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#31 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I used a couple of translations. I copied one out of my NIV and got the other two off of Blue Letter Bible and picked NLT. I can get KJV if that is better.

Mothernurture, the fact that you say there are many paths to God is puzzling to me, because that is not what the Bible teaches. It does, however, make it easy to discuss Mormonism with you!

Are any of the Mormon-believing posters willing to discuss Galations 1:8??
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#32 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 06:17 PM
 
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Galatians 1:8, in KJV:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

To me, this scripture simply warns us to beware of false doctrines. It isn't saying that all doctrines taught by an angel are false. Paul was simply warning the Galatians of doctrines that stray from the doctrines which he was teaching. As Latter-day Saints, we believe the Gospel as we understand it is in harmony with Paul's teachings, so I don't really see why this verse would pose a problem. HTH!
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#33 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 06:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavendermama
I was interested to hear your thoughts on this verse:



Why would Paul write this if God intended to send a "new and improved" message of salvation thousands of years later? Wasn't Joseph Smith indeed visited by an angel?
Yes, Joseph was visited by an angel. No one ever said it was "new and improved". Have you read the Book of Mormon? I have read the Book of Mormon, and I know that it does not preach a "new and improved" gospel. I believe that it works hand in hand with the bible. It does not contradict it.

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Originally Posted by lavendermama
So you too believe that Jesus is God (John 1:1)? That salvation is by faith and NOT works?
No, I do not believe that Jesus is God. I believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct personages, yet one in purpose. This belief is very much supported by the scripture contained in the Bible.

Yes, salvation is by faith, yet "faith without works is dead". They go hand in hand. How do we prove our faith but through works? It we believe in Christ then we serve as He did with love and charity. We believe very strongly in the power of the Atonement.


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Originally Posted by lavendermama
What about this verse?
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around with a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth adn turn aside to myths.
2 Timothy 4:3?
What about it? It is only your oppinion that we do not have "sound doctrine".


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Originally Posted by lavendermama
What would your argument for the Mormon faith be for someone deciding between Mormonism and becoming a Jehovah Witness? Didn't both founders receive a supposed revelation from God in relative recent history?
The biggest thing I see between the LDS church and other churches is our claim to priesthood power. After the Book of Mormon was translated, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were kneeling in pray and seeking the Lord's direction. They were visited by John the Baptist who ordained them with the priesthood of Aaron. A short time later they were visited by Peter, James, and John who conferred upon them the higher priesthood and the keys to the apostleship which they had held during their earlier dispensation.

I do not believe that a college degree, or a desire to preach gives one authority to do it. The ordinances of the gospel must be done by someone having authority.
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#34 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 06:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemmer
Galatians 1:8, in KJV:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

To me, this scripture simply warns us to beware of false doctrines. It isn't saying that all doctrines taught by an angel are false. Paul was simply warning the Galatians of doctrines that stray from the doctrines which he was teaching. As Latter-day Saints, we believe the Gospel as we understand it is in harmony with Paul's teachings, so I don't really see why this verse would pose a problem. HTH!

ITA
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#35 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 06:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lavendermama
a person from any faith can say this. Buddhists claim it, Mormons claim it, Christians claim it, Muslims claim it, etc. Does this mean there is in fact no true way-that all paths lead to God?

I believe that many many paths lead to God. I certainly do not believe that there will only be Mormons in heaven. Yes, Buddhists, Christians, and Muslims and others. We are all Heavenly Father's children. He loves us all and wants all of us to return to him.
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#36 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 06:41 PM
 
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Although I'm sure there were sex fiends...the original reason for plural marriage was to take care of women who did not have men to do so. To make sure children were taken care of when their fathers had passed on.

In any religion there are wierdos and sickos..you think that religious people can't be sickos too. Look at the Catholic priests! I don't dislike Catholisism for that reason either.

I'm not LDS and I do have my own questions, but I was not raised in the church and I don't have a testimony yet. I may never be a member, but I'm the last person to condemn a certain belief just because people in that religion made mistakes. The LDS church today does not practice plural marriage and is wonderful. As far as church history..you can only have so much documentation. Does it change?? oh ya. We get more accurate answers to everything (not just religion) everyday.

The LDS church has fed many families (not all members either), clothed, and participated in the community. My husband would have never become the man he is today without the church. His mom was a single parent (convert) and the boys had no father figure living with them, but the church was his family and he knows what a functional family is supposed to be. I am amazed every day at the wonderful person he is, and I have met the members of the church in which he grew up and now I know why he is an awesome man.

Anyway..so slam the religion if you must, but please remember that it isn't the only one out there that church history is incorrect in.
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#37 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 07:17 PM
 
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Lavendermama, I understand your point in using the Galations citation. I know many Christians throughout the world that would tend to think any scripture that came after the Bible (to include the Book of Mormon) would be considered another "gospel that was preached" outside or beyond the Bible. I know Christians (and other religion followers) that would consider the Book of Mormon to not be authentic and true because it is not the original holy book, the Bible.

Also, I have non-Mormon friends who do not accept the possibility that a modern day man (farm boy from New York) could be a latter-day prophet and do the work he professed to do, at the direction of God. To many Christians, this is equivalent to heresy.


Lavendermama, I hope I haven't being confusing in my posts. I was raised LDS by a devout LDS mother and an agnostic (christened Catholic) father. I have been in a questioning phase for most of my adult life. I am still partially actively involved in the LDS church but have found both the doctrine and the culture, at times, incompatible with my deep, core spiritual beliefs and political philosophy.

So, I struggle to know what my true spiritual path will be from now, at age 34, throughout the rest of my life. And I struggle to figure out how best to raise my children regarding the issue of religious indoctrination. I know I will shelter them from the guilt and shame religious indoctrination I rec'd from my mother (and maternal extended family) and the church community much more than my mother did, in terms of giving them the space and love to make their own spiritual choices... a gift I was not given from my own mother. Abandoning the LDS religion would further strain an already tenuous mother-daughter relationship. This may not be true for some LDS families, but many, I have found believe the LDS religion is the one and only true religion so when a family member chooses something else and leaves LDS practice, they are ostracized from the family.
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#38 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 07:19 PM
 
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Carolsly,

I'm sure polygamy on the grounds of marrying a woman so her children could be taken care of after a father has died was used as a valid justification for polygamy at the time. But it doesn't explain why Joseph Smith married so many teenage girls who were too young to have even had the opportunity yet to marry.
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#39 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 08:29 PM
 
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Here is a great link about the history of plural marriage within the LDS church for anyone who is interested.

http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=145
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#40 of 44 Old 02-16-2005, 09:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesarebrown
You know, it always bugged me that people always said Joseph Smith was harassed and arrested on "false charges" but never said what those charges were. When I found out they included charges of inappropriate sexual behavior with minors, I suddenly didn't feel so persecuted as a Mormon, and could understand why the communities that Mormons lived in were so upset about their presence there, in the same way that Mormons would join together against something they felt was an evil, immoral influence--like a smut shop as an example. Mormons would feel that would undermine the values of the community and put their children at risk of being exposed to innappropriate and potentially damaging material. Likewise, the communities around the Mormons were outraged by polygamy, felt it undermined marriage and family (which I agree), and didn't want Mormons around their kids. Now of course I don't think this justifies "extermination" by legal edict--as state and federal US governments ordered both for Mormons, Native Americans, and others, but I don't feel the same persecution complex that I was taught growing up LDS.
I agree that the people in the early church set themselves apart, and that created a lot of the problems that they incountered with the persecutions. However, Joseph and the people of the church were persecuted from the very begining....way before plural marriage ever came into it. The church was organized in 1830, and the persecutions started practically immediately. Joseph didn't record the revelation on plural marriage until 1843...less than a year before his death in 1844. I think most historians believe that he was praticing plural marriage secretly several years before the revelation was recorded. Even so, I bet that there were at least 10 years of persecutions before plural marriage ever even entered into the picture....murders, rapes, houses and farms razed and burned to the ground.

Even if some of the charges were what you describe(and I'm not saying they wern't ) he was never found guilty.

Like I said before, I don't think that Joseph was perfect...or any other prophet for that matter. I do believe in the work that he did though.
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#41 of 44 Old 02-17-2005, 01:55 PM
 
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I believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the Restoration. Okay, trite phrases aside, what I mean is that God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son both appeared to Joseph Smith when he prayed and asked what was the right church to join. I believe that from this beginning, Joseph was being prepared to restore the complete true gospel as taught by Jesus Christ, but lost after the aspostles of the New Testament passed away.

I can't understand why God would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son. And other examples that I have given. But in the scriptures the Lord says that he will tell us in our MIND and in our HEART what is truth, and it can be confirmed by the feeling of the Holy Spirit. That is what I rely on. I believe in the doctrine as presented by the leaders of the Church. But I don't just say, okay that's true. I read them over and over, pray about them, read my scriptures to compare.

And, both in my own family history and in other histories, I have read accounts of plural marriage where there was complete "fairness" and respect among all parties. I was very impressed by that, but yes, it has happened, and the wives even loved and supported each other.

Gotta go--sad baby.
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#42 of 44 Old 02-18-2005, 11:39 AM
 
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Does the fact that some plantation owners treated their slaves better than abusive masters justify slavery?
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#43 of 44 Old 02-18-2005, 02:21 PM
 
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Leaves, that is the perfect analogy. I was struggling to come up with one and your last post explains my perspective about how polygamy was harmful to women.

I perceive it to be a controlling practice that does more harm than could ever be justified, regardless of the reason given for implementing the practice. One common explanation I believe can be considered untruthful in many circumstances (JS marrying teenage girls and somehow the justification was "taking care of women" who had lost their husbands).

In my view, the concept of fairness (or justice) is antithetical to the concept of plural marriage. Fairness and justice are compatible with the empowerment of women in a monogamous marital union where fidelity (to each other, the two partners, and no one else) and respect are the foundation of relationship.
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#44 of 44 Old 03-01-2005, 02:47 AM
 
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I think we simply have to agree to disagree and respect each others' opinions.

I believe that Joseph Smith was never a fallen prophet, I believe that he never instituted into the Church as official doctrine anything that wasn't revealed by the Lord, and I cannot deny the confirmation I get by the Holy Spirit about this.

You believe something different, and I'm okay with that.

I also think that this discussion kind of co-opted the OP thread/questions. Maybe next time I'll try to remember to start a new thread.

I couldn't pursue this--family sickness.
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