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Old 02-12-2005, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lavendermama
I have one!!
What about Matthew 27:52? This one has always seemed, well, a little strange to me.

52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,


This one? It refers to events that occurred after Jesus' resurrection. His resurrection and victory over death was so powerful that it even raised the bodies of righteous men and women ("saints") from the dead. I believe that this refers to a raising such as Lazarus', that is, eventually they would die ("fall asleep") a natural death again, not that they were being given "resurrected" or glorified bodies--that must wait until the end of times for most of us.

LeeAnn

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Old 02-12-2005, 05:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lavendermama
Did you read the attatched article, LeeAnn?
Melissa, just had a chance to read it (now that I've finished running back and forth to the kitchen to flip pancakes!). I don't personally know any Christians like the ones described in the article, although certainly I've read on the internet about people who profess to live like this.

I'd say those that advocate extreme isolationist living are a very tiny minority of Christians. However, it does highlight that there will always be this kind of tension for Christians: how do we live in the world but not be consumed by it? How can we be both salt and light?
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Old 02-12-2005, 06:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pammysue
So the "the husband of but one wife" portion of that scripture interests me. I seems to me that it must mean that the elder must not be a polygimist, not that he must be married. Especially, since what we know of Paul is that he was not married, and neither was Jesus. Thoughts? Comments?
Yes, I would agree with you. My church (Catholic) interprets this to mean that a married man may be ordained (as a deacon only in most cases in the Latin-rite church), but if his spouse dies, he may not marry again ("one wife").

I have always wondered why some churches seem to insist upon married pastors when the example of the disciples was obviously celibacy. I can't think of the last time I saw a (protestant) minister or pastor that was single (never married, not divorced).

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Old 02-12-2005, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Hidden Life

52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,


This one? It refers to events that occurred after Jesus' resurrection. His resurrection and victory over death was so powerful that it even raised the bodies of righteous men and women ("saints") from the dead. I believe that this refers to a raising such as Lazarus', that is, eventually they would die ("fall asleep") a natural death again, not that they were being given "resurrected" or glorified bodies--that must wait until the end of times for most of us.

LeeAnn
verse 53 supports this: They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

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Old 02-12-2005, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I think that the church portrayed in the New Testament is a church that is being born, growing, and changing. It wasn't a fixed or stagnant institution. In the New Testament, they trusted themselves to the Holy Spirit, not, as churches seem to now, to laws and regulations about how we think it "must" be. Paul himself portrays the church as a living organism in I Corinthians 12, and again in Ephesians 4:16. Paul calls the church to serve Christ " in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6) and again in 2 Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit". There was a flexibility in the early church- anyone who had a gift was called to use it for the good of the church.
So do you think this trust in the Holy Spirit, the flexibility of anyone using their gifts is the Biblical way to run a church? Or does our culture and society today demand that churches be more structured? Is this kind of church not possible or appropriate today?

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Old 02-12-2005, 06:28 PM
 
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I don't know. I think the answer, as with anything, is balance. Structure is good. Too much structure becomes legalistic. It's too easy to get caught up in legalities (we must do it this was because it says in *** that this is the way to do it) and not leave room for the Spirit to work. Who am I to put limits on God?

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Old 02-12-2005, 09:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Hidden Life
.

I have always wondered why some churches seem to insist upon married pastors when the example of the disciples was obviously celibacy.
Well, Peter had a mother in law, whom Jesus healed. We don't really know about the other apostles except Paul.

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I can't think of the last time I saw a (protestant) minister or pastor that was single (never married, not divorced).

LeeAnn
I personally know of one, in my aunt's Lutheran church. He is rather effeminate and is understood to be gay.

There are a couple of Episcopal bishops who are not married to women but in long term relationships with male partners. This was in the news a yr or so ago.
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Old 02-12-2005, 09:07 PM
 
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The senior pastor in the church where my dh serves is single, and has had an extremely effective ministry.
Annette

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Old 02-13-2005, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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DB, I can't even begin to touch on how offensive I found that article to be to me personally. First, it attacked people for relying on scripture for how they live their lives and second it didn't even use scripture as a basis for an example of what we should be doing. THis article attacked the type of several families I know. How easy for people to judge them without knowing them personally. The families I know are the least judgemental, loving, helping, christians I ever come in contact with. The families with adult children, the children are responsible, bright, trustworthy. Some are in college, some are writing books, some have homebased business, and the most revealing thing is the children display a faith in the Lord. Enough of my rant.

I think it is important to remember even when one is relying on the holy spirit for guidance, that what ever guidance a person feels they are getting it will not contradict the Bible.

Would anyone care to read James 4:1-12 and discuss how we could/should apply this. : Annettemarie, I hope you'll help us.
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Old 02-13-2005, 12:52 AM
 
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Jam 4:1 What causes wars, and what causes fightings among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members?
Jam 4:2 You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask.
Jam 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.
Jam 4:4 Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
Jam 4:5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us"?
Jam 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind.
Jam 4:9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection.
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
Jam 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jam 4:12 There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?
Jam 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and get gain";
Jam 4:14 whereas you do not know about tomorrow. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.
Jam 4:15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and we shall do this or that."
Jam 4:16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
Jam 4:17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
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Old 02-13-2005, 03:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I think that is the more important question- should churches is 2005 be modeled after the churches of 50 AD?

I think that the church portrayed in the New Testament is a church that is being born, growing, and changing. It wasn't a fixed or stagnant institution. In the New Testament, they trusted themselves to the Holy Spirit, not, as churches seem to now, to laws and regulations about how we think it "must" be. ...
Yes, but also remember that the Jewish believers brought their traditions with them, so there was definitely some idea of what constituted right worship and hierarchy in the early church. The faith was given to the Jewish people first who were then given the spiritual gifts to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. So of course our heritage is going to be reflective of that. Christianity didn't just spring up from nothing, is what I'm saying, it is a living organism and it didn't appear suddenly in AD 33. Rather, it is the climax of history, a momentous event in a very long story that begins with Adam and Eve and continues with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Moses and all the rest.

As for whether or not the church today should be reflective of how churches were structured in the early days, that is a little too hard for me to step outside of and look at objectively, I think! After all, Catholics and Orthodox hold that yes, our churches are the same church that was founded by the apostles. Sounds like an awesome new thread idea though.

LeeAnn

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Old 02-13-2005, 04:44 PM
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SQ I believe you have, ahem, adapted Scripture to fit into your mindset instead of using Scripture as a guideline for life.

Spanking, for example, you have seemingly ignored the Hebrew words or simply ignored what people here are trying to say.

That article was well researched and well documented.

I know, firsthand, people who have become dangerously isolated I'm not saying everyone who is isolated is dangerous but it sends up yellow flags of warning.

Sort of down the slippery slope into a Stephen King novel.

If that has touched a nerve, SQ, perhaps you should ponder the purpose of having nerves in the first place.

DB
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Old 02-13-2005, 04:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Hidden Life
As for whether or not the church today should be reflective of how churches were structured in the early days, that is a little too hard for me to step outside of and look at objectively, I think! After all, Catholics and Orthodox hold that yes, our churches are the same church that was founded by the apostles. Sounds like an awesome new thread idea though.

LeeAnn

I think I know what you are saying, but even the Catholic church has evolved somewhat with the times. After all fifty years ago, girls weren't altar servers and the laity didn't distribute Holy Communion.

As I said before, it is balance. Holding on to the past, but looking forward into the future, and still following the Spirit along the way.

Annette

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Old 02-13-2005, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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That article was well researched and well documented
but not giving scripture as a basis for the article. I think the warning flag should be when an article attacks people for trying to live biblically. Rejecting the worlds standard of living doesn't make one an isolationist. If one is to error in their life it would be better to reject the world's standard than God's. My days here on earth are short. Better to please the lord than man.
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Jam 4:4 Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
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Old 02-13-2005, 07:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Hidden Life
After all, Catholics and Orthodox hold that yes, our churches are the same church that was founded by the apostles.
For purposes of clarification, do you beleive the the C & O churches are founded on the same set of basic Biblical beliefs, or that they are structured in the same way, or both, or neither?

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Old 02-13-2005, 08:08 PM
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I had to edit out my post because I may have committed copyright violations but, suffice to say, SQ, there is a wealth of Scripture references IF YOU BOTHER TO GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND ACTUALLY READ THE ARTICLE I LINKED Yes, I'm shouting because it's like trying to reason with someone who won't even read the article I linked with its wealth of verses and some 50 footnotes.

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Old 02-14-2005, 12:52 AM
 
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This thread will be reopened after I remove any and all posts that either debate hitting children, or that are totally off topic and are not discussing scripture.
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Are christians expected to obey God's law? If so how do we decipher which ones are necessary and which ones we can use our freedom in Christ option?

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Matthew uses Jesus' words in 5:17-20 as a thesis statement for the whole of 5:21-48 which follows. Jesus essentially says, "Look, if you thought the law was tough, wait till you see this. If you really want to be my disciples, give me your hearts without reservation" (see 5:17).
http://www.biblegateway.com/resource...1&seq=i.47.5.7
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Old 02-14-2005, 03:34 AM
 
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That article does have some good points but there are things unmentioned.

I find that many forget: "all sins are equal..." and not to mention "thou shalt not judge..."

Nice thoughts, if only people actually meant them.

Quote:
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:3-5)

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Old 03-01-2005, 02:02 AM
 
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I agree SQ, the article seemed quite biased and more like a vent then anything else.
This looks like a great thread and I have enjoyed reading through it!
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