm here to screw us all, without the blessing of any Christian church. It's all me, baby!"
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#9 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 05:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parthenia
"I'm here to screw us all, without the blessing of any Christian church. It's all me, baby!"

: : : : : : : :


That's just too funny.


Anyway, I don't think it's fair to assume that any religous group should vote on way or another. Basicly, you should vote for who and what you believe in and who you believe will do right by our country. I think in doing so you will have choosen well regardless.


What I seriously don't understand is Christains being pro choice. But that's another thread... and I don't think we're allowed to get into that.
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#10 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 08:46 PM
 
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I'm a Christian and registered democrat though I plan on voting republican. : Personally, I'm not thrilled with the platform of either Bush or Kerry completely; I think in our "democratic society" though, you have to pick your battles and stick with those. I feel very strongly about abortion and tend to side with republicans there. I also feel very strongly about supporting public eduction and public health care (though we are homeschooling our own children) and agree with dem's on that issue (anti-voucher, etc). What always bugs me is that my dh and I don't really fit in either court: People say, Oh you're a Christian so you must be Republican's ... Oh, you're public school teachers (me, retired), so you must be Democrats. : But, I think you need to look at the issues that are most important to you, take them to God, and pray for His guidance in your decision.

And two interesting pieces of Scripture:
Romans 13:1 - 1Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.
Romans 13:6-7 - 6Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid so they can keep on doing the work God intended them to do. 7Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and import duties, and give respect and honor to all to whom it is due.

~Faithfully His,
Brit

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#11 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 09:27 PM
 
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'Jesus would vote Democrat'
Jesus is the one who said to "be no part of this world" and that he looked to his Father's kingdom for real solutions (and not man) so he probably wouldnt have voted at all.

Desiree

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#12 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 09:36 PM
 
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I don't think Jesus would've voted pro-choice..And that is the party platform of democrats..

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#13 of 63 Old 09-27-2004, 09:53 PM
 
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Sorry, but Jesus NEVER would have voted pro-choice
Could you provide a link to the interview?
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#14 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 01:43 AM
 
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This is intresting we were discussing this the other day. I have a few questions.
If you are quoting the thou shalt not kill, what about the rest of the old testament where God told people to kill everybody man women and child ? He is still the same God now as he was then? How do you no know if He wanted Sadam taken out and GWB was just following directions? Several of the OT books are full of wars that were very very bloody. And God ordered them.

Isn't it the church who is suppose to take care of widows, orphans and the poor. If people in the church were doing what they were "suppose to do" then why do we need the Goverment to.

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#15 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 01:55 AM
 
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This one is getting off track! I hope it doesn't get closed.

As someone who still doesn't know how I will vote in NOvember, I will tell you how I will chose. Some issues are more important to me. THere will never be a canidate who backs up completely what I believe, so I just have to vote according to what I think is the most impending issue at the time. Right now, I am thinking about just not voting : I don't care for Bush or Kerry, and have problems w/ things tha both of them are advocating in the commercials.

If I had my choice, the ideal canidate would be pro-choice, want to downsize the gov. offices, and make them more economical (too much waste, not enough checking, ect.), want to balance using non-renewable resources (fuel) w/ new types of energy, and renewable resources (wind, sun, ect.) so that we are not dependant on any foreign oil, and most importantly, this canidate would not be swayed by ANY SIGs!!!! He or she would do what was in the best interest for the country as a whole, not what some group who is padding his pockets wants him to do.

Of course, this would be impossible, so I just have to go with the canidate who is closest to the direction I think we need to go.
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#16 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 03:08 AM
 
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The topic of caring for widows and orphans keeps coming up in this thread. Is this in reference to the need for a welfare program and/or other state/goverment funded programs to help those in need? From a Biblical point of view (of course, my interpretation of it ), this is an interesting subject. I was reading in a mag the other day about how socialism and Christianity do not go hand-in-hand. This really got me thinking because I have always found myself to lean towards a socialist point of view - education for all, health care for all, retirement/senior care for all, etc. But, I also knew that I couldn't just go with what "sounded right" to me - as a (fundamental Christian, I also needed to read what God had to say about it. So far, this is what has come to mind:

In Matthew 25:34-50, Christ separates the sheep from the goats, and His reasoning for doing so was that when He was hungry they fed Him, when He was naked, they dressed Him, when He was in jail, they visited Him, etc. They said, but Lord, when did we ever do these things for You? He answered by saying that when they did it to the least of the bretheren, they did them for Him. My belief is that this illustrates God's desire for us to care for those around us - feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit and encourage the downtrodden, etc.

But, I also believe that there are verses that express that we are to do something with our lives and not just assume that we will be taken care of ...

1 Thes. 4:11-12 admonishes us to lead a quiet life and work with our hands, that we may earn the respect of those around us and not be in need.

In Matthew 25:14-30, the parable of the talents is told. In this parable, a man gives a talent to three different men and tells them that when he returns from his journey, he will check on what they have done with it. Two of them used their talents to earn more; the third man hid his talent and returned to the man with nothing more than what he was given. The two men who worked in some capacity were commended for doing something with what they were given; the man who sat on his talent and didn't do anything was dismissed with these words: “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’"

My perspective is that yes, we are called as Christians (and in my opinion, human beings regardless of religion) to care for those less fortunate. But, I also believe that as Christians, we are called to make something out of our life (the talent that we have been given) - something that is of benefit to the Man that gave us that talent in the first place. What does this have to do with politics? Well, to make a long explanation a little longer, I think that the socialist mind-frame of supporting everyone doesn't line-up as neatly with the Bible as I would like it to. I think it means that there needs to be moderation with the liberal-hand-out-money-for-the-sake-of handing-it-out practice that seems more indicative of the democratic party. I am a SAHM; my dh works two jobs to enable me to stay home with our children. Though I believe that public school teachers should make enough money to support their faimilies on ONE income, I also don't expect someone in government to give us more money just because I choose to stay home. I believe there needs to be a big over-haul of the welfare and unemployment systems. And so, I don't see it as a simple black-and-white situation of "Christians are called to support orphans, widows and those less fortunate, so therefore we must support Democrats because they are for social programs." I think there is much more to it than that.

Phew ...

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#17 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 03:41 AM
 
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Just thought I'd throw out a site/magazine that I've found interesting: www.sojo.net

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#18 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 11:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by EFmom
Could you provide a link to the interview?
LMAO.


That said, I'm pro-choice and Christian. And Democrat. I think that many Republican powers-that-be are blatently, cynically anti-woman and anti-poor, and I think that too often pro-life platforms are derived from that perspective and then whitewashed with religious concerns.

I think that to ask how Jesus would have voted is a pretty meaningless question, though - it just doesn't work through space and time.

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#19 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 11:51 AM
 
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#20 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 02:57 PM
 
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I'm sorry about the way I worded that..I did not mean to imply that I know everything and I was *NOT* questioning others faith..I just find it hard to comprehend that people say Jesus would vote democrat..I don't think he would have..

I just don't understand how someone could say Jesus would've been pro-choice..Jesus loved children and ministered to them and taught others to do the same..The Bible is very clear in Psalm 139 and other passages that God knits together a child in it's mother's womb and God opens and closes the womb..If God creates life in the womb, should bee snuff it out..I just don't understand that..

I know there are tough cases when women don't have money, etc etc and not everyone had a loving family to support them..That's why I volunteer at a crisis prenancy center trying to help women in facing a crisis pregnancy..

I know I'm in the minority here at MDC because I'm pro-life..But I do not judge and condemn others who feel differently..Up until 6 years ago I would've considered myself pro-choice..Sorry if my post infered that..I didn't mean to sound judgemental..I had about 2 seconds to write and thought I would come back and fix it..Then we lost power

I do believe it is the churches job as well to take care of the sick and hungry, etc..And yes the church has fallen down on the job on that one..They don't even pay their pastors a fair wage, much less take care of their congregations..

Sorry I didn't clarify my statement and for the sucky wording.. :

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#21 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My beliefs on many issues are so much more in line with the dems. such as with social programs, education, the environment, the war, downsizing large corporations that abuse and exploit workers, and so on.

One other big concern is the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor. I had read recently that the group of people that are falling into poverty is those who were once middle-class households, with at least one person working, with at least one person with a education higher than high school. That would be our family!

Both parties seem to be getting a little out of whack with such intense polarization.

I may just decide to look at the abortion issue outside of the government. It seems to be more of an election year issue anyway. Not sure if the republicans would be ready to support all those women and their children if abortion became illegal. Guess we need to focus more on helping women not get to a situation where they feel that abortion is their only option. That isn't fair either.
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#22 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 04:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherity
Guess we need to focus more on helping women not get to a situation where they feel that abortion is their only option.
That's where I believe the focus should be..I'm not for the illegalization of abortion..It will just become more dangerous..We seriously need to rethink our "sex education" programs and really help kids understand the risks of sex at a young age..Sex ed is a joke in most schools..They need to understand what they're giving up and how they're putting themselves at risk by having sex so young..

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#23 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 04:37 PM
 
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The Bible is very clear in Psalm 139 and other passages
Thanks for clarifying. Personally, what the Psalms or other characters in the Bible have to say about anything is not all that important to me. Jesus was silent on this issue. It seems to me that if abortion was a defining issue for Jesus, he wouldn't have been silent. He did discuss poverty and promoting peace, so that gets my attention. ITA that helping women avoid needing to consider an abortion is the ideal.

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#24 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 04:44 PM
 
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You know, I've read (but don't have the stats handy, so can't vouch for the veracity - it's just my memory, LOL), that married women are among the highest demographic who have abortions. It's a good thing to remember that it's not just teens having sex, but across many ages, financial situations, etc. I agree - we need to address the issues behind why people are having abortions...I don't think anybody really wants there to be MORE abortions, KWIM? That's why people are "pro-choice" not "pro-abortion." Personally I am pro-life, and yes, that includes the death penalty, etc. But as far as abortion, we have the highest per capita rate of abortions in the world - why? What can we do to address it? It's not just b/c it's legal (as some people would have you think) b/c there's plenty of other countries where abortion is legal - so we need to search out and address those underlying issues...and I think crisis pregnancy centers are one way, that's great. Changing sex ed? Maybe, but I doubt it - with teaching abstinence only we're expecting people to adhere to a "Christian world view" and unless they happen to be Christian and hold to "our" view of what that world view is, then abstinence is not going to seem very attractive or viable, KWIM?

Anyhoo, that was a bit off topic, but I wanted to say that while I am strongly pro-life, I consider other issues important as well - peace, the environment, social issues, health care, public education etc. etc. And I find myself more in line with the Dems as far as those issues...

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#25 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 05:05 PM
 
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I don't think abstinence IS a Christian view on sex..I think kids need to realize there is no such thing as safe sex. HPV can be contracted even while using condoms. And far too many women get hurt when relationships don't pan out like they thought. ANd they were emotionally involved because they'd had sex. I just wish girls would realize they're worth waiting for, you know?

And I know that sex ed isn't the "Answer"..One answer is helping people realize that abortion isn't always what it's cracked up to be. It's not always the "easy answer" it's proclaimed to be. We need to give them other options. That what I about crisis pregnancy centers. We're all about answers, baby!! Women need to see that they can have careers and babies..A baby isn't the end of your life..

And for what Jesus said..I guess I take Psalms *AS* being what Jesus said since He authorized the writings contained in Scripture..I also think an argument can be made for his gently peace loving nature and the way He treated kids..

Sorry to hijack the thread..

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#26 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stayseeliz
I don't think abstinence IS a Christian view on sex..
I agree with what you're saying regarding the emotional outcomes of sex and the possibly of contracting STDs even though wearing condoms - my point was that yes, abstinence IS a (one of many!) Christian view or ideal and is *IS* presented in schools and championed by certain religious leaders (say Dobson). It is *A* "Christian world view" - one of many. Why do you say you don't think it's a Christian view? I certainly see it that way - not the view of all Christians, but certainly of a vocal component.

There ARE Christians who promote abstinence-only education...my point was expecting everyone to follow one Christian world-view is impossible if it's not their world-view, SWIM? I disagree with your above quote - for many Christians abstinence IS part of their world view and they are actively promoting it. I agree with your point about the emotional outcomes etc., but am confused why you don't think abstience is a Christian view on sex? It's certainly the message I've heard over and over through the years...

FTR, I think abstinence is the best approach...but although it was all I heard growing up I did not remain abstinent. I *do* wish I had and will be honest when sharing with my children.

Ok, back on-topic. BTW, to the OP you gave me quite a jolt at the title of this thread. My blood was boiling for just a minute.

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#27 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 07:28 PM
 
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Let me clarify again..Abstinence *IS* a Christian ideal but certainly not an exclusively Christian worldview..I meant to say that abstinence is recognized as *THE ONLY* way to truly protect yourself from sexual harm (physical or emotional)..I even saw a condom commercial somewhere that stated as much "Abstinence before marriage and a monongamus (sp) relationship after marriage is the only way to protect yourself against unwanted disease etc"

I just meant we could promote abstinence to teens without making it Christian..KWIM? I don't think we give our kids enough credit in this day and age..We treat them like animals.."You shouldn't have sex, but since you can't control yourselves-Here's a condom!"

I just wish they'd tell the truth that there is no such thing as safe sex..They tout condoms as safe and kids get preggo, STD's and heart break left and right..Just makes me sad..

Our culture is so overly sexualized that "sex" is no longer considered a major, life changing event..

That's what I meant!

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#28 of 63 Old 09-28-2004, 11:10 PM
 
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I guess I take Psalms *AS* being what Jesus said since He authorized the writings contained in Scripture
Well, I guess I think this is a good example of how people's Christian faith can lead them to completely different outcomes. I most emphatically do not think that Jesus "authorized" scriptures. I don't believe the Bible is inerrant. I believe very much that God speaks to us through personal revelation.

To the OP, it is very difficult for me to understand how anyone who is Christian could vote Republican. Could you explain where your relatives are coming from? For most fundamentalists that I know, it boils down to abortion and nothing else. Is that what they are referring to?

As an aside, Bush is allegedly a "devout" Methodist. There is little in the rhetoric he spouts that is vaguely in line with the positions of the Methodist church, which I find fascinating.
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#29 of 63 Old 09-29-2004, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by EFmom

To the OP, it is very difficult for me to understand how anyone who is Christian could vote Republican. Could you explain where your relatives are coming from? For most fundamentalists that I know, it boils down to abortion and nothing else. Is that what they are referring to?

As an aside, Bush is allegedly a "devout" Methodist. There is little in the rhetoric he spouts that is vaguely in line with the positions of the Methodist church, which I find fascinating.
Yes, the abortion issue and the gay marriage issue are the two main reasons that they would be voting for Bush. He 'says' he is Christian??? I don't know what to think exactly. Only time will tell on that one.

There are all sorts of unchristian things going on in politics and the world. How much can our government put laws on? Do we really think that would change the moral tone or just pull people further apart. Like many of you, I think that the church as well as the government needs to be sure that people's basic needs such as healthcare, education, right to live a respected life, clear water and air, healthy food, etc should be met before those ruling the land can ride on any moral highground.

I need to go to sleep.
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#30 of 63 Old 09-29-2004, 01:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Stayseeliz
Let me clarify again..Abstinence *IS* a Christian ideal but certainly not an exclusively Christian worldview..
Ahh...thanks for clarifying.

Meghan, mom to 11yo, 8yo, and 3yo 

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