non-Biblical evidence of Jesus' Existence? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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Religious Studies > non-Biblical evidence of Jesus' Existence?
Meiri's Avatar Meiri 03:08 AM 02-08-2005
How many pagan gods did that?
Do you or do you not live on this planet?

And I bow out now, having been unable to resist..., and leave this to those whose scholarship and caring about the issue are much greater than mine.

DaryLLL's Avatar DaryLLL 10:44 AM 02-08-2005
Originally Posted by Unagidon
Is there any more historical evidence that gnosticism existed?
As in leader and followers of belief systems? Gospels, acts and apocalypses? Perhaps you have heard of the Nag Hammadi Library?

You're not serious. If Marcion had not existed, Tertullian would hardly have had a reason to write a 5 volume treatise against him: Adversus Marcionem.

And what kind of gnostic are you? Wasn't it always associated with Christianity? Can it be disassociated from Christianity?
Well, that is really off topic. Feel free to start another thread or ask me in PM though, b/c I would be more than happy to explain.
DaryLLL's Avatar DaryLLL 10:50 AM 02-08-2005
Originally Posted by Unagidon
What is interesting to me, though, is that someone who thinks that Christianity will fall if the Bible is not proved literally factual is coming from the same basic assumptions about the Bible and Christianity as the Fundamentalists. They of course accept the literalness of the Bible as a matter of faith, so historical or scientific arguments are irrelevant to them in any case. But this mirror image of doubt locks its holder into a shared presupposition. While the black and white rejection of something can be, or at least seem, deeply liberating, this kind of liberation is not necessarily transcendent. In effect, the people who you are arguing against are not going to listen and the people who would listen have probably already accepted a great deal of your argument, but remain Christians nonetheless because they don’t accept the basic fundamentalist assumption in the first place.
Oh, I see. I thought you were speaking generally, but I now see you are implying I myself am trying to "make Xtianity fall" by proving it to be non-fact based.

No, Uni, I am just answering the question of the OP. Which is why I was joking above with the "crash." I guess you thought I was serious...
stafl's Avatar stafl 11:16 AM 02-08-2005
I am closing this thread for the time being while I try to figure out what I should do about it. The OP asked for historical proof of Jesus' existence, I don't see that being discussed any longer.
stafl's Avatar stafl 06:59 PM 02-08-2005
reopening this thread. please stick to the topic asked in the OP. thanks! Personally pointed comments should be taken to PM.
DaryLLL's Avatar DaryLLL 11:28 PM 02-08-2005
Meowee-- what is hairdresser a euphemism for? Was that an unclean profession?

Was it really Mary Virgin who was thought to be a hairdresser? I thought it was Mary Magdalene. Magda or something like it meant hairdresser in Hebrew? Altho the more likely idea is it meant Tower, as in tower of faith, as in Apostola apostolorum.
DaryLLL's Avatar DaryLLL 11:40 PM 02-08-2005
Katie, yr link...:

looks good, but it critiques the book pg by pg and I don't have the book. Maybe I will try and get it and look at the various problems with the theory as your author sees it.

He mentions Peter Kirby, who also has a great site:

Good and ON TOPIC *cough* Unagidon*cough*
Meiri's Avatar Meiri 12:23 AM 02-09-2005
I want to apologize if my tongue in cheek comment was misunderstood by anyone. That is smiling after all.

I have read that there were Romans setting up places to care for the poor and ill, but since I don't have even my secondary source to check on, I didn't want to get into that aspect of how Christianity didn't invent charity either.

The bowing out was merely because my level of knowledge on Biblical issues doesn't even begin to approach your all's.

This is a good read, and I love learning what I can. Would that I remembered more...

Back to the topic!
merpk's Avatar merpk 01:21 PM 02-09-2005
Have not read the entire thread, apologizing in advance, but time is severely limited ... but here goes anyway ...

About a decade or so ago I took a course at the New School in NYC about Jesus in the Jewish texts, and it was given by a professor whose name escapes me from Yeshiva University (ie., Orthodox Jewish credentials) that Jesus is quoted in the Talmud once or twice. Not remembering the second reference, but remembering the first: It's a discussion of two people lost in the desert with only enough water for one to survive. Do they share the water and both die or does one finish the water and survive. Not remembering at all what position Jesus is said to have taken, but his position is *not* the one accepted as final law.

So assuming this discussion is about the actual historical existence of the man Jesus as a rabbi in the first century CE, well, there's a bit of Jewish evidence for it. Though as the professor pointed out, not all Jewish historians agree that the rabbi quoted in the above-referenced discussion is actually the Jesus of, well, 'christ' fame.
DaryLLL's Avatar DaryLLL 10:33 PM 02-09-2005
Originally Posted by Katiemare
Jesus was a real and remarkable man. The most important part of his life was neither his birth nor his death. ...It's what Jesus said and did as he lived that is most important, and which does not get enough attention. The Sermon on the Mount. Ministering to Women, "sinners", lepers and other socially disadvantaged people. How many pagan gods did that?
OK, since Meiri remarekd on this, I did a little research.

We know YHWH "commanded" his people to care for widows and orphans. Must we assume the rest of the Mediterranean region did not care for their disadvantaged neighbors? Did they not understand hospitality? Were they cruel and heartless and selfish? And only the Jews and later, Xtians, kind and charitable?

I found an old 1911 Encyclopedeia page that talks about ancient "hospitality" laws and issues of poor folk, beggars etc, in Greece. The author of the article quotes Hesiod, who was also popular with the Romans.

In Hesiod the fundamental conceptions of charity are more clearly expressed. He has... commandments, for disobedience to which Zeus will punish the offender. They are: Thou shalt do no evil to suppliant or guest; thou shalt not dishonour any woman of the family; thou shalt not sin against the orphan; thou shalt not be unkind to aged parents.

The laws of social life are thus duty to ones guest and duty to ones family... Also the family charities due to the orphan, whose lot is deplored in the Il-fad (xxii. 490), and to the aged are now clearly enunciated. But there is also in Hesiod the duty to ones neighbor, ...according to a law of honorable reciprocity in act and intent. Love him who loves thee, and cleave to him who cleaveth to thee: to him who would have given, give; to him who would not have given, give not. The groundwork of Hesiod's charity outside the family is neighborly help (such as formed no small part of old Scottish charity in the country districts); and he put his argument thus: Competition, which is a kind of strife, lies in the roots of the world and in men. It is good, and rouses the idle handless man to work.... the relief, when the family can do no more, must come from neighbors, to whose house the beggar has to go with his wife and children to ask for victual. Once they may be helped, or twice, and then they will be refused. It is better, Hesiod tells his brother, to work and so pay off his debts and avoid hunger (see Erga, 391, &c., and elsewhere). Here indeed is a problem of to-day as it appeared to an early Greek. The alternatives before the idler so far as his own community is concerned, are labor with neighborly help to a limited extent, or hunger.

Love one another as I have loved you. Was that not original?
No, that comes from the Hebrew Bible. As does pretty much everything Jesus says.
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